What Democrats mean by paying your fair share of taxes

Clementine

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Dec 18, 2011
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They spend like drunken sailors and they want more money. Period. And they get it by convincing the low info voters that people somewhere are not paying their "fair share." There is no definition for 'fair share.' It's whatever they want to take at any given time and they foolishly chase businesses out of states and out of the country with tax hikes. Then they end up with even less revenue and their reponse is to raise taxes again and again........

Liberals don't seem to understand human nature. They see people as sheep or even as objects that can be manipulated easily. They never seem to grasp that people will react to their agenda. They expect people to go along without question, as with tax increases. They are always surprised when people want to protect what is rightfully theirs and take measures to keep their money. That is why so many companies have moved overseas. The left raises taxes, always claiming that people don't pay enough, and then are surprised when they end up with less revenue because people didn't dutifully hand over what they want without a fight. As the article points out, many jobs have left the country for more tax friendly nations. Sadly, the people who need those jobs are stuck here. The left is bashing Trump for giving reasonable tax breaks so people here can keep their jobs. That's how it should be done. It will mean more revenue in the long run. Shame that Dems can't figure out something so simple. I think the Washington Dems know damn well they are killing the economy and I think that is the goal. Their supporters just love believing that the political Robin Hoods are somehow stealing from the rich to help the poor. That never happens.

We need more revenue. We would have more money for infrastructure and other needs if we weren't funding hostile countries by handing them billions each year. Not to mention the billions on illegal aliens and the billions they want to spend on the economic refugees. Keeping businesses and jobs here would also mean more revenue.

How about we keep our money and fix what needs to be fixed in this country and then we can lower tax rates and keep more jobs here?


"It is one of the many signs of the mindlessness of our times that all sorts of people declare that “the rich” are not paying their “fair share” in taxes, without telling us concretely what they mean by either “the rich” or “fair share.” Whether in politics or in the media, words are increasingly used, not to convey facts or even allegations of facts, but simply to arouse emotions. Undefined words are a big handicap in logic, but they are a big plus in politics, where the goal is not clarity but victory — and the votes of gullible people count just as much as the votes of people who have common sense. What a “fair share” of taxes means in practice is simply “more.” No matter how high the tax rate is on people with a given income, you can always raise the tax rate further by saying that they are still not paying their “fair share.”

Advocates of higher tax rates can get very specific when they want to. A recent article in the New York Times says that raising the tax rate on the top one percent of income earners to 40 percent would generate “about $157 billion” a year in additional tax revenue for the government. This ignores mountains of evidence, going back for generations, showing that raising tax rates does not automatically mean raising tax revenues — and has often actually led to falling tax revenues. A fantasy expressed in numbers is still a fantasy. When the state of Maryland raised its tax rate on people with incomes of a million dollars a year or more, the number of such people living in Maryland fell from nearly 8,000 to fewer than 6,000. Although it had been projected that the tax revenue collected from such people in Maryland would rise by $106 million, instead these revenues FELL by $257 million. There was a similar reaction in Oregon and in Britain. Rich people do not simply stand still to be sheared like sheep. They can either send their money somewhere else or they can leave themselves.

Currently, there are trillions of dollars of American money creating jobs overseas, in places where tax rates are lower. It is easy to transfer money electronically from country to country. But it is not nearly so easy for unemployed American workers to transfer themselves to where the jobs have been driven by high tax rates. Conversely, there have been some reductions in high tax rates that brought in more tax revenues at the lower rates. This happened as far back as the Coolidge administration in the 1920s. It also happened in the Kennedy administration in the 1960s, the Reagan administration in the 1980s, and most recently in the Bush 43 administration. There was a similar reaction in Iceland.

There is nothing inevitable about either a higher or a lower amount of tax revenues, whether the revenues actually received depends on how people react, and you can know that only after the fact. Sophisticated projections have often been laughably wrong.

Contrary to the way some people on the left conceive of the world, neither rich people nor poor people are inert blocks of wood, to be moved about like pieces on a chess board, to carry out some grand design from on high. Even outright confiscations of people’s wealth, including whole industries in some countries, have failed to spread prosperity, and have even led to collapsing economies."

Read more at: What Democrats Mean by ‘Paying Your Fair Share’, by Thomas Sowell, National Review
 
Liberals are just not intelligent.

They do not understand why the homeless never benefit from a tax cut. Neither do those on welfare. Tax cuts are only for the rich. Never the poor.

As long as they don't understand this, there is no hope for them.
 
Simple, you want to use our roads, schools, military, police and enjoy our safetynet you should pay taxes.

The rich should pay by percentage of their income!!!

If you don't like it then find another country.
The rich do pay. The poor pay nothing. They never have.
 
Simple, you want to use our roads, schools, military, police and enjoy our safetynet you should pay taxes.

The rich should pay by percentage of their income!!!

If you don't like it then find another country.
The rich do pay. The poor pay nothing. They never have.
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.
 
Simple, you want to use our roads, schools, military, police and enjoy our safetynet you should pay taxes.

The rich should pay by percentage of their income!!!

If you don't like it then find another country.

They pay more than anyone else
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?
They only have this wealth because they are doing business in a country that is protected by a military of the people, they use a currency that has a perceived value which is managed by the treasury, and used in a free market capitalistic system that was designed by the collective to make a great society.
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?
They only have this wealth because they are doing business in a country that is protected by a military of the people, they use a currency that has a perceived value which is managed by the treasury, and used in a free market capitalistic system that was designed by the collective to make a great society.

And that entitles you to their money how, exactly?
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?
They only have this wealth because they are doing business in a country that is protected by a military of the people, they use a currency that has a perceived value which is managed by the treasury, and used in a free market capitalistic system that was designed by the collective to make a great society.

And that entitles you to their money how, exactly?
I didn't say anything about me taking anybodies money. I don't take anything from the government. I'm saying for our economic system to function there needs to be a healthy flow of wealth between the classes. If it gets too top heavy, like it is now, it can easily snowball into a much larger problem. We got a taste in 2008
 
The super rich buy Republican politicians and get them to cut their tax rate. Like Buffet says, it's not fair his secretary makes 50,000 and pays 25% or whatever in taxes while he pays close to zero.
A billionaire could pay millions and still be a billionaire. Their trucks use our roads. They use the sewers. They use the infrastructure. They paid for it in the 50's under Eisenhower. Why now are they so much better they don't have to?
Republicans say, but they pay so much. Yea, because they have so much. From buying politicians. Duh!
It always amazes me the determined ignorance of the right wing. What causes that. Look at history. The super rich paid then and no one was crying it's not fair.
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?
It's a socialist/progressive thing you wouldn't understand....
 
You need your daily dose of vitamin C or omega-3 fatty acids or something.

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About the Soulless Sowell
I can't believe you offered Sowell's ideas as indicative of your own. I cannot imagine that you actually favor his economic policy proposals. You might, but they are far from populist. They are super conservative, dispassionate, very pro business, and I mean big business, and are without exception "bite the bullet" ideas. Seriously, if you really ascribe to Sowell's economic policy positions, Trump is not "your guy" because his proposals are close to Sowell's in appearance only; they'll cherry pick his ideas, but that's it. And as any economist can tell you, cherry picked ideas from extremely right or left (neither of which is classical) economics just doesn't work.

Maybe you've read Basic Economics: A Citizen’s Guide to the Economy? (both volumes) It's essentially "principles of economics + Sowellian applications of them" at 10K feet. It's also one of Sowell's books that's well worth reading - after one has developed a mastery of classical economics because without that foundation, one won't know what's missing, what's not. Absent that foundation to give one perspective, it's a very convincing tome. The best analogy I can think of now is that it'd be like reading about cosmology before one understands basic physics. Basic Economics, comes pretty close to being a neutral exposition of what economists know about running the economy. There is no statement of fact, no statement of economic principle in this book with which I disagree. But the problem is not that his facts and the principles are misstated; they are the same ones in any econ text. It's that there's no balance in his editorial presentation of the issues of economic policy. The man literally sees only one side of the picture and simply does not deal with the rest of it. That's why one must know classical economics before reading Basic Economics.

Sowell's view of the market, per his editorial commentary in Basic Economics, is one in which the objectives of the state - stable economies, people working and being paid enough to live, workers and capitalists being well and accurately knowledgeable and trained about economics such that they routinely make truly rational (in fact, not merely because they think they are being rational) choices - and that of the market - profit - exist in competition with one another. But Sowell doesn't see the matter as circumstantial opposition, that is, opposition that is a consequence of each trying to maximize its effectiveness and thereby butting heads. No, he sees it as willful.

The fact of the matter is that he's just wrong on that. Business knows it needs the government and government leaders know they need successful businesses. We have had a valuable model of the interaction of markets and state for the past forty years, and in the past twenty years this has involved an impartial treatment of market successes and failure, as well as the successes and failure of state interventions. Sowell treats market vs. state as a competition in which the market is almost always "good" and the state intervention almost always a disaster.

By contrast, modern economic theory presents economic development as the joint growth and inextricable interaction of both state and market. We are trained to ask, in the face of a market failure, whether there is an appropriate remedy in the form of state intervention, but we are not predisposed to a negative answer. Indeed, the modern economy is precisely a synergistic interaction of state and market, with rather small deviations from a common model in all advanced countries.

Markets do well in dealing with highly decentralized informational systems, whereas states do well in making the rules of game followed by participants in market exchange. As soon as state attempt to produce goods and services, or predict winners and losers, they are out of their domain of comparative advantage, and do poorly. On the other hand, there is nothing in fact, or in economic theory, that supports the notion that market exchange can generate efficient and welfare-enhancing rules of the game.

Another example of Sowell's bias is his take on poverty and inequality. Sowell says very clearly that it is not right to take from those who have earned their income and wealth to give to those who have little. This right-wing principle is grotesque and bizarre. Humans have been redistributing material wealth since the time of our hunter-gatherer forbears. If a crumb is redistributed from a man with a surfeit of fine food to a starving child, this appears to be to be a just and fair act. Of course, taking from a hard-working family to support an antisocial drug addict might well be unfair, but that's a different story. The basic unfairness of the capitalist economy is that people are born into a particular economic station, and that station will severely affect their ability to realize their ambitions and exercise their human capacities for self-realization. There is no way to avoid this situation. Sowell completely ignores it.

Contemporary American liberals do not like Sowell's ideas because he vehemently defends free international trade, yet on that, I think Sowell is usually correct. On the other hand, there have been monstrously successful liberal program that Sowell simply does not acknowledge, such as social security, Medicare, EITC, and the welfare system. We need similar programs to deal with world poverty, domestic poverty, environmental destruction, and several other important social issues. The correct way to deal with these problems is to use the market system, but also to erect incentives that lead private individuals and firms to act on behalf of the public interest. Only a strongly synergistic pattern of market and state activity can conceivably succeed. Sowell's imbalance in favor of markets is, in this respect, part of the problem rather than part of the cure.

So what does Sowell think about Trump? Well, you decide for yourself. The short is that they are the same ones I do. Yes, I tend to concur with a fair quantity of Sowell's ideas; if my own self interest is the determining factor, I'd always prefer them because they work for my personal situation. As an economist, I know that now and I knew it before. The difference is that I'm willing to accept and admit that many of those policies are not going to be well received by a good portion (not the majority, thought) of the country. Sowell thinks they'll be good for everyone. Who won't they favor? Mostly the 15M - 20M who form Trump's base. I am okay with effectively "writing off" those people if it be that we were to implement Sowellian economic policy, and I'd tell them, "You know what. You won't like this. You should probably emigrate." Sowell knows it'll happen - his economic assumptions about rational choice and information (the same ones all economists make) necessitate it will - but he isn't willing to be so brutally honest.

Some may see Trump's success in business as a sign that he can manage the economy. But the great economist David Ricardo, two centuries ago, pointed out that business success did not mean that someone understands economic issues facing a nation.
- Thomas Sowell, "Do Emotions Trump Facts?"

many jobs have left the country for more tax friendly nations.

Firms will move their headquarters offshore so they can claim their revenue is earned offshore. They will also set up "office locations" in foreign locales for the same purpose, though those "offices" are often little other an a post box. That's what Apple and a lot of others have done.

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They don't move their factories for that reason because factories are cost units not revenue units.

Sales and production operations are separate units, and the jobs that people complain are being offshored are the low skill factory jobs, not the white collar sales and back office jobs. The U.S. has plenty of available sales and back office jobs, along with other skilled labor jobs. There is no job shortage in the U.S. On the last business day of October 2016, there were 5.5 million job openings.

Yes, companies often offshore "on paper" for tax reasons. They might move their HQ for tax reason, but that's rare. (Where is BH based? In the U.S. and it has ~25 employees in its Omaha HQ.) They don't relocate their primary production and design operations to new countries for tax reasons.

the people who need those jobs are stuck here.

Click the links above. Read what you find there. There's no need for them to go anywhere to get a job.

The left is bashing Trump for giving reasonable tax breaks so people here can keep their jobs.

The left is not complaining about Trump's proposed tax breaks. Yes, I'm sure someone on the left is bitching about them, that's inevitable. Are his tax break proposals the problem for most of the left? No, because most folks on the left are just as ignorant about the impact of them as are most of the right, so when they hear "tax cut," they think "oh, that's good."

I suspect that you can count on one hand the number of people on this forum who have fully read the various detailed analyses of Trump and Clinton's taxation proposals. The bulk of his tax plan deals with pass-through taxation, which is something very few people (relatively speaking) ever come across because, most pass-through earners are in the upper middle class and higher tax brackets, and most people are not in those brackets. Surely someone on this website posted a thread about how Trump's plan is highly favorable to pass-through earners?

It will mean more revenue in the long run.

Show me the math that shows that to be so....Don't just sit there tossing back cliches about liberals, Dems and lefties. Just show me some numbers and the methodology by which they were determined. It's not about liberal or conservative for me, at least not as go taxes and economic impacts. It's all about the numbers; they "add up" or they don't.

I can point you to some. (If you are like a lot of people on here who've been commenting about economic and money-related topics, I doubt you'll actually read all of what's there, but we'll see. I'll know by the nature of your comments because I have read it. I don't link to things I haven't read.) I suspect that you'll declare the Tax Foundation to be leftist, even though it's recognized as being somewhere between "business friendly" (hardly another term for "liberal") to non-partisan. The fact is that not everyone who disagrees with Trump is a leftist.
Tax impacts are routinely measured and analyzed. Any CPA or similarly trained person can do it. It takes more time to collect the data than it does to figure out what the impact of any given tax proposal will be. Once you have the raw data, however, figuring the impact of a tax change is just math, easy arithmetic math actually.

I think the Washington Dems know damn well they are killing the economy and I think that is the goal.

Aside from Obama's first two years, when did the Dems encounter anything other than obstruction from Republicans? For the most part, the policies we've lived with for the past 15 years are essentially Bush policies. You forget what state the national economy was in prior to Obama and when he took office. Take a look at what Bush vetoed and what got overridden. (Interestingly, Obama vetoed a bill that would have increased his and other presidents annual pension.)

Take a look at this. Who started with a surplus and ended with a deficit? Who started with a deficit and reduced it? Did either Bush or Obama have a consistent record of reducing the spending deficit? It's not about being partisan, it's about the numbers. They are what they are. You'll look at the chart that shows the debt rise under Obama from what it was under Bush. It did. If you look at the national debt over the past 50 years, basically it's never not increased. What about employment. Bush ran two wars and somehow managed not to keep unemployment stable/level.

We need more revenue. We would have more money for infrastructure and other needs if we weren't funding hostile countries by handing them billions each year. Not to mention the billions on illegal aliens and the billions they want to spend on the economic refugees. Keeping businesses and jobs here would also mean more revenue.

How about we keep our money and fix what needs to be fixed in this country and then we can lower tax rates and keep more jobs here?

How much money do you think we'll save in 2017 if we contributed none to foreign aid?

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And now that you've figured out how much we'd save, tell us what you'd do with all the ~$35M you don't want to see spent overseas. What would you "fix," exactly? How do you plan to propose the U.S. not lose any of its stature as a result of curtailing its largesse?
I'm asking so as to give you an explicit opportunity to take the lead and offers something substantive that advances a discussion rather than just being the person who's good for nothing other than complaining about finding fault with the decisions someone else has made. Didn't your mamma tell you that you only get to complain about what someone else is doing wrong if you have your own specific proposal of what they can do better.

This ignores mountains of evidence, going back for generations, showing that raising tax rates does not automatically mean raising tax revenues — and has often actually led to falling tax revenues

Yes, the past as prologue is an appealing notion; however, as support for an argument, it holds far less water than does today's vastly more refined gravity modeling techniques. But what specifically is wrong with it in Sowell's essay?
  • The very generations to which Sowell refers are the ones that ultimately led to the manufacturing exodus that all the Trumpkins are on about.
  • Those generations included years when revenue both increased and decreased in response variously to tax cuts and increases.
  • Huge tax cuts and increases have huge impacts.
  • People who have money (upper middle and higher gross earners) typically have passive and active income. The motivations for how they manage the locus of passive earnings can be tax driven. With active income (sales, wages and salaries) tax doesn't drive the decision of whether to earn it in the U.S. or outside the U.S., but it will drive, if they have the option, where outside the U.S. to earn it. (The same is so for nationals of all countries, it's just that their decision is between their country and elsewhere, just as ours is U.S. vs. elsewhere.)
Those ideas an more are all explained in gory detail here. Look very carefully at the charts and at the text. There are parts of it that can be deceiving. For example the chart about the Coolidge cuts. You'll notice they don't show the revenue figures during WWI, yet they talk about the 77% rate from that era.

That said, the top marginal rate of what was a very progressive tax structure was 77% in 1924 and it dropped to 25% in 1925. Was more revenue collected than before the dramatic cut? Nope.

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Kennedy implemented a similarly dramatic tax and it yielded a nice bump in revenue.

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As you can see, Sowell can choose his data to confirm his bias just as well as the next person can. I like the guy. I like a good deal of his economics. I know I have to check his shit just like I do everyone else's. I don't let anyone get away with presenting a bad argument, not even when I think the idea they espouse may be a good one. (Historic U.S. tax rates)

Now as goes Sowell (and you too, presumably) and his tax cuts, well, until he shows the impact on effective rates - drops in marginal rates don't necessarily have any impact on effective rates of payment, especially with small drops such as those Trump is pushing - I'm not buying into them. Most people, and certainly not businesses (which is the focus of your OP), don't pay at the marginal rate. On average, businesses pay at about 20%.
 
The vast majority of wealth in this country funnels to the top 1%, the "owners". Without a system that removes a good chunk of this money and distributes it back to the bottom tier, the 1% would soon control everything. There is a bigger economic picture at play here.

What right do you have to someone else's wealth?

Nobody has the right to someone else's wealth. Wealthy (enough) people have an obligation to help those (at least their fellow countrymen) who've been less fortunate, for whatever reason. For better or worse, the way our nation attempts to facilitate that happening is via money transfers. I happen to think direct personal shepherding is likely a more effective overall means of delivering the needed assistance and guidance; however, I know that not many wealthy people are going to engage on that level, preferring instead to delegate those activities to agencies and organizations ranging from charities and churches to governments that in turn contract aid workers to do it.

If I recall correctly, about 30% of the people in the U.S. are upper middle class, which is to say, they've figured out how to "make it." That amounts to about 97M individuals. That's approximately two "haves" for each of the 45M "have nots." It wouldn't bother me in the least to have the "haves" each take on the direct role of guiding and teaching the means and modes of successful and meritorious achievement/contribution to the "have nots" instead of having to have a system whereby we redistribute cash.

Clearly what I'd prefer to see happen isn't what happens. So the alternative, money transfers, is what we have.
 

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