What are the underlying principles of Modern liberalism?

[Bern80]

These debates too often get into silly minutiae that clarifies nada. America is a liberal nation, it started as a liberal nation - and while corporate or big media has too much power over the idea landscape today - we are are still a liberal nation. DADT among other recent acts of the people's government prove that conclusion. What would a conservative nation look like? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Egypt before last week? The only reason liberal is a bad word today is power likes power and liberal means change. Liberalism challenges power. Conservatism worships power. [I should note in all my posts I am referring to American style conservatism since the thirties.] Look only to the constant fight against the New Deal, an act that saved the nation and created the prosperity that has today made the prosperous conservatives. A weird turn of events as Tony Judt analyzes so well.

"For anyone born after 1945, the welfare state and its institutions were not a solution to earlier dilemmas: they were simply the normal conditions of life - and more than a little dull. The baby boomers, entering university in the mid sixties, had only ever known the world of improving life chances, generous medical and educational services, optimistic prospects of a upward social mobility and - perhaps above all - an indefinable but ubiquitous sense of security. The goals of an earlier generation of reformers were no longer of interest to their successors. On the contrary they were increasingly perceived as restrictions upon the self-expression and freedom of the individual." Tony Judt 'Ill Fares the Land'

There are so many slogans and rhetorical images in the conservative mind, countering them today is nearly impossible. They have become the frame or structure in which a conservative views and understands the world. Intense's post can be the starting point.

[You can't pursue Justice and Equal Outcome without doing disservice to one or the other. To give Freely what is needed or what you can is a Christian Principle. Caring is a Christian Principle. To take by force of Mandate is of Government, whether it is good or bad in part has to do with Consent, Purpose, Measure, Competence, and Effectiveness, I'm sure there is much more to it. Intentions by Itself does not Justify.

Games sometimes are played for the fun of playing, for the development of skill and ability, Equal Outcome effects the desire to play, to achieve. Modern Liberalism looses sight of the excitement of the game itself, too caught up in playing the role of the God it too often denies exists.

Modern Conservatism has more in common with Locke style Locke style Christianity and Classic Liberalism than Modern Liberalism, which does not Value the Individual, but the Collective.

What happened to the Value of Live and let live, Free to disagree, Freedom of Voice in decent, the Right to possess, the Right to decide for ones self? Hive think, in any form, starves Individual Conscience, it may put the Collective in a better light, but that is an illusion, smoke and mirrors, while the herd moves on blindly in one misdirection and then another, as one. You would have all of your Critics silenced rather than effect growth.

You can pursue justice and a fairer life for all. Why the heck not? Most liberals I know are Christians. Government is not a mandate, nice slogan word. Government is our representative power, it can do good or bad, we can only look back to the recent near financial collapse to see a good, even if you disagree. The country is stronger now. Games are for children, one can use the metaphor, but in the real world, life is not Sunday football. Government doesn't deny gawd, the analogy is irrelevant. But if children are starving, I'd like that the ref make the right call and help. Seems the Christian / religious thing to do. If one reads Locke today as a guide, then what happens to pragmatism, what happens to the game, seems kinda locked up. Modern conservatism is not classical liberalism, that's another empty analogy. No classical liberal would impose the many restrictions the right wing conservatives wants to define and impose on women and gays. Remember conservatism is primarily reactionary. Yes, what happened to the right to be free, same thing that always happens, it means whatever you want it to mean. And as a liberal I like that my elected government keeps an eye on things, saves me from having to, and allows a lot more freedom. Yes, what happened to the right to decide for yourself? Tell us, it your side that denies those rights. http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/50799-is-freedom-real.html


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Quote DB :: Speeches :: George Washington :: George Washington's Farewell Address Speech

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/50872-use-this-handy-parable-to-understand-politics.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/writing/50779-end-of-democracy.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/writing/103530-fact-paradox-and-random-musings.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/88682-a-conservative-wakes-up.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-f...-be-a-liberal-if-post1936599.html#post1936599

Then you remain one of the deluded who thinks todays liberal is anything like those of classical liberals. And equally deluded to believe that conservatism is supposed to have anything to do with control. You may like to say you're a freedom, individual liberty, limited government liberal just like the liberals of yore, but we know you are nothing of the sort. The closest thing to a classical liberal today is probably a libertarian.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

1: From each according to his means to each according to his needs.
2: The State is your saviour.

 

[Dawg]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

At the root of liberalism is one basic tenant. The life and freedom of the individual is of more value than the existence of the state. The words "liberal" and "liberty" are synonymous. Since the founding of America, the liberal has opposed the oppression of the common man by the privileged.
In the 20th century America began the experiment of using a Strong Federal Government to ensure the rights of its citizens. That experiment is now under assault once again by the privileged class, and seems to be on the verge of extinction.

 

[MonsterZero]

Fair working wages, as opposed to Limbaugh and Hannity who favor union busting.

"The Urban Institute reports that more than half of U.S. workers—52 percent—earn $25,000 or less annually. In the United States today, one in four workers earns $18,800 a year, or $360 a week, thereby qualifying as "working poor." They have jobs, but inadequate salaries and few if any benefits."

So what you are saying is that if we like Hannity, Limbaugh or Beck we are essentially slittling our own throats?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

1: From each according to his means to each according to his needs.
2: The State is your saviour.

Oh (insert your preferred Deity here), I think I just peed me kilt from laughing!

Thanks, laddie!

 

[AVG-JOE]

Then you remain one of the deluded who thinks todays liberal is anything like those of classical liberals. And equally deluded to believe that conservatism is supposed to have anything to do with control. You may like to say you're a freedom, individual liberty, limited government liberal just like the liberals of yore, but we know you are nothing of the sort. The closest thing to a classical liberal today is probably a libertarian.

As a political ideology, Liberalism is less than 200 years old. Sure, the fires of liberal thinking can be traced back to the Magna Carta , and the roots of "Liberalism" under that name (taken from the word 'liberty') stem from the French Revolution or so and what passed for political message boarding in the 1600's, but during the 19th century is when it grew into an 'ideology'.

Liberalism is way to young to have "classical" and "modern" camps that are polar opposites. Modern Socialists who call themselves Liberals are fools and modern Conservatives who call Socialists and Communists 'Liberal' are liars who are using misinformation and fear to remain in power.

Fuck the Fools and the Conservative Dick-taters.

 

[MSNY]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

They have no principles.

Just what this board needs. Another republican with no solutions, no game and nothing to say but "Fuck you".




Welcome to the board, Newbie.

Go flush yourself down the toilet liberal.
You dont like it, ignore is your option.
The respect you give, is the respect you get, asshat.

You have my attention now, your on my radar.

 

[AVG-JOE]

They have no principles.

Just what this board needs. Another republican with no solutions, no game and nothing to say but "Fuck you".




Welcome to the board, Newbie.

Go flush yourself down the toilet liberal.
You dont like it, ignore is your option.
The respect you give, is the respect you get, asshat.

You have my attention now, your on my radar.

I'm scared.

to America, brother - the internet you can speak your mind on!

That's quite a rant... Bad time of the month?


Ignore is not my only option... if you're gonna put me on your radar and stalk me I'm gonna stalk you right back. And I'll be looking for good spelling and grammar.

I like your use of punctuation and proper sentence structure but your content is a bit abrasive and your thoughts are extremely short. Dig deep and tell me how you really feeeeeeel about me.

( But don't tell Charlie! )​

I feel stalked.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

At the root of liberalism is one basic tenant. The life and freedom of the individual is of more value than the existence of the state. The words "liberal" and "liberty" are synonymous. Since the founding of America, the liberal has opposed the oppression of the common man by the privileged.
In the 20th century America began the experiment of using a Strong Federal Government to ensure the rights of its citizens. That experiment is now under assault once again by the privileged class, and seems to be on the verge of extinction.

Yeah early 20 centry progressives yeah those were the days.
We still have the federal reserve bank.
How is that working out?
How did the National education paln work did you get your docile maliable consumners you were looking for?
Yeah ya sure did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

At the root of liberalism is one basic tenant. The life and freedom of the individual is of more value than the existence of the state. The words "liberal" and "liberty" are synonymous. Since the founding of America, the liberal has opposed the oppression of the common man by the privileged.
In the 20th century America began the experiment of using a Strong Federal Government to ensure the rights of its citizens. That experiment is now under assault once again by the privileged class, and seems to be on the verge of extinction.

Wow. You really believe that?

The life and freedom of the individual is of more value than the existence of the state.

The Modern American liberal is a neo-socialist.
Among other socialist tenets, He supprts creating a condition of involuntary servitude among others so that "the underclass" might be provided the means to exercise their rights. Involuntary servitude is, of course, a form of slavery.

Slavery is the antithesis of liberty.

Thus, modern American liberalism is the antithesis of liberty.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The man who is now virtually synonymous with Progressivism, Herbert Croly (The Promise of American Life), was himself both the son of a noted proponent of Comtian positivism and the student of Harvard's Josiah Royce, a disciple of Hegel. All of these thinkers contributed to what would become the ethical foundation of the Progressive Movement: a contempt and loathing of "individualism" -- and its political expression in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution:

§ Croly: "The Promise of American Life is to be fulfilled ... by a large measure
of individual subordination and self-denial."

§ Sociologist Lester Ward: "The individual has reigned long enough."

§ Antitrust leader Henry Demarest Lloyd: Individualism is "one of the historic
mistakes of humanity."

§ The Outlook editor Lyman Abbott: "ndividualism is the characteristic of
simple barbarism, not of republican civilization."

§ Baptist minister Walter Rauschenbusch: "ndividualism means tyranny."




Podesta Says Value-Added Tax ‘More Plausible’ as Deficits Grow

\Who Is John Podesta ?2

Sept. 25 (Bloomberg) -- John Podesta compared the nation’s current budget crisis to the situation former President Bill Clinton faced in 1993 and said some form of a value-added tax is “more plausible today than it ever has been.”

“There’s going to have to be revenue in this budget,” said Podesta, Clinton’s former chief of staff and co-chairman of President Barack Obama’s transition team, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television’s “Political Capital with Al Hunt,” airing today.

A so-called consumption tax would “create a balance” with European and Japanese economies and “could potentially have a substantial effect on competitiveness,” said Podesta. Value- added taxes in Europe and Japan encourage savings by taxing consumption.

Podesta said such a tax may be regressive, but can be balanced by exempting some products and using “the money to support low-wage workers.”

Podesta Says Value-Added Tax ‘More Plausible’ as Deficits Grow - Bloomberg.com


Why not ? All those great powerhouse economies in Europe have one.

CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS (CAP)

Think tank run by Hillary Clinton and former Clinton chief of staff John Podesta
Helped launch Media Matters For America in 2004


The Center for American Progress (CAP) describes itself as "a nonpartisan research and educational institute" aimed at "developing a long-term vision of a progressive America" and "providing a forum to generate new progressive ideas and policy proposals."

Robert Dreyfuss reports in the March 1, 2004 edition of The Nation: "The idea for the Center began with discussions in 2002 between [Morton] Halperin and George Soros, the billionaire investor. … Halperin, who heads the office of Soros' Open Society Institute, brought [former Clinton chief of staff John] Podesta into the discussion, and beginning in late 2002 Halperin and Podesta circulated a series of papers to funders."

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6709

 

[Big Fitz]

Ever seen "Rope" by Alfred Hitchcock?

Exposes the ultimate endgame of liberalism in the actions of the two former students at the center of the movie.

Rope (1948) - IMDb

 

[Avatar4321]

What are the underlying principles of Modern liberalism?

Power to the people.

If that is the case, why do so many liberal policies empower government at the expense of empowered people?

 

[Avatar4321]

Underlying principle...

Find what's broke.........Fix it

Then why are you so opposed to cutting our spending? Our nation is broke. only thrift and industry can fix that.

 

[shintao]

Id prefer to hear the answer from liberals themselves. I want to see what they say their underlying principles are.

1: From each according to his means to each according to his needs.
2: The State is your saviour.

Millions of laid off conservative families in America are saying that today. How do you answer them when their child goes hungry in front of their eyes, or is sleeping in a tent down by the river and not in that cozy warm home they once proudly owned??

 

[JFK_USA]

1. We believe in equal opportunity.

2. We believe that just because you're poor, doesn't mean you don't work hard.

3. We believe you have the right as a group to negiotiate your own wage and benefits.

4. We believe that the rich don't do whats best for the country as a whole and feel that leaving them unregulated will lead them to screw the American People.

5. We believe that all people are created equal and should not have their government treat them differently (Jim Crow laws, Gay Marriage bans).

6. We believe that a progressive tax system is the best system because people who have the means to pay for roads, teachers, police and fire departments but all should have access to these services.

7. We believe that finding alternative energy sources is the only way to free ourselves from oil. BTW, when an oil companies drills the oil, its own by them and they can sell it anywhere. So this "Drill baby Drill" will never help fend off our dependency of oil.

8. We believe that if you fall down, you should have the resources available to you to get back up.

9. We believe that all people should have access to healthcare, to live a full life.

10. We believe that America is a great place but its not infalliable, it has flaws. Just because we see flaws doesn't mean this isn't a great country. Its better than most but doesn't mean it does everything great.

11. We believe that people should have clean water, eat food that won't make them sick, and have the ability to see the great wilderness of our country. Not just do want businesses want to do, which is to cut cost and if it kills people, who cares.
Thats what I believe.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Blah blah blah
we believe if it sounds good people will ignore the policies no matter how badly they hurt families and business.

 

[JFK_USA]

Blah blah blah
we believe if it sounds good people will ignore the policies no matter how badly they hurt families and business.

Yawn, it actually doesn't. Not as much as no police and fire department because government is so horrible.

 

[AVG-JOE]

1. We believe in equal opportunity.

2. We believe that just because you're poor, doesn't mean you don't work hard.

3. We believe you have the right as a group to negiotiate your own wage and benefits.

4. We believe that the rich don't do whats best for the country as a whole and feel that leaving them unregulated will lead them to screw the American People.

5. We believe that all people are created equal and should not have their government treat them differently (Jim Crow laws, Gay Marriage bans).

6. We believe that a progressive tax system is the best system because people who have the means to pay for roads, teachers, police and fire departments but all should have access to these services.

7. We believe that finding alternative energy sources is the only way to free ourselves from oil. BTW, when an oil companies drills the oil, its own by them and they can sell it anywhere. So this "Drill baby Drill" will never help fend off our dependency of oil.

8. We believe that if you fall down, you should have the resources available to you to get back up.

9. We believe that all people should have access to healthcare, to live a full life.

10. We believe that America is a great place but its not infalliable, it has flaws. Just because we see flaws doesn't mean this isn't a great country. Its better than most but doesn't mean it does everything great.

11. We believe that people should have clean water, eat food that won't make them sick, and have the ability to see the great wilderness of our country. Not just do want businesses want to do, which is to cut cost and if it kills people, who cares.
Thats what I believe.

Dude, you're not a liberal with those lines, you're a social democrat. A valued voice in the discussion, to be certain - but not liberal.

 

[midcan5]

Ultimately the only answer comes from the pudding. Is it good or bad, does it help all citizens. We only have to look at the economic collapse under republicans since Hoover to know the answer. Arguing with believers about this thing they believe: conservative magic, is a vain effort. Belief is often not rational. But still progress moves forward slowly in spite of the naysayers.

"Ideas have power – as long as they are not frozen in doctrine. But ideas need legs. The eight-hour day, the minimum wage, the conservation of natural resources and the protection of our air, water, and land, women's rights and civil rights, free trade unions, Social Security and a civil service based on merit – all these were launched as citizen's movements and won the endorsement of the political class only after long struggles and in the face of bitter opposition and sneering attacks. It's just a fact: Democracy doesn't work without citizen activism and participation, starting at the community. Trickle down politics doesn't work much better than trickle down economics. It's also a fact that civilization happens because we don't leave things to other people. What's right and good doesn't come naturally. You have to stand up and fight for it – as if the cause depends on you, because it does. Allow yourself that conceit - to believe that the flame of democracy will never go out as long as there's one candle in your hand." This is Your Story - The Progressive Story of America. Pass It On.

"Ideally citizens are to think of themselves as if they were legislators and ask themselves what statutes, supported by what reasons satisfying the criterion of reciprocity, they would think is most reasonable to enact." John Rawls


What it means to be a liberal - Chicago Tribune