What are 'legalistic' Christians?

[Sky Dancer]

I saw the term used in reference to WBC and I don't understand it. Help.

 

[Valerie]

Probably in reference to the fact that he and I think a couple of his kids are lawyers who constantly push the legal envelope with what they do...?

Fred Waldron Phelps, Sr. (born November 13, 1929) is an American pastor heading the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), an independent Baptist church based in Topeka, Kansas. Phelps is a disbarred lawyer, founder of the Phelps Chartered law firm, a past civil rights activist in Kansas, and a Democrat who has five times been a candidate for political office in Kansas Democratic Party primaries.

Phelps's followers frequently picket various events, such as military funerals, gay pride gatherings, high-profile political gatherings, university commencement ceremonies, performances of The Laramie Project, mainstream Christian gatherings and concerts with which he had no affiliation, arguing it is their sacred duty to warn others of God's anger.

In response to Phelps' protests at military funerals, President George W. Bush signed the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act into law in May 2006,[1] and, in April 2007, Kansas governor Kathleen Sebelius signed into law a bill establishing a 150-foot no-picketing buffer zone around funerals.[2]

He is known for the slogans that he and his ministry use against people he deems sinful; his church is built around a core of anti-homosexual theology, with many of their activities stemming from the slogan "God hates fags", which is also the name of the group's main website.[3] Gay rights supporters have denounced him as a producer of anti-gay propaganda and violence-inspiring hate speech.[4] The church is considered by and monitored as a hate group by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center.[5][6][7]

Fred Phelps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Valerie]

Which has nothing to do with being Christian, BTW...So I may be wrong on the meaning of that term...

 

[Marie888]

I saw the term used in reference to WBC and I don't understand it. Help.

From what I’ve learned so far, part of it.... is when people are like the “Pharisees”, who taught this and that, who bragged of themselves, thought they were “holier than thou”, pompous, hyprocritical, when in themselves, they were sinners too.

For example, Jesus gave this parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Luke 18
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

He’s saying that we’re all sinners. He’s saying that these Pharisees are “false” because He knows they’ve sinned also. Yet they bragged falsely that they didn’t sin and/or gave all this glory to themselves, puffed themselves up. T

he truth was in what the Tax Collector said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” That is why the Tax Collector was justified; he knew that God is God, he called Him by name, and asked Him to have mercy on him, a sinner.

It goes with other verses that our righteousness does not come of “ourselves” as we’ve all sinned. It comes through Jesus Christ, He alone is our righteousness.

I’ll share more personal…. I’ve done wrong and at times been “legalistic”. I’ve been prideful. I’ve looked down my nose at others and didn’t even realize I was doing it. It’s SO wrong and I’m sorry every time I catch myself doing it – or rather the Lord shows me and disiplines me. None of us are better than one another. As His Word says, “all fall short”. I’m sure the Lord will show me that I’m doing it again too – which is good, I need the correction. But it’s that “flesh” nature, a “self” thing, where we want to be “right” and sometimes even fight tooth and nail, when we know we are wrong anyhow, but sometimes fight just because of that “flesh.”

The Lord has always corrected me though and I pray He continues to. It’s humiliating as heck though, embarrassing too, LOL, and even hurts! It’s like being “pruned” – it doesn’t feel good at the time, but the end result is a lot nicer.

For me, He shows me my sin, and even by showing me the parable in these verses helps me to understand. It is written that our “righteousness” does not come from ourselves, but through Jesus Christ alone. (Because we’ve all fallen short, we’ve all sinned)

The moment we start thinking we’re holier than thou, get pompous, or even think we’re doing “all good”, is the moment we can started to be prideful and may even sin.

We can be prideful simply by not “loving” others and thinking we are “better:. That just goes to show the sin and the parable. We will all fail at loving others sometimes. None of us are perfect. It’s not like we know everything in life, we are all constantly learning. The key is that through Jesus Christ we’ve got to forgive each other to move on and restore, (as He has forgiven us) which isn’t easy when we are so hurt by what the other person said or did. Which makes us lash out at others sometimes. But Jesus helps us with that.

Forgiveness and love is the key. Realizing Jesus Christ our Lord's forgiveness and that I didn’t deserve it… and then that I myself sin or hurt others at times, so who the heck am I to NOT forgive someone else?


VIP --- This is not say though that we define something as “not a sin.” God makes clear what is sin and isn’t. He wants to take us away from it because all sin hurts us and others. But "struggling" with a sin, admitting it, knowing we've sinned against Him and wanting to stop, turning away - that’s all part of repentance, and the Lord helps us with that, thank Him so much.

I hope that helps, I’m sure others will add also.



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[Avatar4321]

The context I usually see it in, a "legalistic" Christian is one who actually thinks it's important to keep God's commandments. (Can't imagine where they got that idea). Usually in a way where they are doing so in a Holier than thou mindset.

My experience that those who accuse others of legalistic are usually people who, for whatever reason, don't want to keep God's commandments and want an excuse. Though there are times when people are legitimately focused too much on rules rather than the Spirit behind the rules.

Regardless, Keep the commandments.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I saw the term used in reference to WBC and I don't understand it. Help.

True Christians have little to do with the law or Government. Both are run by man and Christians are to follow Jesus and God.

 

[Mini 14]

Isn't Phelps a lawyer himself? Or maybe his wife?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Isn't Phelps a lawyer himself? Or maybe his wife?

In an above post, he is a disbarred lawyer.

 

[kwc57]

Here is a decent link on legalism.

Confessions of a Recovering Legalist

 

[emilynghiem]

I saw the term used in reference to WBC and I don't understand it. Help.

Dear Sky: With any set of laws, there is the letter of the law and there is the spirit of the law. People can get "legalistic" by arguing over the letter.

EX: TECHNICALLY by the written Constitution, only certain government entities are required to follow the Bill of Rights. City Councils or Municipal Courts are not directly under the written Constitution. But in spirit, ANY person acting in capacity of government should ideally respect the Bill of Rights without having to be sued in court over an infraction before a judge orders it in writing! So there is the spirit of the law, which if followed, would automatically fulfill the letter of the law as well.

Same is true with the Bible.
The Old Testament establishes the letter of the law, the Ten Commandments, etc.
The New Testament restores the spirit of the law, based on truth and love, justice with mercy instead of retribution, and charity and grace/forgiveness for all so that all corrections may be made, all debts redeemed, all wrongs made right, and peace and justice realized on earth for all humanity.

If we haggle over the letter of the law, whether with divine laws of the church or civil laws of the state, then we become legalistic. This can be good if it is used properly for CORRECTION. But when it becomes so divisive that it defeats the purpose of bringing corrections and just start blame wars and competition instead of cooperation, that is when being legalistic becomes negative.

It is ironic that when someone is legalistic in our favor, we welcome this.
But tend to reject when the arguments are made against us.

This I call "Old Testament" behavior, where we tend to excuse or justify our own beliefs or actions by the letter of the law, but then apply it to incriminate the faults of our neighbor. It is all part of the human learning curve, as we eventually learn to mutually forgive and correct our faults together as equals, not as combatants competing to make one side right and the other wrong. When we seek corrections together, that is when we fulfill both the spirit of the laws and the letter, and resolve any conflicts in the process.

 

[FuelRod]

I think hypocrites is a good definition.
Usually measuring the weight of one "sin" against another...when the Word states clearly sin is the same in the eyes of God.

 

[emilynghiem]

I think hypocrites is a good definition.
Usually measuring the weight of one "sin" against another...when the Word states clearly sin is the same in the eyes of God.

As long as you are pointing out we all have equal capacity for this, which is true!

Otherwise, if people take the position that "they" can see the hypocrisy in other people more than themselves, it furthers the same hypocrisy - of excusing or justifying what is convenient or benefits us, while projecting the problem as someone else's responsibility outside of our control. If we recognize we all do this, then we can do something about it.

You make a good point as to why this pattern is still going on.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I googled the term, 'christian legalism' and came up with this:

Christian Legalism - The Dark Side of Christianity

Not sure what I think of it. I'm more confused than ever.

 

[FuelRod]

I'm more concerned with licentious Christians.

 

[Sky Dancer]

OK, as near I can tell, legalism means a strict adherence to rules and regulations as opposed to grace.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm more concerned with licentious Christians.

Why? Who are these 'licentious' Christians?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Here ya go Sky......from wikipedia......

Legalism, in Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption. Its opposite is the doctrine of Sola Fide, which is the traditional Protestant view that believing in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for receiving eternal life.

And here's yet another one........

There is one side of Christianity that waters down the gospel and makes following Jesus some self improvement program for the successful. It is attractive to Western pseudo Christians looking for some purpose to a materialistic way of life. Meanwhile, thousands of real Christians are dying for their faith in Jesus Christ all over the world while these success motivated “Christians” listen to humanistic teachings and belly up to their church cappuccino bar.


I have already said plenty about this postmodern side of Christianity with its seeker friendly church programs and emergent church doctrines. I also wrote an article about the rising influence of psychology and the dominionists in Christianity who see a triumphant church ruling in the earthly domain of Satan. Yet, there is even a darker side of Christianity that few are talking about. Some in this darker side are the same ones who criticize the seeker friendly postmodern salvation lite message - so be very careful about the doctrine you receive. Nevertheless, the fact that there is a darker side in Christianity is not an excuse for anyone to accept the errors of those who water down and dumb down Christian doctrine and paganize Christianity with “New Age” concepts that lead most of Christianity down the path to Laodicea (lukewarm Christianity).



This darker side of Christianity makes Christianity something to be achieved by following doctrines from men who never understood the plan of salvation in the first place. These men believe salvation comes by obedience to keeping commandments and by following certain rules or rituals of practice. For want of a better term, I will call this dark side of Christianity "legalism".


When I say these are legalistic, I am not talking about those who believe every word of scripture and apply them in such a way that can be supported in the light of all of scripture. The Christian legalists I am talking about are those who take certain passages of scripture to imply the Bible says something that really cannot be supported in its full light. I am talking about those who try to conform to the letter without having the Holy Spirit so that they are unable to apply the scriptures with any wisdom or understanding. They are like some modern lawyers of our day who often twist the truth on purpose to achieve their desired outcome of deception.

Christian Legalism - The Dark Side of Christianity

From what I've been able to figure out, they're kinda like the modern day Puritans.

Only trouble is........they cherry pick what applies to them, but it all applies to everyone else.

Basically.........a Christian cult.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I'm more concerned with licentious Christians.

Why? Who are these 'licentious' Christians?

Jerry Falwell and Jim Baker come readily to mind.

It means they like having sex outside of marriage.

 

[FuelRod]

I'm more concerned with licentious Christians.

Why? Who are these 'licentious' Christians?

Licentious Christians view their salvation as a "license" to continue to commit sin rather than striving to be more like Christ.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I'm more concerned with licentious Christians.

Why? Who are these 'licentious' Christians?

Licentious Christians view their salvation as a "license" to continue to commit sin rather than striving to be more like Christ.

Yep.......those are the ones that like to say "I'm saved and Jesus has wiped my slate clean", and then go back and do the same stupid behavior over again.

Interesting thing about forgiveness, by the way. Being forgiven means that you know you did something wrong, you're sorry for what you did, and you go clean up the mess, and then (here's where most Christians get it wrong) YOU DON'T DO IT AGAIN!!!!!

I mean.......in AA (I was a drug and alcohol counselor for 8 years in the Navy), they talk about making amends, and it was explained to me quite simple.

In making an amend, you need to go to the person you've wronged, apologize to them, make restitution to them, and then don't do it again.

If you walk up to someone and steal their wallet, then return it empty and say "I'm sorry", the person will be upset. However......if you keep doing it, eventually that person will want to have nothing to do with you.

Same with God and forgiveness by the way, because yeah, He understands that nobody is gonna get it right the first time and you're gonna make mistakes. But, asking for forgiveness and then going back out and doing the same thing over shows that you really aren't sorry, and are just using God as a get out of jail free card.

Kinda disrespectful to Him by the way.

And, everyone should also know that the original sin that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden of Eden wasn't eating the fruit of the tree, it was lying to God about eating it.