We win the debate and health care is still going through?

[ihopehefails]

I'll try to make it simple:

It's impossible for a rep to know exactly what his districts "will" is. The system is designed so that people will vote for the person that matches them best, and whoever seems to match the most people in the district will win. Then, that person is expected to vote their conscience (or wallet, as most seem to do now, since we don't ever vote out incumbents).
The catch in the system is the term - 2 years or 6. So, according to the design of our system, if a representative strays from the will of his or her constituents, they get voted out of office.

So if you're right, and such a huge number of people disagree with the health care plan, then they'll all get voted out next year.

But we both know that that won't happen. Incumbents win 90% of the time.

I actually believe they should vote my conscience and not theirs.

But what about your neighbor? Doesn't his conscience count too? What if his conscience is exactly the opposite of yours? He's got the same rep as you - does his will not count?

Majority rules.

 

[ihopehefails]

The point is, there are far too many variables in this for a rep to know what the majority of his constituents want. By all means, make phone calls, send letters, go to protests. Those are all ways of telling your representative what you want. But don't call it tyranny when they don't agree with you. It's not tyranny, its just the way our Republic works.

I don't call it tyranny when you happen to lose in a popular vote such as W's social security reform. I thought it was a good idea but our side lost and it was dropped. I was OK with that because our side was in the minority but I do get upset when people in power can just veto what the majority of people want.

The point is, there is no accurate way to know what the majority of people want. And don't say polling - can you imagine a world where decisions are made via a Zogby poll?

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Why is the question never "How does he know what the people of New York want?" instead of trying to ascertain what is best for them.

So, there you go. A very good question.

How would he know what the people of New York want?

There is a list of tools available such as phones, polls, protest letters, and just plain gut instinct telling you the people don't want this when they burn your image in effagy on the streets.

For the sake of the example, you know that a majority of New Yorkers support the reform, right?

I know from personal experience that you can change a politician's mind by writing letters - but you need thousands and thousands of letters, and most people are too lazy.

Listen, I don't like the health reform plan either (for a very different reason than you, I'm sure, but nevertheless, I don't support the current plan) but lets try and calm the rhetoric down a little. This is how our system works, and sometime it doesn't work out the way you want it to.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I don't call it tyranny when you happen to lose in a popular vote such as W's social security reform. I thought it was a good idea but our side lost and it was dropped. I was OK with that because our side was in the minority but I do get upset when people in power can just veto what the majority of people want.

The point is, there is no accurate way to know what the majority of people want. And don't say polling - can you imagine a world where decisions are made via a Zogby poll?

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

BINGO!

That's how our system works!

Except that people as a whole don't like change, and never seem to vote anyone out of office.

 

[obama2ndterm]

Ihope he fails? That is about as unAmerican as they come.

 

[ihopehefails]

So, there you go. A very good question.

How would he know what the people of New York want?

There is a list of tools available such as phones, polls, protest letters, and just plain gut instinct telling you the people don't want this when they burn your image in effagy on the streets.

For the sake of the example, you know that a majority of New Yorkers support the reform, right?

I know from personal experience that you can change a politician's mind by writing letters - but you need thousands and thousands of letters, and most people are too lazy.

Listen, I don't like the health reform plan either (for a very different reason than you, I'm sure, but nevertheless, I don't support the current plan) but lets try and calm the rhetoric down a little. This is how our system works, and sometime it doesn't work out the way you want it to.

Have you ever thought of changing the minds of your fellow citizens so they will write the letters.

 

[ihopehefails]

Ihope he fails? That is about as unAmerican as they come.

Its not possible to be un-american because it implies that my nation of birth is somehow altered because I don't support the current president's policies and that is not possible.

 

[The T]

The point is, there is no accurate way to know what the majority of people want. And don't say polling - can you imagine a world where decisions are made via a Zogby poll?

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

BINGO!

That's how our system works!

Except that people as a whole don't like change, and never seem to vote anyone out of office.

As Long as their Reps get their 'Sweetheart Deals" paid for by the Other States? No Shit.

I see talk of Succession by many...and outright insurrection by many I speak to daily. They're FED UP.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

There is a list of tools available such as phones, polls, protest letters, and just plain gut instinct telling you the people don't want this when they burn your image in effagy on the streets.

For the sake of the example, you know that a majority of New Yorkers support the reform, right?

I know from personal experience that you can change a politician's mind by writing letters - but you need thousands and thousands of letters, and most people are too lazy.

Listen, I don't like the health reform plan either (for a very different reason than you, I'm sure, but nevertheless, I don't support the current plan) but lets try and calm the rhetoric down a little. This is how our system works, and sometime it doesn't work out the way you want it to.

Have you ever thought of changing the minds of your fellow citizens so they will write the letters.

Yeah, it's my job, in fact. Community Organizer.

 

[ihopehefails]

The point is, there is no accurate way to know what the majority of people want. And don't say polling - can you imagine a world where decisions are made via a Zogby poll?

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

BINGO!

That's how our system works!

Except that people as a whole don't like change, and never seem to vote anyone out of office.

Yes that is how the system works but the people in power are suppose to guess at what the people want on any issue. They are not suppose to do what they want.

 

[ihopehefails]

For the sake of the example, you know that a majority of New Yorkers support the reform, right?

I know from personal experience that you can change a politician's mind by writing letters - but you need thousands and thousands of letters, and most people are too lazy.

Listen, I don't like the health reform plan either (for a very different reason than you, I'm sure, but nevertheless, I don't support the current plan) but lets try and calm the rhetoric down a little. This is how our system works, and sometime it doesn't work out the way you want it to.

Have you ever thought of changing the minds of your fellow citizens so they will write the letters.

Yeah, it's my job, in fact. Community Organizer.

And you are free to do that.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

BINGO!

That's how our system works!

Except that people as a whole don't like change, and never seem to vote anyone out of office.

Yes that is how the system works but the people in power are suppose to guess at what the people want on any issue. They are not suppose to do what they want.

"Supposed to" doesn't mean anything. All there is is the law, and the system. If you think that your rep did something that they weren't supposed to do, then don't vote for them next time. Or, if your state allows it, recall them. But don't call it a dictatorship.

 

[jillian]

Almost 2/3 of people oppose health care reform proposed by yet it is going through anyways. We win the debate and it still is getting done. This is not democracy. This is a dictatorship.

you don't live in a democracy. you live in a republic. you lost an election. elections have consequences. 365 electoral votes worth of consequences.

and most of the people "opposed" to the proposal are opposed BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Have you ever thought of changing the minds of your fellow citizens so they will write the letters.

Yeah, it's my job, in fact. Community Organizer.

And you are free to do that.

Yes I am.

 

[ihopehefails]

I know but they can guess at what the people want and if they guess wrong then they don't get re-elected.

BINGO!

That's how our system works!

Except that people as a whole don't like change, and never seem to vote anyone out of office.

As Long as their Reps get their 'Sweetheart Deals" paid for by the Other States? No Shit.

I see talk of Succession by many...and outright insurrection by many I speak to daily. They're FED UP.

I support sucession as legal right of the states as a last ditch tool that prevents the federal government from encroaching on state sovriegnty or I believe in the Robert E. Lee's vision of a voluntary union.

 

[jillian]

Ihope he fails? That is about as unAmerican as they come.

Its not possible to be un-american because it implies that my nation of birth is somehow altered because I don't support the current president's policies and that is not possible.

Wanting your country to fail is unamerican.

I thought bush was a moron.I'd have been happy had he succeeded....

unlike anti-americans like you.

 

[Immanuel]

So, there you go. A very good question.

How would he know what the people of New York want?

There is a list of tools available such as phones, polls, protest letters, and just plain gut instinct telling you the people don't want this when they burn your image in effagy on the streets.

For the sake of the example, you know that a majority of New Yorkers support the reform, right?

I know from personal experience that you can change a politician's mind by writing letters - but you need thousands and thousands of letters, and most people are too lazy.

Listen, I don't like the health reform plan either (for a very different reason than you, I'm sure, but nevertheless, I don't support the current plan) but lets try and calm the rhetoric down a little. This is how our system works, and sometime it doesn't work out the way you want it to.

One problem with this is that once this becomes law, there will be no turning back.

If the public option gets put in during the reconciliation process and this becomes law, private health insurance will become a thing of the past, hundreds of thousands of jobs in that industry alone will be lost, hundreds of billions of tax dollars will be collected and cast into the general fund, four years later Uncle Sam might begin paying benefits but in the mean time, while you are being taxed by Uncle Sam, you or your employer will still have to be paying for your own coverage.

Medical professionals will begin seeking new professions and the American public will be in a world of hurt.

And if you do not comply with Nancy Pelosi's mandate that you become insured and you make more, I think it is four times (I believe) the poverty level ($21,200 X 4 = $84,800 in 2008) then you go to jail. If your employer refuses to comply with Nancy's mandate they will be fined 8% of their payroll and this in itself will drive a lot of small businesses out of business.

Once the plan takes effect, it will be too late to back up and punt.

edit: Whoops! Here is the link to the poverty numbers:

http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_825.html

The U.S. government measures poverty by a narrow income standard that does not include other aspects of economic status, such as material hardship (for example, living in substandard housing) or debt, nor does it consider financial assets (including savings or property). The official poverty measure is a specific dollar amount that varies by family size but is the same across the continental U.S. According to the guidelines, the poverty level in 2008 is $21,200 a year for a family of four and $17,600 for a family of three (see table). 1 The poverty guidelines are used to determine eligibility for public programs. A similar but more complex measure is used for calculating poverty rates.

Immie

 

[Meister]

Almost 2/3 of people oppose health care reform proposed by yet it is going through anyways. We win the debate and it still is getting done. This is not democracy. This is a dictatorship.

you don't live in a democracy. you live in a republic. you lost an election. elections have consequences. 365 electoral votes worth of consequences.

and most of the people "opposed" to the proposal are opposed BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH.

I would like to see your source on this claim, Jillian. This would be the first that I've heard of this.

 

[ihopehefails]

Almost 2/3 of people oppose health care reform proposed by yet it is going through anyways. We win the debate and it still is getting done. This is not democracy. This is a dictatorship.

you don't live in a democracy. you live in a republic. you lost an election. elections have consequences. 365 electoral votes worth of consequences.

and most of the people "opposed" to the proposal are opposed BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH.

I keep hearing this as if a republic means that a government can veto the will of the people.

 

[ihopehefails]

Ihope he fails? That is about as unAmerican as they come.

Its not possible to be un-american because it implies that my nation of birth is somehow altered because I don't support the current president's policies and that is not possible.

Wanting your country to fail is unamerican.

I thought bush was a moron.I'd have been happy had he succeeded....

unlike anti-americans like you.

Again, how is the personal wishes of the success of any politician negate my nation of birth?

I forgot, Bush was a complete failure. Its been repeated over and over since day 1.

Why is it people on the left love their leaders but hate their country?