USA #1 in Gun Ownership, not in Top Ten of Nations in Gun Crime

[skookerasbil]

This is basically a dead issue........in April of 2013, the Harvard University study found that murder rates were far higher in European countries where they had done gun bans.........like 9 times higher.

Harvard Gun-control Study Destroys Gun-control Agenda


gun grabbing in 2016 is ghey............and nobody cares anyway. Munch......munch

 

[GaryDog]

Yeah, wow, we're beating such bastions of peace like Swaziland and Honduras.

LOL

 

[2aguy]

You are wrong....you don't understand the issue...

That would be difficult to substantiate since I haven't taken a stance on the subject. I've quoted a number of reactions (very common reactions) of those who have known people who have killed. I can't be "wrong".

here is actual research into those who commit murder, including gun murder, they are not normal people.....

Research is interesting but it is equally important to know who and why specific research was undertaken. Not every piece of research is justified or even trustworthy. It might be ... and it might not be.

Here is what worries me about the research you've submitted:

1). "Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

2). the National Academy of Sciences: "murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

These are two, apparently earnest studies, with conflicting conclusions .... but the first one is plausible, while the second one is impossible

Wrong......we are talking research that goes back in time and shows that people who commit murder are not normal, law abiding people who snap and use a gun out of a momentary loss of control........

 

[toxicmedia]

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen.

For people who just wanted to be left alone, they did a lousy job of being left alone.

At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball...good sense needs to win out. That whole family should have moved to Bolivia or something

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what the event at Ruby Ridge was all about and how your beloved federal "gubermint" wanted to make a snitch out of Randy Weaver and then got pissed when he refused the offer. Your account of that day is piss poor to say the least and led to the murders at Waco and the OKC Murrah building bombing that was done by your beloved "gubermint"....debate me or attempt to refute me on this because I will kick your ass up so high that you will be able to scratch your ass as if you were scratching your neck. I am an expert on the OKC bombing and even met with Brigadier General Benton Partin about the Murrah building bombing. It was a psy-op to bring about a scaled down version of the Patriot Act that was languishing in Congress and demonize the . It was a precursor to the false flag event that was 9/11/01...and if you wish to debate that as well? Bring it on...this is what I do and have done every day 8 to 14 hours a day every day for almost 5 years. Put up or STFU.......your choice....

If there weren't children killed because of the pedophile David Koresh...Waco would have been justified.

I'm sick of conspiracy loving freak shows thinking the United States has to support their anti social behavior.

If you're going to stay by yourself like some hermit...obey the laws when you're doing that

 

[toxicmedia]

But in fact you specifically agreed with Smith's post (again, it could have been the Bourbon) and cherry-picking one terrible incident (Ruby Ridge) and making it some sort of seminal moment in your perspective ignores the thousands of gov't actions that are sometimes misguided but generally well-intentioned. It also demeans the millions of honest Americans who plan and perform those actions. Smith has an extremely paranoid POV in which America (and Americans) are always a force for evil and he is constantly complicit in spreading that mis and disinfo on these forums.

Ruby Ridge demonstrates that what Dale and millions more like him are not suggesting something that is ludicrous as you seem to think it is.

I did not say it proves all these other conspiracy theories to be correct.

You know what Ruby Ridge demonstrated to me?......

If you want to live like people do in a third world country, go find a third world country to live in

Wow, great dedication to the rule of law and the Constitution, jack boot.

I am sure there is some small town that would appreciate you goose stepping through it, so why dont you go find it, numb nuts?

Oh that's just adorable Drama Queen.

For people who just wanted to be left alone, they did a lousy job of being left alone.

At some point, when living like a paranoid nut ball...good sense needs to win out. That whole family should have moved to Bolivia or something

Weaver was entrapped with a fake court date on his summons paperwork that caused him to miss it, so the ATF could pressure him into becoming an informant on the AB network there. Weaver consistently refused. The FBI admits that the case against Weaver was bullshit and so they settled out of court for millions of dollars.

But none of that matters to a jack boot licking thrall like you does it?

I'll never support the white nationalist movement, and those who aid it in any way.

I don't care what you think, and you can play that Nazi card all day.

How ironic that an AB supporter is calling me a Nazi.

That is adorable indeed

 

[2aguy]

You are wrong....you don't understand the issue...

That would be difficult to substantiate since I haven't taken a stance on the subject. I've quoted a number of reactions (very common reactions) of those who have known people who have killed. I can't be "wrong".

here is actual research into those who commit murder, including gun murder, they are not normal people.....

Research is interesting but it is equally important to know who and why specific research was undertaken. Not every piece of research is justified or even trustworthy. It might be ... and it might not be.

Here is what worries me about the research you've submitted:

1). "Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

2). the National Academy of Sciences: "murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

These are two, apparently earnest studies, with conflicting conclusions .... but the first one is plausible, while the second one is impossible

Did you miss the part where they went through vast amounts of research on the topic....and all of that research said you are wrong.


Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong.

The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."




....and then there is this...

Roy Exum: How We Stop The Bullets

David Kennedy, a renowned criminal justice professor and co-chair of the National Network for Safe Communities, believes that places like the 1500 block of East 50th Street where Deontrey was killed, or Central Avenue where two other Chattanoogans were shot around the same time, aren’t necessarily bad areas. Good people live in those areas, just as the overwhelming numbers of those who live in our inner city are decent and law-abiding citizens.


No, our new focus isn’t on neighborhoods like Alton Park or East Chattanooga but instead on “hot” places” and “hot” people. In an article entitled, “The Story Behind the Nation’s Falling Body Count,” Kennedy writes, “Research on hot spots shows violence to be concentrated in ‘micro’ places, rather than ‘dangerous neighborhoods,’ as the popular idea goes. Blocks, corners, and buildings representing just five or six percent of an entire city will drive half of its serious crime.”


The same is true about people. “We now know that homicide and gun violence are overwhelmingly concentrated among serious offenders operating in groups: gangs, drug crews, and the like representing under half of one percent of a city's population who commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”
Read it once more: “ … under half of one percent … commit half to three-quarters of all murders.”


It is vitally important for us to realize the recent “worst of the worst” roundup had very little to do with race, yet to the uninformed it clearly appeared that only blacks were targeted.

Try to forget that all were black and focus instead on the far greater fact – there is ample evidence that each is alleged to be a serious criminal.
Kennedy writes, “We also know some reliable predictors of risk: individuals who have a history of violence or a close connection with prior victims are far more likely to be involved in violence themselves.

Hot groups and people are so hot that when their offending is statistically abstracted, their neighborhoods cease to be dangerous. Their communities aren't dangerous; (these criminals) are.”

You are completely wrong in what you are saying....it is violent people with long histories of violence who commit the crime...not normal, law abiding people who snap one day....

 

[GLASNOST]

Wrong....

Can you stop saying "wrong" in every one of your posts, please. You are beginning to sound like a child.

..we are talking research that goes back in time and shows that people who commit murder are not normal, law abiding people who snap and use a gun out of a momentary loss of control........

Look my friend, deeming the shooter as crazy is the latest ploy. Law abiding citizens who suddenly spray the 7/11 with bullets is said to have gone crazy, an alleged brain tumour .... etc. etc. etc. Of course now we are hearing a lot of the "terrorist" spin on the perpetrator so that line might soon replace the "crazy" explanation.

But since you are so fond of responding with "wrong" .... I'll give you one back >>>>>

. [v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

Wrong.

We are talking research that goes back in time and shows that [M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection.

 

[2aguy]

Wrong....

Can you stop saying "wrong" in every one of your posts, please. You are beginning to sound like a child.

..we are talking research that goes back in time and shows that people who commit murder are not normal, law abiding people who snap and use a gun out of a momentary loss of control........

Look my friend, deeming the shooter as crazy is the latest ploy. Law abiding citizens who suddenly spray the 7/11 with bullets is said to have gone crazy, an alleged brain tumour .... etc. etc. etc. Of course now we are hearing a lot of the "terrorist" spin on the perpetrator so that line might soon replace the "crazy" explanation.

But since you are so fond of responding with "wrong" .... I'll give you one back >>>>>

. [v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

Wrong.

We are talking research that goes back in time and shows that [M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection.

Look.....you are wrong.....there were 9,616 gun murders in the U.S. in 2015 and 90% of them were committed by career criminals and they shot people who were criminals....I have shown you the links....you refuse to believe it....you have created a myth in your mind and you won't see the truth.....

More....

Public Health and Gun Control --- A Review (Part II: Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues) | Hacienda Publishing


Another favorite view of the gun control, public health establishment is the myth propounded by Dr. Mark Rosenberg, former head of the NCIPC of the CDC, who has written: "Most of the perpetrators of violence are not criminals by trade or profession. Indeed, in the area of domestic violence, most of the perpetrators are never accused of any crime. The victims and perpetrators are ourselves --- ordinary citizens, students, professionals, and even public health workers."(6)

That statement is contradicted by available data, government data. The fact is that the typical murderer has had a prior criminal history of at least six years with four felony arrests in his record before he finally commits murder.


(17) The FBI statistics reveal that 75 percent of all violent crimes for any locality are committed by six percent of hardened criminals and repeat offenders.(18)


Less than 2 percent of crimes committed with firearms are carried out by licensed (e.g., concealed carry permit holders) law-abiding citizens.(11)

Violent crimes continue to be a problem in the inner cities with gangs involved in the drug trade. Crimes in rural areas for both blacks and whites, despite the preponderance of guns in this setting, remain low.(11,19)



Gun availability does not cause crime. Prohibitionist government policies and gun control (rather than crime control) exacerbates the problem by making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves, their families, and their property. In fact, there was a modest increase in both homicide and suicide after prohibition and passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968.(20)

 

[2aguy]

Wrong....

Can you stop saying "wrong" in every one of your posts, please. You are beginning to sound like a child.

..we are talking research that goes back in time and shows that people who commit murder are not normal, law abiding people who snap and use a gun out of a momentary loss of control........

Look my friend, deeming the shooter as crazy is the latest ploy. Law abiding citizens who suddenly spray the 7/11 with bullets is said to have gone crazy, an alleged brain tumour .... etc. etc. etc. Of course now we are hearing a lot of the "terrorist" spin on the perpetrator so that line might soon replace the "crazy" explanation.

But since you are so fond of responding with "wrong" .... I'll give you one back >>>>>

. [v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

Wrong.

We are talking research that goes back in time and shows that [M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection.

Moron......I have tried....

Here is a list of mass public shootings and how many people were killed going back to the 1980s compiled by anti gunners Mother Jones...

There were 9,616 gun murders in 2015....

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation



How many deaths on average according to Mother Jones...anti gun, uber left wing Mother Jones.......each year, well less than 73.

2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7

 

[Brynmr]

NRA-ILA | Entertainment Industry Conditioning the Public Against Gun Ownership

'According to EIC, civilian firearms ownership is one of the “major” issues requiring public conditioning.'

The EIC 'provides those in the entertainment industry with a list of “Depiction Suggestions” for how firearms should be portrayed on television and in film.'

a few examples:

Consider reflecting the reality that homeowners often freeze up or tremble so badly when trying to use a gun in self-defense that they are unable to deploy it. Or show them as being too frozen in fear to even get the gun.

Consider showing someone who is attempting to use a gun in self-defense being overpowered by the attacker who then uses the gun against him or her.

Consider depicting people as feeling less safe, rather than more safe, when they find their neighbors becoming increasingly armed.

If appropriate to the story, consider exploring a gun dealer’s or a gun supplier’s remorse about the harm done by someone to whom he or she furnished a firearm.

Consider having a character use a gun in what he/she believes is self-defense only to be charged with murder or manslaughter because it’s determined that excessive or unjustified lethal force was deployed.

Consider portraying a gun manufacturer making the right decisions in choosing to design a safer firearm.

Try making the point that having guns in the house may actually increase the possibility of home invasion robbery since firearms are an attractive target for theft.

 

[2aguy]

Here is your your edit....

We are talking research that goes back in time and shows that [M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection.

Here is what the link states....

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.



JURIST - The Criminology of Firearms


In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.

While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."

Throughout this essay I highlight dramatic recantations by criminologists who previously endorsed stringent gun control. For example, Professor David Mustard has stated in an article [PDF] for the University of Pennsylvania Law Review:

When I started my research on guns [at the University of Chicago] in 1995, I passionately disliked firearms and fully accepted the conventional wisdom that increasing the gun-ownership rate would necessarily raise violent crime and accidental deaths. My views on this subject were formed primarily by media accounts of firearms, which unknowingly to me systematically emphasized the costs of firearms while virtually ignoring their benefits. I thought it obvious that passing laws that permitted law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons would create many problems. It is now over six years since I became convinced otherwise and concluded that shall issue laws — laws that require [gun carry permits] to be granted unless the applicant has a criminal record or a history of significant mental illness — reduce violent crime and have no impact on accidental deaths.Actual research results — as opposed to unsupported opinions — pose a question embarrassed gun prohibitionists invariably try to evade: why ban guns to ordinary owners, i.e., people who never commit gun crimes? (This query does not at all impugn our laws against previously convicted felons having guns).



-------------------------

Zimring has nevertheless remained a firm advocate of gun bans. But actual research has produced an unbroken record of recantations by criminologists who once agreed with Zimring. In the late 1970's the US Department of Justice (DOJ) funded and tasked the University of Massachusetts' Social and Demographic Research Institute to review and evaluate the entire extant literature on gun control in the US and elsewhere. The Institute's resulting report observed: "It is commonly hypothesized that much criminal violence, especially homicide, occurs simply because the means of lethal violence (firearms) are readily at hand, and, thus, that much homicide would not occur were firearms generally less available. There is no persuasive evidence that supports this view." (emphasis added)


That evaluation's authors — Professors James Wright, Peter Rossi and Kathleen Daly — subsequently published a commercial version of their report to which they added their personal recantation:

The progressive's indictment of American firearms policy is well known and is one that both the senior authors of this study once shared. This indictment includes the following particulars: (1) Guns are involved in an astonishing number of crimes in this country. (2) In other countries with stricter firearms laws and fewer guns in private hands, gun crime is rare ... (4) Many families acquire a gun because they feel the need to protect themselves; eventually, they end up shooting one another. (5) If there were fewer guns around, there would obviously be less crime ... The more deeply we explored the empirical implications of this indictment, the less plausible it has become. (emphasis, parentheses added)

 

[GLASNOST]

... all of that research said you are wrong.

What are you ... 10 years old? I can't be 'wrong'. I haven't expressed any conviction yet. You don't know what an adult discussion is, do you.

 

[MindWars]

Congratulations! Your logical fallacy is false cause

Move along, nothing to see here but rightist kook propaganda.

If you take out the fake and staged mass shootings like the Sandy Hook hoax, Charleston, Aurora, etc, etc.....deaths go down even more.

Oh here it comes ............... lol

 

[westwall]

You are wrong...actual research into those who commit murder shows that 90% of them have long histories of criminal activity and felony convictions...you are falling for the mistaken belief that the majority of gun murderers are average people who just snap one day......and that is a myth. That is true of the rare mass public shooter.....but of the 9,616 gun murders in 2015, under 40 of them were mass public shooters...the rest were majority career felons with multiple felonies...not John Q. Citizen who ended up committing murder over a burnt dinner at home.

You are wrong on this....and of the murder victims...70-80% of them are also career criminals....

I repeat:

"He was such a nice guy!" "He was a kind and gentle man!" "He was always so helpful!" "Everyone at work liked him!" "He was the last guy anyone would have thought of to do such a thing!" "Some say that he might have had a brain tumour." "I've heard that he couldn't take it .......... when his parents got divorced - when he lost his job - when his wife left him and took the kids"

Don't blame me. These aren't my words.

Guess what those who benefit from the largesse of the drug lord consider him to be a "nice guy". Criminals tend to either terrify their neighbors, hide from them, or be nice to them. Thus you will ALWAYS get one of those three responses from neighbors. Your observation is infantile at best.

 

[westwall]

... all of that research said you are wrong.

What are you ... 10 years old? I can't be 'wrong'. I haven't expressed any conviction yet. You don't know what an adult discussion is, do you.

Sure you can. And you are. You resort to simplistic thinking and retort with typical infantile insults.

 

[SAYIT]

Guess what those who benefit from the largesse of the drug lord consider him to be a "nice guy"...

Wait ... that wouldn't also happen to be how some seedy politicians garner the love, respect, and votes of their supporters? Like "free" stuff from the gov't trough paid for by the confiscated wealth of productive Americans? (Note: "free" here is defined but that which is paid for by someone else).

Ineptocracy - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves (or even try) are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers