USA #1 in Gun Ownership, not in Top Ten of Nations in Gun Crime

[GLASNOST]

You sound like you come from a culture where people are not trusted to be able to protect themselves and they have to depend on a police force that is minutes away when seconds count.

It was only a few short years ago that we had a murder once in about 5 years. Your point (if you have one) hasn't been made.

You are pushing erroneous factoids there, Captain Neemo.

I have no idea what your comment and graph have to do with my response. Are you sure you're talking to me?

 

[toxicmedia]

This stuff is so obvious; guns cause a drop in crime.


Telegraph: U.S. Top Country for Gun Ownership, Not Even in Top 10 for Firearm Deaths - Breitbart

According to the Telegraph, the countries with highest per-capita gun ownership are:

1. USA – 112.6 guns per 100 residents
2. Serbia – 75.6
3. Yemen – 54.8
4. Switzerland – 45.7
5. Cyprus – 36.4
6. Saudi Arabia – 35
7. Iraq – 34.2
8. Uruguay – 31.8
9. Sweden – 31.6
10. Norway – 31.3

Note–the Telegraph presents gun ownership as so expansive in the U.S. that guns actually outnumber people. Yet the U.S. does not appear on the list of the Top 10 countries for firearm-related deaths. Those countries are:

1. Honduras – 67.18 per 100,000 residents per year
2. Venezuela – 59.13
3. Swaziland – 37.16
4. Guatemala – 34.1
5. Jamaica – 30.72
6. El Salvador – 26.77
7. Colombia – 25.94
8. Brazil – 21.2
9. Panama – 15.11
10. Uruguay – 11.52

The map and the accompanying Telegraph article were drawn from the Small Arms Survey and the 2012 Congressional Research Serrvice Report. As Breitbart News previously reported, the CRS report shows privately owned firearms jumped from 192 million in the U.S. in 1994 to 310 million in 2009. At the same time, the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate–which was 6.6 per 100,000 Americans in 1993–fell to 3.6 per 100,000 by 2000. Gun sales continued to surge and the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate fell to 3.2 in 2011.

Think about it–as gun ownership rose, the murder rate plummeted in the U.S. Couple that with the fact that only one of the Top 10 countries for gun ownership is also in the Top 10 for firearm-related deaths–Uruguay is number eight for gun ownership number 10 for gun deaths–and the point is clear: More guns correlate with less crime.

Huh....I thought Canada had the highest gun/citizen ratio

Canada's gun crime rate is going up now....

I went on line to do some research.

I'm amazed at how many different ways people are looking at this.

Guns per household.
Guns per citizen
Murder rates per capita

All that filtered through gun laws in effect.....

It doesn't seem so complicated to me.

Don't sell guns to crazy people or felons.

Don't outlaw guns in any way, because criminals will ALWAYS be able to get their hands on them anyway

 

[JimBowie1958]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

 

[toxicmedia]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

 

[JimBowie1958]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

 

[westwall]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

No, it demonstrated that any agency can be infiltrated by corrupt, evil people. And those evil people will do anything they can to make themselves feel good about themselves, up to and including violating the civil rights of people who they think are powerless, and murdering them when they get too uppity.

 

[toxicmedia]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen.

For people who just wanted to be left alone, they did a lousy job of being left alone.

At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball...good sense needs to win out. That whole family should have moved to Bolivia or something

 

[toxicmedia]

I'm gonna chalk this up to the Bourbon you'd been drinking but just minutes earlier you had agreed with the flaming CT loon in question - Dale Smith - and the quote in my retort ("fake and staged mass shootings") was lifted directly from his post (below). You aren't shocked by those like Smith who mindlessly and heartlessly make absurd CT claims about the victims and their grieving families and friends being frauds?

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

No, it demonstrated that any agency can be infiltrated by corrupt, evil people. And those evil people will do anything they can to make themselves feel good about themselves, up to and including violating the civil rights of people who they think are powerless, and murdering them when they get too uppity.

You would make a great script writer for the TV movie

 

[2aguy]

This stuff is so obvious; guns cause a drop in crime.


Telegraph: U.S. Top Country for Gun Ownership, Not Even in Top 10 for Firearm Deaths - Breitbart

According to the Telegraph, the countries with highest per-capita gun ownership are:

1. USA – 112.6 guns per 100 residents
2. Serbia – 75.6
3. Yemen – 54.8
4. Switzerland – 45.7
5. Cyprus – 36.4
6. Saudi Arabia – 35
7. Iraq – 34.2
8. Uruguay – 31.8
9. Sweden – 31.6
10. Norway – 31.3

Note–the Telegraph presents gun ownership as so expansive in the U.S. that guns actually outnumber people. Yet the U.S. does not appear on the list of the Top 10 countries for firearm-related deaths. Those countries are:

1. Honduras – 67.18 per 100,000 residents per year
2. Venezuela – 59.13
3. Swaziland – 37.16
4. Guatemala – 34.1
5. Jamaica – 30.72
6. El Salvador – 26.77
7. Colombia – 25.94
8. Brazil – 21.2
9. Panama – 15.11
10. Uruguay – 11.52

The map and the accompanying Telegraph article were drawn from the Small Arms Survey and the 2012 Congressional Research Serrvice Report. As Breitbart News previously reported, the CRS report shows privately owned firearms jumped from 192 million in the U.S. in 1994 to 310 million in 2009. At the same time, the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate–which was 6.6 per 100,000 Americans in 1993–fell to 3.6 per 100,000 by 2000. Gun sales continued to surge and the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate fell to 3.2 in 2011.

Think about it–as gun ownership rose, the murder rate plummeted in the U.S. Couple that with the fact that only one of the Top 10 countries for gun ownership is also in the Top 10 for firearm-related deaths–Uruguay is number eight for gun ownership number 10 for gun deaths–and the point is clear: More guns correlate with less crime.

Huh....I thought Canada had the highest gun/citizen ratio

Canada's gun crime rate is going up now....

I went on line to do some research.

I'm amazed at how many different ways people are looking at this.

Guns per household.
Guns per citizen
Murder rates per capita

All that filtered through gun laws in effect.....

It doesn't seem so complicated to me.

Don't sell guns to crazy people or felons.

Don't outlaw guns in any way, because criminals will ALWAYS be able to get their hands on them anyway

We already ban felons and dangerous crazy people from having guns.....

What we need to do...is put felons caught with guns in prison for a long time....not under two years with a Boot Camp....and if you commit and actual crime with a gun...you get sent to prison for a long time....30 years seems about right....


That is how you actually address gun crime...actual criminals...instead of targeting law abiding people with gun bans that make them felons for simply owning a gun...

 

[GLASNOST]

We already ban felons and dangerous crazy people from having guns.....

What we need to do...is put felons caught with guns in prison for a long time....not under two years with a Boot Camp....and if you commit and actual crime with a gun...you get sent to prison for a long time....30 years seems about right....That is how you actually address gun crime...actual criminals

Agreed.

...instead of targeting law abiding people with gun bans that make them felons for simply owning a gun...

I honestly do not think that you are paying attention. Not at all. All of those guys. So, so many of them would not have become killers and mass murderers if they'd never had a gun in their hands in the first place. Don't you read? Don't you look? Don't you listen? "He was such a nice guy!" "He was a kind and gentle man!" "He was always so helpful!" "Everyone at work liked him!" "He was the last guy anyone would have thought of to do such a thing!" "Some say that he might have had a brain tumour." "I've heard that he couldn't take it .......... when his parents got divorced - when he lost his job - when his wife left him and took the kids"

Are you maybe getting it now? Finally?

 

[Dale Smith]

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen.

For people who just wanted to be left alone, they did a lousy job of being left alone.

At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball...good sense needs to win out. That whole family should have moved to Bolivia or something

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what the event at Ruby Ridge was all about and how your beloved federal "gubermint" wanted to make a snitch out of Randy Weaver and then got pissed when he refused the offer. Your account of that day is piss poor to say the least and led to the murders at Waco and the OKC Murrah building bombing that was done by your beloved "gubermint"....debate me or attempt to refute me on this because I will kick your ass up so high that you will be able to scratch your ass as if you were scratching your neck. I am an expert on the OKC bombing and even met with Brigadier General Benton Partin about the Murrah building bombing. It was a psy-op to bring about a scaled down version of the Patriot Act that was languishing in Congress and demonize the . It was a precursor to the false flag event that was 9/11/01...and if you wish to debate that as well? Bring it on...this is what I do and have done every day 8 to 14 hours a day every day for almost 5 years. Put up or STFU.......your choice....

 

[xyz]

This stuff is so obvious; guns cause a drop in crime.


Telegraph: U.S. Top Country for Gun Ownership, Not Even in Top 10 for Firearm Deaths - Breitbart

According to the Telegraph, the countries with highest per-capita gun ownership are:

1. USA – 112.6 guns per 100 residents
2. Serbia – 75.6
3. Yemen – 54.8
4. Switzerland – 45.7
5. Cyprus – 36.4
6. Saudi Arabia – 35
7. Iraq – 34.2
8. Uruguay – 31.8
9. Sweden – 31.6
10. Norway – 31.3

Note–the Telegraph presents gun ownership as so expansive in the U.S. that guns actually outnumber people. Yet the U.S. does not appear on the list of the Top 10 countries for firearm-related deaths. Those countries are:

1. Honduras – 67.18 per 100,000 residents per year
2. Venezuela – 59.13
3. Swaziland – 37.16
4. Guatemala – 34.1
5. Jamaica – 30.72
6. El Salvador – 26.77
7. Colombia – 25.94
8. Brazil – 21.2
9. Panama – 15.11
10. Uruguay – 11.52

The map and the accompanying Telegraph article were drawn from the Small Arms Survey and the 2012 Congressional Research Serrvice Report. As Breitbart News previously reported, the CRS report shows privately owned firearms jumped from 192 million in the U.S. in 1994 to 310 million in 2009. At the same time, the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate–which was 6.6 per 100,000 Americans in 1993–fell to 3.6 per 100,000 by 2000. Gun sales continued to surge and the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate fell to 3.2 in 2011.

Think about it–as gun ownership rose, the murder rate plummeted in the U.S. Couple that with the fact that only one of the Top 10 countries for gun ownership is also in the Top 10 for firearm-related deaths–Uruguay is number eight for gun ownership number 10 for gun deaths–and the point is clear: More guns correlate with less crime.

Those numbers seem to be basically correct, however, the United States has 10.54 firearm-related deaths per 100,000, effectively placing it at #11.

Plus lack of data on firearm-related deaths for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and countries like Syria and Libya are not accounted for.

These seem to be the same statistics, but notice they are not referring to one single year for all countries:

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

Here's another one, just 2002, but missing a lot of countries:

Countries Compared by Crime > Murders with firearms. International Statistics at NationMaster.com



Besides that, the first set of statistics can also create a false impression that more people own guns in the US than in some other countries, because the US has more people that own multiple guns.

 

[SAYIT]

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen... At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball, good sense needs to win out...

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what the event at Ruby Ridge was all about and how your beloved federal "gubermint" wanted to make a snitch out of Randy Weaver and then got pissed when he refused the offer. Your account of that day is piss poor to say the least and led to the murders at Waco and the OKC Murrah building bombing that was done by your beloved "gubermint"....debate me or attempt to refute me on this because I will kick your ass up so high that you will be able to scratch your ass as if you were scratching your neck. I am an expert on the OKC bombing and even met with Brigadier General Benton Partin about the Murrah building bombing. It was a psy-op to bring about a scaled down version of the Patriot Act that was languishing in Congress and demonize the . It was a precursor to the false flag event that was 9/11/01...and if you wish to debate that as well? Bring it on...this is what I do and have done every day 8 to 14 hours a day every day for almost 5 years. Put up or STFU.......your choice....

You remain the ever-pompous purveyor of foil-hat conspiracy lunacy and clueless promoter of your debating "skills."

You and you 9/11 CTs (and your CIT source) were so completely and thoroughly exposed on numerous conspiracy board threads you were compelled to "cut [your] losses" and announce your board retirement ... a process that took days. Rather than rethink your baseless positions you simply un-retired only to spew the same, old, tired CTBS. You are and have always been one of the least capable yet most irrational 9/11 CT voices ever to slither across these boards (and, I suspect, other boards as well).

Note to ToxicM: Debating Smith means weeks of punching gaping holes in his CT lunacy only to have him employ his Whac-A-Mole methodology. That means every time you bop him he pops up in another hole spouting the same, already vanquished points.

 

[2aguy]

We already ban felons and dangerous crazy people from having guns.....

What we need to do...is put felons caught with guns in prison for a long time....not under two years with a Boot Camp....and if you commit and actual crime with a gun...you get sent to prison for a long time....30 years seems about right....That is how you actually address gun crime...actual criminals

Agreed.

...instead of targeting law abiding people with gun bans that make them felons for simply owning a gun...

I honestly do not think that you are paying attention. Not at all. All of those guys. So, so many of them would not have become killers and mass murderers if they'd never had a gun in their hands in the first place. Don't you read? Don't you look? Don't you listen? "He was such a nice guy!" "He was a kind and gentle man!" "He was always so helpful!" "Everyone at work liked him!" "He was the last guy anyone would have thought of to do such a thing!" "Some say that he might have had a brain tumour." "I've heard that he couldn't take it .......... when his parents got divorced - when he lost his job - when his wife left him and took the kids"

Are you maybe getting it now? Finally?

You are wrong...actual research into those who commit murder shows that 90% of them have long histories of criminal activity and felony convictions...you are falling for the mistaken belief that the majority of gun murderers are average people who just snap one day......and that is a myth. That is true of the rare mass public shooter.....but of the 9,616 gun murders in 2015, under 40 of them were mass public shooters...the rest were majority career felons with multiple felonies...not John Q. Citizen who ended up committing murder over a burnt dinner at home.

You are wrong on this....and of the murder victims...70-80% of them are also career criminals....

 

[GLASNOST]

You are wrong...actual research into those who commit murder shows that 90% of them have long histories of criminal activity and felony convictions...you are falling for the mistaken belief that the majority of gun murderers are average people who just snap one day......and that is a myth. That is true of the rare mass public shooter.....but of the 9,616 gun murders in 2015, under 40 of them were mass public shooters...the rest were majority career felons with multiple felonies...not John Q. Citizen who ended up committing murder over a burnt dinner at home.

You are wrong on this....and of the murder victims...70-80% of them are also career criminals....

I repeat:

"He was such a nice guy!" "He was a kind and gentle man!" "He was always so helpful!" "Everyone at work liked him!" "He was the last guy anyone would have thought of to do such a thing!" "Some say that he might have had a brain tumour." "I've heard that he couldn't take it .......... when his parents got divorced - when he lost his job - when his wife left him and took the kids"

Don't blame me. These aren't my words.

 

[2aguy]

You are wrong...actual research into those who commit murder shows that 90% of them have long histories of criminal activity and felony convictions...you are falling for the mistaken belief that the majority of gun murderers are average people who just snap one day......and that is a myth. That is true of the rare mass public shooter.....but of the 9,616 gun murders in 2015, under 40 of them were mass public shooters...the rest were majority career felons with multiple felonies...not John Q. Citizen who ended up committing murder over a burnt dinner at home.

You are wrong on this....and of the murder victims...70-80% of them are also career criminals....

I repeat:

"He was such a nice guy!" "He was a kind and gentle man!" "He was always so helpful!" "Everyone at work liked him!" "He was the last guy anyone would have thought of to do such a thing!" "Some say that he might have had a brain tumour." "I've heard that he couldn't take it .......... when his parents got divorced - when he lost his job - when his wife left him and took the kids"

Don't blame me. These aren't my words.

You are wrong....you don't understand the issue...here is actual research into those who commit murder, including gun murder, they are not normal people.....

JURIST - The Criminology of Firearms


In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."

Throughout this essay I highlight dramatic recantations by criminologists who previously endorsed stringent gun control. For example, Professor David Mustard has stated in an article [PDF] for the University of Pennsylvania Law Review:

When I started my research on guns [at the University of Chicago] in 1995, I passionately disliked firearms and fully accepted the conventional wisdom that increasing the gun-ownership rate would necessarily raise violent crime and accidental deaths. My views on this subject were formed primarily by media accounts of firearms, which unknowingly to me systematically emphasized the costs of firearms while virtually ignoring their benefits. I thought it obvious that passing laws that permitted law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons would create many problems. It is now over six years since I became convinced otherwise and concluded that shall issue laws — laws that require [gun carry permits] to be granted unless the applicant has a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness — reduce violent crime and have no impact on accidental deaths.Actual research results — as opposed to unsupported opinions — pose a question embarrassed gun prohibitionists invariably try to evade: why ban guns to ordinary owners, i.e., people who never commit gun crimes? (This query does not at all impugn our laws against previously convicted felons having guns).

 

[GLASNOST]

You are wrong....you don't understand the issue...

That would be difficult to substantiate since I haven't taken a stance on the subject. I've quoted a number of reactions (very common reactions) of those who have known people who have killed. I can't be "wrong".

here is actual research into those who commit murder, including gun murder, they are not normal people.....

Research is interesting but it is equally important to know who and why specific research was undertaken. Not every piece of research is justified or even trustworthy. It might be ... and it might not be.

Here is what worries me about the research you've submitted:

1). "Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

2). the National Academy of Sciences: "murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

These are two, apparently earnest studies, with conflicting conclusions .... but the first one is plausible, while the second one is impossible

 

[JimBowie1958]

This stuff is so obvious; guns cause a drop in crime.


Telegraph: U.S. Top Country for Gun Ownership, Not Even in Top 10 for Firearm Deaths - Breitbart

According to the Telegraph, the countries with highest per-capita gun ownership are:

1. USA – 112.6 guns per 100 residents
2. Serbia – 75.6
3. Yemen – 54.8
4. Switzerland – 45.7
5. Cyprus – 36.4
6. Saudi Arabia – 35
7. Iraq – 34.2
8. Uruguay – 31.8
9. Sweden – 31.6
10. Norway – 31.3

Note–the Telegraph presents gun ownership as so expansive in the U.S. that guns actually outnumber people. Yet the U.S. does not appear on the list of the Top 10 countries for firearm-related deaths. Those countries are:

1. Honduras – 67.18 per 100,000 residents per year
2. Venezuela – 59.13
3. Swaziland – 37.16
4. Guatemala – 34.1
5. Jamaica – 30.72
6. El Salvador – 26.77
7. Colombia – 25.94
8. Brazil – 21.2
9. Panama – 15.11
10. Uruguay – 11.52

The map and the accompanying Telegraph article were drawn from the Small Arms Survey and the 2012 Congressional Research Serrvice Report. As Breitbart News previously reported, the CRS report shows privately owned firearms jumped from 192 million in the U.S. in 1994 to 310 million in 2009. At the same time, the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate–which was 6.6 per 100,000 Americans in 1993–fell to 3.6 per 100,000 by 2000. Gun sales continued to surge and the “firearm-related murder and non-negligent homicide” rate fell to 3.2 in 2011.

Think about it–as gun ownership rose, the murder rate plummeted in the U.S. Couple that with the fact that only one of the Top 10 countries for gun ownership is also in the Top 10 for firearm-related deaths–Uruguay is number eight for gun ownership number 10 for gun deaths–and the point is clear: More guns correlate with less crime.

Those numbers seem to be basically correct, however, the United States has 10.54 firearm-related deaths per 100,000, effectively placing it at #11.

Plus lack of data on firearm-related deaths for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and countries like Syria and Libya are not accounted for.

These seem to be the same statistics, but notice they are not referring to one single year for all countries:

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia

Here's another one, just 2002, but missing a lot of countries:

Countries Compared by Crime > Murders with firearms. International Statistics at NationMaster.com



Besides that, the first set of statistics can also create a false impression that more people own guns in the US than in some other countries, because the US has more people that own multiple guns.

None of which addresses the simple FACT that the USA has a much lower violent crime rate of ALL types, and a huge part of that is due to our ownership of guns.

Come on, just think about it. Some criminal can sneak into a family's home in the UK and feel fairly confident that they are unarmed except with a clumsy shotgun, maybe, but even then they could go to prison if they use it to shoot unarmed criminals in their home as some have been prosecuted.

In the USA those criminals are idiots and few will invade a home while people are there unless they plan to rush in somehow and get control of the owners, but that is very rare.

In the USA criminals have a deterrent from using violent crime, in the UK they do not.

 

[toxicmedia]

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen... At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball, good sense needs to win out...

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what the event at Ruby Ridge was all about and how your beloved federal "gubermint" wanted to make a snitch out of Randy Weaver and then got pissed when he refused the offer. Your account of that day is piss poor to say the least and led to the murders at Waco and the OKC Murrah building bombing that was done by your beloved "gubermint"....debate me or attempt to refute me on this because I will kick your ass up so high that you will be able to scratch your ass as if you were scratching your neck. I am an expert on the OKC bombing and even met with Brigadier General Benton Partin about the Murrah building bombing. It was a psy-op to bring about a scaled down version of the Patriot Act that was languishing in Congress and demonize the . It was a precursor to the false flag event that was 9/11/01...and if you wish to debate that as well? Bring it on...this is what I do and have done every day 8 to 14 hours a day every day for almost 5 years. Put up or STFU.......your choice....

You remain the ever-pompous purveyor of foil-hat conspiracy lunacy and clueless promoter of your debating "skills."

You and you 9/11 CTs (and your CIT source) were so completely and thoroughly exposed on numerous conspiracy board threads you were compelled to "cut [your] losses" and announce your board retirement ... a process that took days. Rather than rethink your baseless positions you simply un-retired only to spew the same, old, tired CTBS. You are and have always been one of the least capable yet most irrational 9/11 CT voices ever to slither across these boards (and, I suspect, other boards as well).

Note to ToxicM: Debating Smith means weeks of punching gaping holes in his CT lunacy only to have him employ his Whac-A-Mole methodology. That means every time you bop him he pops up in another hole spouting the same, already vanquished points.

I've experienced the "whack-a-mole" crowd. Thanks for the heads up. With those folks I just give short answers. It's hard to tell if they're crazy or just trolling

 

[JimBowie1958]

I think Dale is honestly mistaken about what is happening in these situations. There are disinformation campaigns being waged against our government by foreign entities and using our own governments training against itself in such a disinformation campaign is cute and clever.

We should be more skeptical about such scenarios and trust our government more, but after what happened at Ruby Ridge the US government has proven it is not worthy of such trust as it committed perjury in an effort to entrap and send to prison an innocent man and even staged the crime scene photos to frame him. It was all proven in court and the US government fined (which will be paid for with OUR tax payer money).

So while I disagree with Dale about these incidents I can no longer truthfully say it is all preposterous to even suggest it and that is the fault of our own government who traded the confidence and trust of its own people for a shot at a win in ONE court case...

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen.

For people who just wanted to be left alone, they did a lousy job of being left alone.

At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball...good sense needs to win out. That whole family should have moved to Bolivia or something

Weaver was entrapped with a fake court date on his summons paperwork that caused him to miss it, so the ATF could pressure him into becoming an informant on the AB network there. Weaver consistently refused. The FBI admits that the case against Weaver was bullshit and so they settled out of court for millions of dollars.

But none of that matters to a jack boot licking thrall like you does it?