US Senate Report Officially Blames Top Bush Officials for Torture

[driveby]

Maybe the NY Times will make this a front page story for 40 days in a row, again ......

A few minutes of water boarding to get info that thwarts a terrorist attack? i'm ok with that ......

 

[WillowTree]

so,, will the non torture group enlighten us as to how they would get the information needed to save millions of lives? I would like to know your stratagey!



do you think the Japanese would have been justified in torturing an American if they could have stopped America from dropping the atomic bomb? Or should they be good Japanese souls and let their people die??

 

[Red Dawn]

Torture in and of it's self is not a evil act. Just as the validation or condemnation of the act is not a black or white issue.

This was a pretty good thread, until I got to the Republican responses. Now I feel unclean.

Torture is always evil.

And the world isn't limited to two responses, either torture the terrorists, or have tea with them.

 

[driveby]

This was a pretty good thread, until I got to the Republican responses. Now I feel unclean.

Torture is always evil.

And the world isn't limited to two responses, either torture the terrorists, or have tea with them.

Pretty please tell us where the next bomb that will kill innocent civilians is going to blow up ?

With sugar on top, please tell us where the next plane hijacking will take place ?

 

[Caligirl]

so,, will the non torture group enlighten us as to how they would get the information needed to save millions of lives? I would like to know your stratagey!

The interrogators I have heard interviewed have said things like:

"We started to acquire useful information once we established trust with the detainees."

This makes sense to me.

 

[WillowTree]

This was a pretty good thread, until I got to the Republican responses. Now I feel unclean.

Torture is always evil.

And the world isn't limited to two responses, either torture the terrorists, or have tea with them.

well, in all fairness I did ask what your plan of action would be now didn't I?

 

[Xenophon]

I read through half of the actual report, there are no 'war crimes.'

This is the same argument about stress techniques and sleep deprevation and so on that have been going on for 6 years.

 

[Old Rocks]

While I do not doubt that the Bush II administration set the tenor of Abu Ghraib, and I certainly feel that the leaders in the chain of command should be called to account for that, but I want to say something about personal responsibility and the absolution from guilt that we do often give those who are merely obeying orders.

I really do object to the "I was only ordering the trucks" defence of underlings when it comes to crimes against humanity.

This is what I would say to anyone who used the "good soldier defence"

No, I think, you bear a full measure of responsibility, too. You did the monster's dirty work.

No dictator works alone. The monsters you willingly followed cannot be monsters at the top unless people LIKE YOU are willing participants in their crimes.

The henchmen are just as responsible for their carrying out orders as the monsters who gave them.

I point this out because, if we often do NOT hold the minions responsible for their actions.

If we did, it might be somewhat harder for the next monster to find minions to do their dirty work.

I have to tell you in editecotopia, if a criminal regime takes power and commits crimes against humanity, everybody who carried out those crimes, from generals to privates would be held to account for their part in the crime.

The "good soldier" defence just doesn't wash with me.

It takes an army of "good soldiers" and functionaries to make a tyrannical government work.

AFAIC, the whole chain of command involved in this sort of crime needs to answer for the crimes it committed.

Saddam wasn't shit without his supporters, know what I mean?

The supporters of tyrants should NOT get a pass.

And the citizens that closed their eyes to the atrocities also bear the blame. We cannot, as a nation, indulge in this sort of conduct without the result demeaning our lives and the lives of our children. That this became a policy of this nation is a shame that will be decades in erasing. If we fail to hold those who created this policy to a full accounting, that will only add to the shame.

 

[Old Rocks]

Torture in and of it's self is not a evil act. Just as the validation or condemnation of the act is not a black or white issue.

Torture is an act of evil, and those that engage in it are evil. There is no gray area here. Those that defend torture are as guilty as those that torture, for they are the enablers of torture. Those that approve of the use of methods that demean others humanity, have abdicated their own humanity. They should be put away for a long period of time with the criminals that they have enabled.

 

[Old Rocks]

Maybe the NY Times will make this a front page story for 40 days in a row, again ......

A few minutes of water boarding to get info that thwarts a terrorist attack? i'm ok with that ......

Then you are an idiot! First, it doesn't happen that way, and second, it always turns into far more than a few minutes. We already know of several cases of innocents being picked up and tortured. Enough torture, and the person on the recieving end will say whatever he or she thinks that you want to hear. People like you are engaging in evil when you approve of this kind of criminality. You are the very kind of people that created the Third Reich.

 

[Old Rocks]

Pretty please tell us where the next bomb that will kill innocent civilians is going to blow up ?

With sugar on top, please tell us where the next plane hijacking will take place ?

Sure, and this is the same excuse that every dictorial and evil regime has used since the human race began. And it is no less evil and demeaning because you are using it.

 

[mightypeon]

From a purely pragmatic point of view, torture produces a lot of false information, which can be significantly worse than no information.
This has 2 reasons: A) People will come up with strange stuff just to get away from the torture, B) People will come up with a preset story since they were trained how to react there. If I would be in Gitmo I would talk until the interrogator does not want to hear a word from me anymore.

Besides, information has a short half life, if someone has been in jail for years, any information he may still possess is very likely to be totally outdated.

 

[WillowTree]

Torture is an act of evil, and those that engage in it are evil. There is no gray area here. Those that defend torture are as guilty as those that torture, for they are the enablers of torture. Those that approve of the use of methods that demean others humanity, have abdicated their own humanity. They should be put away for a long period of time with the criminals that they have enabled.

no what is true evil is sitting around drinking tea with thine enemy and letting several million of your fellow countrymen die.. It's real easy to sit here on this message board and call the people who have to make these decisions evil.. I'm thanking god you're not in charge..

 

[Alpha1]

US Senate Report Officially Blames Top Bush Officials for Torture ????

No shit.....who else would you expect a Democrate controlled Senate to blame.....

I could have told you this would be the outcome 18 months ago........

 

[Old Rocks]

no what is true evil is sitting around drinking tea with thine enemy and letting several million of your fellow countrymen die.. It's real easy to sit here on this message board and call the people who have to make these decisions evil.. I'm thanking god you're not in charge..

Your people were in charge when the atrocities occurred. And you nicely laid them all on a few foot soldiers, and let the people directing these actions off free. But now people like me are in charge, and there will be some major changes.

Your damned leader let 3000 Americans die, and never even bothered to get the perpatrator of the deed. Six months after 9-11, he stated "Bin Laden is not a concern of mine". And Bin Laden is still free and alive, more than seven years later. There were warnings from the prior administration, passed off with "Clinton has a fixation with Bin Laden". There were over 50 warnings in the summer prior to 9-11, and Bush ignored all of them, went on vacation.

I am quite sure that Obama will do a better job of protecting this nation, I am quite sure that McCain would have done a better job of protecting this nation. Hell, I am even sure that Ron Paul would have done a better job than Bush at protecting this nation. All Bush has brought us in failure, shame, and death.

 

[Old Rocks]

US Senate Report Officially Blames Top Bush Officials for Torture ????

No shit.....who else would you expect a Democrate controlled Senate to blame.....

I could have told you this would be the outcome 18 months ago........

The Bush admin was in charge, who else is there to blame for the criminal policy that they pursued?

 

[del]

The Bush admin was in charge, who else is there to blame for the criminal policy that they pursued?

jesus

 

[driveby]

Then you are an idiot! First, it doesn't happen that way, and second, it always turns into far more than a few minutes. We already know of several cases of innocents being picked up and tortured. Enough torture, and the person on the recieving end will say whatever he or she thinks that you want to hear. People like you are engaging in evil when you approve of this kind of criminality. You are the very kind of people that created the Third Reich.

Several cases of innocents being picked up ? sure ....

These people are savages that will sacrifice their own lives to kill us, wake up moron.

Wait, there was one innocent that i heard about being picked up, his name was Nick Berg, how'd that one go ?

 

[driveby]

Sure, and this is the same excuse that every dictorial and evil regime has used since the human race began. And it is no less evil and demeaning because you are using it.

Christ, with you liberals interpretation of "torture", the detainee's can't even be spoken to in the wrong manner. Yet, what do you clowns say about Bush for removing maybe the worst violator of torture and murder in the world, Saddam Hussein ?

 

[WillowTree]

Your people were in charge when the atrocities occurred. And you nicely laid them all on a few foot soldiers, and let the people directing these actions off free. But now people like me are in charge, and there will be some major changes.

Your damned leader let 3000 Americans die, and never even bothered to get the perpatrator of the deed. Six months after 9-11, he stated "Bin Laden is not a concern of mine". And Bin Laden is still free and alive, more than seven years later. There were warnings from the prior administration, passed off with "Clinton has a fixation with Bin Laden". There were over 50 warnings in the summer prior to 9-11, and Bush ignored all of them, went on vacation.

I am quite sure that Obama will do a better job of protecting this nation, I am quite sure that McCain would have done a better job of protecting this nation. Hell, I am even sure that Ron Paul would have done a better job than Bush at protecting this nation. All Bush has brought us in failure, shame, and death.

Clinton, Clinton. Clinto,, let Bin Laden bomb while he got a blow job.. you got nothing to be proud of..