Was the 2020 Election Stolen?

[Jarlaxle]

The problem is, voting for a government has two very distinct considerations, which have nothing to do with each other, and they are in tension with each other:

(1) Consent of the governed. Allowing everyone to have a chance to have their interests defended, to exert influence, to keep the ruling powers from just doing whatever they like. Taxing all left-handed red-heads, for example ... give the left-handed red-heads a vote, and that's less likely to happen. If someone is not allowed to influence what laws exist, then why, morally, should they obey them? Just force majeure? This is the 'moral' argument for the universal franchise.

(2) Getting the 'best' government, the wisest one. Here is where the argument comes from for restricting the franchise to property owners, to males, to high school graduates, to those who can read .. people in government face difficult problems ... surely they should be chosen by thoughtful, intelligent, responsible individuals ... not low-IQ naifs who will vote for the politician who promises them the most free stuff.

This is why 19th Century liberals like Thomas Babbington Macaulay were in favor of restricting the vote. It's why even Leftists, sometimes, were in favor of restricting the vote, as were the Spanish Republicans and other Leftwingers in the early 1930s, when it was proposed to extend the vote to women in Spain. The Left feared, with good reason, that the newly-enfrachised women would vote as their priests advised them to. (The only instance I know of, of the Left opposing votes for women.)

My solution, which I know is just for fun, for provoking argument (and triggering sensitive over-emotional Lefties): everyone should be able to vote, but only by undergoing something that shows they're not completely self-interested, namely, successful completion of military service. If you want to help decide what the state does, you must show you're willing to, if necessary, sacrifice yourself for the state. This idea is not new with me -- it's stolen from a wonderful science fiction author, the late Robert Heinlein, developed in his novel Starship Troopers.

So...people who CANNOT enlist can't vote? Piss off.

 

[Doug1943]

So...people who CANNOT enlist can't vote? Piss off.

I think this is a duplicate post, but, as I said, in such a situation, you have to allow absolutely everyone the chance to serve and risk their lives, even a quadraplegic, and even if, in cases like that, the chance of risk is just notional.
The idea is, if you are going to help direct what the state does, you should be willing to risk you life in its defence. You don't get something for nothing.
Everyone else is a metic, [Metic - Wikipedia] .. full rights, but no vote.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Okay. Let's take that incident. Give me a source for it. I'll start a thread on it, and we will focus on that one thing and see where we go with it. What is pointless is back-and-forths where one side makes generalized assertions and the other side makes generalized denials, and then everything degenerates into kindergarten level exchanges of insults.

We've got one going on the Georgia voter count -- a particular assertion from an article in Chronicles which is the best one I've seen on the fraud issue, asserted that there were far more voters in Georgia, than the Census Bureau said there were people. So, we're looking at that claim. I'm in touch with the main anti-cheating group in Georgia now, and we can get the best case possible on population vs voters from them.

As I said, I've assumed that if there were serious evidence of systematic fraud, that Republican lawyers would have been all over it. (This doesn't preclude the other side's cheating where they could here and there. As I've said, ballot fraud goes back a long way ... some people believe JFK won in 1960 because of fraud in Illinois and Texas. And if you believe you're cheating to prevent a fascist from taking over, then you're all the more likely to cheat.)

Anyway, give me a bit more detail on that 2am ballot dump and I'll search for links and we can focus on that.

I had to laugh at "that Republican lawyers would have been all over it." The suits filed have been tossed for "lack of standing" the merits have NEVER even been litigated. In any event, what is it about Republican leadership that makes you think they want to fight this AT ALL? The "Republicans" in PA, WI, AZ and GA all played along with the CCP/democrat Party/Sinaloa Cartel Dream team. Only a very small handful had to be bought, bribed or blackmailed into silence - and they ALL went along

In PA, Republicans should have taken to the street to protest the Courts rewriting election laws to allow the massive mail in cheat. Were the roles reversed there would have been blood in the streets.

I'm not giving you any more detail on what was obvious in Nov 2020. Were you asleep next to Rip Van Winkle this whole time?

 

[leftwinger]

Okay. Let's take that incident. Give me a source for it. I'll start a thread on it, and we will focus on that one thing and see where we go with it. What is pointless is back-and-forths where one side makes generalized assertions and the other side makes generalized denials, and then everything degenerates into kindergarten level exchanges of insults.

We've got one going on the Georgia voter count -- a particular assertion from an article in Chronicles which is the best one I've seen on the fraud issue, asserted that there were far more voters in Georgia, than the Census Bureau said there were people. So, we're looking at that claim. I'm in touch with the main anti-cheating group in Georgia now, and we can get the best case possible on population vs voters from them.

As I said, I've assumed that if there were serious evidence of systematic fraud, that Republican lawyers would have been all over it. (This doesn't preclude the other side's cheating where they could here and there. As I've said, ballot fraud goes back a long way ... some people believe JFK won in 1960 because of fraud in Illinois and Texas. And if you believe you're cheating to prevent a fascist from taking over, then you're all the more likely to cheat.)

Anyway, give me a bit more detail on that 2am ballot dump and I'll search for links and we can focus on that.

Hey GoneWithTheWindDugg, no one is going to spoon-feed you three year old information we have all witnessed, read and verified. If we wanted to spoon-feed you we would have a HUGE problem doing so. Your buddies in the MSM, Google, FBI, DOJ and Politicians have scrubbed the information. Google takes it out of search results.

So wake up and see it WHEN it happens or STHU about you "will approve it" if we submit it to you. WE ALL ALREADY KNOW it!

 

[Doug1943]

I had to laugh at "that Republican lawyers would have been all over it." The suits filed have been tossed for "lack of standing" the merits have NEVER even been litigated. In any event, what is it about Republican leadership that makes you think they want to fight this AT ALL? The "Republicans" in PA, WI, AZ and GA all played along with the CCP/democrat Party/Sinaloa Cartel Dream team. Only a very small handful had to be bought, bribed or blackmailed into silence - and they ALL went along

In PA, Republicans should have taken to the street to protest the Courts rewriting election laws to allow the massive mail in cheat. Were the roles reversed there would have been blood in the streets.

I'm not giving you any more detail on what was obvious in Nov 2020. Were you asleep next to Rip Van Winkle this whole time?

Ok, fine. I like to be sure of what I believe. When something is what I want to believe, I try to find all the credible evidence to the contrary, so I can be sure I'm right.. I would love to believe that the great majority of Americans rejected the Democrats ... but the opinion polls showed that this was not the case. Of course, if you believe there is a giant conspiracy, involving a dozen polling organizations, all the judges, half the Republican Party leadership, etc etc ... thousands and thousands of people, each of whom knows that the election was stolen ... well, I am sure that there is no evidence that can change your mind.

What I like to do is to take one concrete assertion -- for Global Warming, is the ice melting or not -- and look at all the evidence on both sides. We did that here a few weeks ago: one side showed, yes, the amount of ice on the earth is growing smaller each year. The other side showed that although this is true, the amount being lost is very small compared to the total ... and there we left it. It seemed like a win for the anti-AGW people.

Now we've started looking at the data from Georgia. I've posted two articles by very competent people who say that the election was stolen -- using lots of statistical data, historical data, etc to show how unusual the results were. Someone challenged the assertions from Georgia, where the Census Bureau said there were 5 million people and yet there were 7 million voters. That's being looked at now. It's something that is possible to decide one way or the other.

The thing is, there are 80 million or more patriots, and they're a market. They have money. So we have dozens of websites set up by grifters to get that money. These sites will say anything ... they couldn't care less about the truth. It misleads our people, discredits us.

As for the Republican tops -- yes, they're the Chamber-of-Commerce Republicans, business as usual, send our jobs to China, import cheap illegal labor from Mexico, shovel money to the arms industry to support our 400 military bases all over the world. Trump challenged that -- ineptly, clumsily -- he didnt' have a team behind him who understood the problem. He made unforced errors. I don't know this, but it's plausible to me that he repelled the suburban 'soccer mom' types who normally vote Republican, and who did vote Republican 'down ticket' after voting against Trump.

Anyway, if you don't have the link to that incident you mention, fine. It's probably best to concentrate on the question of numbers in Georgia for the moment.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Russia actually interfered in our elections and Trump staff met with them numerous times

Hillary did get the Russian disinformation from Steele.

 

[PeterPilot]

Truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie. Mark Twain

Americans have been conditioned over generations to be fools determined to believe the lies of known liars, a pity.

 

[Doug1943]

Truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie. Mark Twain

Americans have been conditioned over generations to be fools determined to believe the lies of known liars, a pity.

Let's be fair. There are things which sound very implausible -- the whole insane QAnon stuff, the-moon-landing-was-faked, -- and anyone who believes them is clearly lacking in critical thinking skills.

But the stolen-election thing is not so implausible. There are very intelligent people who have done analyses of all the ways this election differed, statistically, from past elections, in terms of bellwether counties, precedents in terms of votes, etc etc. And it's not like America doesn't have election fraud: it is believed by some, not just conservatives, that the 1960 election was stolen from Nixon via voter fraud in Texas and Illinois.

And, psychologically, if you are a committed progressive counting votes in a swing state ... and could cheat a little bit, wouldn't you? (Not you personally.) Remember, these people believe Trump is a Nazi and his re-election would mean the imposition of fascism in the US: gas chambers, firing squads, etc. I would certainly cheat under those circumstances.

And we've seen that previously trusted, relatively non-partisan institutions -- like the mainstream media, our higher education system -- have become extremely partisan.
(I know it doesn't look this way if you're on the Left. But it does to us.)

So for a Trump voter, who saw the huge rallies for Trump and the anemic ones for the very uncharismatic Mr Biden, to think the election was stolen is, actually, quite understandable.

 

[PeterPilot]

Let's be fair. There are things which sound very implausible -- the whole insane QAnon stuff, the-moon-landing-was-faked, -- and anyone who believes them is clearly lacking in critical thinking skills.

But the stolen-election thing is not so implausible. There are very intelligent people who have done analyses of all the ways this election differed, statistically, from past elections, in terms of bellwether counties, precedents in terms of votes, etc etc. And it's not like America doesn't have election fraud: it is believed by some, not just conservatives, that the 1960 election was stolen from Nixon via voter fraud in Texas and Illinois.

And, psychologically, if you are a committed progressive counting votes in a swing state ... and could cheat a little bit, wouldn't you? (Not you personally.) Remember, these people believe Trump is a Nazi and his re-election would mean the imposition of fascism in the US: gas chambers, firing squads, etc. I would certainly cheat under those circumstances.

And we've seen that previously trusted, relatively non-partisan institutions -- like the mainstream media, our higher education system -- have become extremely partisan.
(I know it doesn't look this way if you're on the Left. But it does to us.)

So for a Trump voter, who saw the huge rallies for Trump and the anemic ones for the very uncharismatic Mr Biden, to think the election was stolen is, actually, quite understandable.

I voted LP in 2020, so at first I wasn't paying much attention to what happened. Libertarians always lose in the elections, but LP voters always wake up with a clear conscience, having not voted for the uniparty.

After the debacle at Jan6 I began paying attention, and all these months later, including watching 2000 Mules, the only logical conclusion is that the election was highly irregular to say the least. Because so many hate Trump it seems that animus drove the fraud. Or it was just the deep state or foreign enemies asserting control. Biden is basically an imposter, and his style of governance is criminal, and of course he is not alone in his criminal actions.

 

[Doug1943]

I voted LP in 2020, so at first I wasn't paying much attention to what happened. Libertarians always lose in the elections, but LP voters always wake up with a clear conscience, having not voted for the uniparty.

After the debacle at Jan6 I began paying attention, and all these months later, including watching 2000 Mules, the only logical conclusion is that the election was highly irregular to say the least. Because so many hate Trump it seems that animus drove the fraud. Or it was just the deep state or foreign enemies asserting control. Biden is basically an imposter, and his style of governance is criminal, and of course he is not alone in his criminal actions.

Yes. "Highly irregular" is a good way to put it.

At the one extreme is the idea that there was a central, top-down plot, to fiddle with the Dominion voting machines, known to all the big players: George Soros, Hillary Clinton, Mike Pence, Satan, etc. ... and involving lots of Republican leaders and many Republican-appointed judges, plus all the polling organizations. All part of the Great Conspiracy.

[There is just a tiny bit of plausibility to this: all of these people might have thought, a second term for Trump would be the end of the USA, so anything is justified to stop him.]

At the other end is the belief that there was a fair amount of un coordinated cheating, especially easy with large numbers of mail in and harvested ballots; not to mention the very act of ballot-harvesting itself, where an elderly person may be being 'helped' to vote by a young partisan, who can just discard the ballot if it's not for the 'correct' person.

We'll probably never know. All we can do is to push like hell for the most secure system possible: paper ballots with photo id, like the British have.

 

[candycorn]

Yes. "Highly irregular" is a good way to put it.

At the one extreme is the idea that there was a central, top-down plot, to fiddle with the Dominion voting machines, known to all the big players: George Soros, Hillary Clinton, Mike Pence, Satan, etc. ... and involving lots of Republican leaders and many Republican-appointed judges, plus all the polling organizations. All part of the Great Conspiracy.

[There is just a tiny bit of plausibility to this: all of these people might have thought, a second term for Trump would be the end of the USA, so anything is justified to stop him.]

At the other end is the belief that there was a fair amount of un coordinated cheating, especially easy with large numbers of mail in and harvested ballots; not to mention the very act of ballot-harvesting itself, where an elderly person may be being 'helped' to vote by a young partisan, who can just discard the ballot if it's not for the 'correct' person.

We'll probably never know. All we can do is to push like hell for the most secure system possible: paper ballots with photo id, like the British have.

You know. You just won’t accept the outcome

 

[merrill]

I've been agnostic on this issue, leaning towards 'No' -- based on various things. I believe what happened was that a certain class of people who normally vote Republican -- suburban 'soccer moms' and the like -- decided to take a chance on what appeared to be a rather conservative Democrat for President, but then voted Republican down-ticket. A comprehensive 'Plot' would have delivered the Democrats a resounding victory in House and Senate and state Legislatures.

Cheating. Maybe. And it's possible that this is what gave the Democrats their victory. Not a comprehensive plot, but un coordinated cheating in the key states, just enough to let the Democrats win.

However, regardless, the job of patriots now is to make sure the next election is honest.

Leftists think there is absolutely no case for the 'stolen election' story. Here's the best case I've found so far. I know Leftists won't read this, but patriots should.

[ Biden’s Inexplicable Victory - Chronicles ]

The Fake Republican Party has been trying to steal the election since the first day they lost the election.

 

[Doug1943]

The Fake Republican Party has been trying to steal the election since the first day they lost the election.

So, all people, both Right and Left, who want to make sure that elections are both honest, and seen to be honest, even by the losers ... need to push for the most secure, trustworthy voting system possible. I'm sure you agree with this.

 

[JoeB131]

So, all people, both Right and Left, who want to make sure that elections are both honest, and seen to be honest, even by the losers ... need to push for the most secure, trustworthy voting system possible. I'm sure you agree with this.

Our elections are honest.

This is about keeping "those people" from voting.

You guys have been whining about "voter fraud" since 2000, and people pointed out Al Gore got more votes, and therefore Bush was illegitimate.

But what you never prove... that enough erroneous voters voted to make a difference.

This is about putting as many obstacles to voting as possible, because higher voter turnouts favor Democrats.

 

[PeterPilot]

Yes. "Highly irregular" is a good way to put it.

At the one extreme is the idea that there was a central, top-down plot, to fiddle with the Dominion voting machines, known to all the big players: George Soros, Hillary Clinton, Mike Pence, Satan, etc. ... and involving lots of Republican leaders and many Republican-appointed judges, plus all the polling organizations. All part of the Great Conspiracy.

[There is just a tiny bit of plausibility to this: all of these people might have thought, a second term for Trump would be the end of the USA, so anything is justified to stop him.]

At the other end is the belief that there was a fair amount of un coordinated cheating, especially easy with large numbers of mail in and harvested ballots; not to mention the very act of ballot-harvesting itself, where an elderly person may be being 'helped' to vote by a young partisan, who can just discard the ballot if it's not for the 'correct' person.

We'll probably never know. All we can do is to push like hell for the most secure system possible: paper ballots with photo id, like the British have.

Or even like Florida has.

Did you watch 2000 Mules?

 

[rightwinger]

Or even like Florida has.

Did you watch 2000 Mules?

 

[Doug1943]

Or even like Florida has.

Did you watch 2000 Mules?

I haven't seen 2000 Mules yet, but I know the main thesis.
Here is where we must pay Democrats the sincerest form of flattery, imitation.

According to some things I've read, 25 million self-proclaimed Christians did not vote in the last election.
[ Home ]

Young people -- including our young people -- are notoriously lax about registering to vote. (There is a micro-project to reach some them -- our young people -- via the internet. Any patriot interested in finding out about it should PM me.)

There are other interest groups which are negatively affected by Democratic rule: hunters, for example.
According to the folks at 'Hunt the Vote' [ Hunt The Vote - We can't hide in the woods and expect our sport to continue. ] 50% of hunters do not vote.

The Left is pretty good at 'community organizing'. We've got to get good at it as well.

 

[task0778]

Was there election/voter fraud in the 2020 election? Yes.

Was it sufficient to change the results? Unknown. Bill Barr didn't think so, but that was not long after the election was over. And while numerous allegations were made, few were proven in court. I saw the 2000 Mules, and it was damning but it ain't proof. And in this country we do not overturn verified elections at the local, state, and federal level without sufficient proof that is acceptable in a court of law.

It's over folks. Get over it.

 

[Doug1943]

Was there election/voter fraud in the 2020 election? Yes.

Was it sufficient to change the results? Unknown. Bill Barr didn't think so, but that was not long after the election was over. And while numerous allegations were made, few were proven in court. I saw the 2000 Mules, and it was damning but it ain't proof. And in this country we do not overturn verified elections at the local, state, and federal level without sufficient proof that is acceptable in a court of law.

It's over folks. Get over it.

If all the energy that has been put into trying to prove election fraud had been put into registering non-voters who are likely to vote to preserver the country, we'd have swept the board in the 2022 elections.

 

[JoeB131]

Fake Hippy Doug, claiming to be a patriot.

I haven't seen 2000 Mules yet, but I know the main thesis.
Here is where we must pay Democrats the sincerest form of flattery, imitation.

According to some things I've read, 25 million self-proclaimed Christians did not vote in the last election.

Um, no. Not really. In fact, the Evangelicals were pretty good at getting the vote out... as Trump got 8 million more votes than he got in 2016.

Young people -- including our young people -- are notoriously lax about registering to vote. (There is a micro-project to reach some them -- our young people -- via the internet. Any patriot interested in finding out about it should PM me.)

Well, here's where you are kind of losing the young. They realize they MIGHT need an abortion pill some day.

There are other interest groups which are negatively affected by Democratic rule: hunters, for example.
According to the folks at 'Hunt the Vote' [ Hunt The Vote - We can't hide in the woods and expect our sport to continue. ] 50% of hunters do not vote.

The Left is pretty good at 'community organizing'. We've got to get good at it as well.

Actually, what you really need to do is give someone a good reason to voter for you other than scaring them about the darkies and the queers. Because old bigots like you are doing the best thing they can do for the world... DYING!