Under Bush US's 400 richest doubled their wealth

[Bern80]

I'm talking about the Mortgage industry without whose collpase the banking industry is just fine.

As for banks making money? Why who'd a thunk it. Isn't that what they are supposed to do?

I'm sick of people acting like a CEO's salary which frequenly is less that 1% of net income is breaking the bank. It doesn't Bonuses in 2008 generally reflect activities in 2007.

What utter ignorance. Are you telling me that these banks had seven billion dollars in mortgages in American that they were force to make? If that is what you are eluding too you need to go back to school and take the math courses over again. Seven million is almost two million dollars per every man, woman and child that is a citizen of the United States.

Go puke your guts out because people are not getting over this one and you'll keep hearing them bitch about it over and over and over again.

You are the very last person who should be accusing anyone of ignorance when your own is simply astounding. Instead of a real discussion about the ramifications of your position you CHOOSE to disengage and remain ignorant. You have CHOSEN to label the rest of the corporate world in with same people that wronged you, thus choosing to remain ignorant of how most managers and owners run their businesses.

 

[RodISHI]

No I have simply chosen to ignore you bern. Go join garyd in the corner. Do your homework on someone elses time. Mine is not available to you.

 

[garyd]

I already did my homework a long time back. It is your inability to look beyond Bush that is the problem here. The value of subprime mortgages alone exceeded 1.3 trillion dollars. or close to 200 times that seven billion you are talking about.

 

[RodISHI]

I already did my homework a long time back. It is your inability to look beyond Bush that is the problem here. The value of subprime mortgages alone exceeded 1.3 trillion dollars. or close to 200 times that seven billion you are talking about.

Correction the post should have said seven hundred billion.

The value according to who? The banksters?

Look beyond Bush for what I supported the man twice. He does not call all of the shots. It took all of the SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN along with the presidents to help create whatever financial tragedies are out there.

I have said it already yet I will say it again. When this country was attacked the corrupt and greedy went on a feeding frenzy. I put just a hint of that information in this thread
Just a few using Standard Banking

To claim this whole fiasco on simply subprime mortgages is an outright lie.

Not everyone and their brother that is a citizen of the United States has a subprime mortgage. Many people still believe in actually owning their real and personal property free and clear.

Many people own their homes straight out with no mortgage or very little left to pay on their mortgages. Not everyone drive a car with a lien on it. Not everyone uses credit cards when they cannot pay cash.

The banks should have never been bailed out without fully proving up first with accurate and complete accounting. They have been allowed to run free without full regulations as they have run the country into debt.

BTW, my son worked as a banker for a very short stint. It was way to cut throat and under handed for him. He came to me and said, "Mom you won't believe what they do. I can't do it. It just isn't worth not being able to sleep at night."

I may not be a real estate guru garyd but yet I'm not fully ignorant of the business as it used to be compared to today. My grandmother was the first licensed real estate broker in the state of California. The woman had integrity and she would have been up in arms over what this country has done/allowed to be done to it's people.

John Perkins - Confessions of an Economic Hitman....covering his job of trying to convince third world countries to take on huge loans with enormous debt.

Heck it worked abroad and they thought it would work here.

FIGHT THE WALL STREET ADDICTION FRAUD AND “RESCUE” TRAP! TIME FOR REAL SOCIALIST CHANGE! | Philadelphia Independent Media Center
The first is the policy of stopping short-selling financial stocks. That is, no speculative calls or bets that predict fall in share prices of Wall Street banks and insurance companies. This is sheer fraud. Wall Street and its business media fooled the people into buying into a bubble. Drill, drill and drill. Buy, buy and buy shares, because share prices will go Up, Up and Up. They tricked the people into thinking Wall Street speculation meant that speculative investment would bring only rising share prices and only profits, not losses. They put the people in denial that Wall Street share prices follow the law of gravity, what goes up can and sooner or later tends to go down.

Now Wall Street is pushing this lie to a higher absurd level. Now they make it a law in New York that Wall Street investors and speculators can only bet in one direction. And the US government in New York now colludes with Wall Street in threatening those who “short-sell”. Now they lull the people with the lie that Wall Street is okay, because it’s against the law to bet for share prices of Wall Street banks will fall. So Wall Street will not fall, the lie goes, so keep the investment and money pouring in.

Juan Cole, History News Network -"northeastern Money Men waltz off with a lion's share of the country's resources, consigning most Americans to stagnant wages and increasing debt"

"As a result of the Second Gilded Age and its serf-like subservience to big capital, most corporations in the US don't pay any income taxes, despite doing $2.5 trillion annually in business.
The Reagan Revolution included the stupid idea that you can cut taxes, starve government, abolish regulation of securities, banks etc. and still grow the economy. The irony is that capitalist markets need to be regulated to avoid periodically becoming chaotic (as in 'chaos theory,') but the people who most benefit from regulation are most zealous in attempting to abolish or blunt it."

And this the type of stuff the serfs are paying for...Investment bankers racked up $100,000s in prostitution charges...."Some of these guys, I was invoicing on corporate credit cards," she said. "I was writing up monthly bills for computer consulting, construction expenses, all of these things, I was invoicing them monthly so they could get it by their accountants."




Back to the OP who double up their net worth? See above quotes!

 

[Bern80]

No I have simply chosen to ignore you bern. Go join garyd in the corner. Do your homework on someone elses time. Mine is not available to you.

Are you under the impression that I care if you ignore me? When you say stupid things, I'm going to call you on it, period. Whether you choose to provide an intelligent response is your choice (and even when you do they aren't intelligent).

Say what ever you need to say to avoid discussing the actual topic, your position concerning living wage. Hell I can provide a counter argument to the one weak attempt you made. What was it? Oh yes. The 'we are a society' bull shit.

Okay, what is REALLY in society's best interest? That people learn it is not their responsibility to provide for themseleves? How do societies become stronger? How do individuals become stronger for that matter? Via challenges and adversity. Ultimately a living wage mandate would make this society you claim to care so much about weaker, because as the saying goes 'neccessity is the mother of invention'. Why would people push themselves if it isn't neccessary? Why would people better themselves in an effort to provide their needs when your mandate renders that unneccessary.

You don't have to respond to me, that's fine. I WILL keep responding to you and calling you on any more BS that you may spew. At the very least i would reccommend you take a very long look at your position on many levels. Because as far as I can tell the farthest you've got is 'it would be good' and 'people deserve it'. You haven't thought much past everyone won't have to worry about providing for basic needs. You haven't thought about it on an objective, functional level and what would actually if that's the way things were tomorrow. You haven't really thought about whether it is best for society.

I realize at some point someone's dislike of a person makes it impossible for them to look at an issue in an objective point of view. You are too caught up in what you think I am and too caught up in the emotion of what happened to you to look at your position in any other way. And you may think I don't like your proposal because I'm on the side of greed or i'm the slave or whatever. The fact is I disagree because it wouldn't work. it would make society worse.

 

[RodISHI]

Enslaving people into poverty does not help them improve themselves. In fact it creates a situation where these people do not have anyway to better themselves. They learn from generation to generation the habits of the people that they are associated with. When you enslave people with low wages and high cost of basic living needs you have basically stolen their dreams to improve their lives. It is called apathy.

You have a preconcieve idea that on a whole people will not work to improve their situations. You are in error.

 

[Bern80]

Enslaving people into poverty does not help them improve themselves. In fact it creates a situation where these people do not have anyway to better themselves.

First we need to tackle this assumption of enslavement. That implies that for some people it is simply impossible to improve themselves. How does that happen? I understand there may be greater barriers in the way for some, but impossible? how exactly?

They learn from generation to generation the habits of the people that they are associated with.

This is true. Mostly from a parent/child perspective. If you have bad parents (however you choose to define that) life is most definately going to be more difficult.

When you enslave people with low wages and high cost of basic living needs you have basically stolen their dreams to improve their lives. It is called apathy.

Unless you can show some evidence of this 'enslavement' that concept will have to remain an assumption. This gets back to one of the questions I can't seem to get a straight answer to. Is EVERY job suppossed to pay a living wage under your position?

You have a preconcieve idea that on a whole people will not work to improve their situations. You are in error.

This goes back to your 'because we are a society' idea. In that case there is a society you may want to read up on. William Bradford was among the first to form and lead a colony in the new world. At first the community practiced socialism essentially. The fruits of everyone's labor was put into a community pool and divided equally among everyone. This failed, of course because the level of effort one put forth didn't change what they would yield in return. If more effort does not yield greater return one figures out there is not point in putting forth more effort.

Another analogy to consider is your education growing up. School is very accurate metaphor for how you will be compensated for your efforts in life after school. Say you have class and passing is 65%, but not everyone is passing. One of two things would need to happen to get students to pass. They either put forth greater effort to attain the 65%, or we can do something that is analogous to what you have propossed. We can simply make it so 50% is now passing. Now have you made those kids that were failing better off by simply giving them a passing score?

 

[RodISHI]

Bern, Rod said tell you, "Bottom rail on top now".

 

[Bern80]

Bern, Rod said tell you, "Bottom rail on top now".

I have no idea what that means, unfortunately. Constructive response as always though. if you're going to be done with the conversation, be done with the conversation. if you want to have an actual objective discussion about your position, have it. Is there some other reason you seem completely incapable of coming with any argument at all to defend your position.

 

[RodISHI]

Bern, Rod said tell you, "Bottom rail on top now".

I have no idea what that means, unfortunately. Constructive response as always though. if you're going to be done with the conversation, be done with the conversation. if you want to have an actual objective discussion about your position, have it. Is there some other reason you seem completely incapable of coming with any argument at all to defend your position.

How old are you bern?

 

[Bern80]

bern, rod said tell you, "bottom rail on top now".

i have no idea what that means, unfortunately. Constructive response as always though. If you're going to be done with the conversation, be done with the conversation. If you want to have an actual objective discussion about your position, have it. Is there some other reason you seem completely incapable of coming with any argument at all to defend your position.

how old are you bern?

28

 

[garyd]

I notice a common theme in all your sources the word Socialist seems to appear somewhere... This trells me right off the top that they are full of horse crap. Only two things enslave workers in the modern world, socialists governments, and Authoritarian regimes. The only people who are enslaved are those who serve greed. If, you yourself are not greedy it is damn hard for anyone to enslave you.

If I don't like and respect the people I worklfor I go find another Job. It isn't that hard if you have a skilled trade and are willing to look a bit rather than grousing about the idiots for whom you currently work. I'm 60 by the way. I read mostly non fiction, There are only about three or four writers of fiction I read anymore, Pratchett, Koontz (and only the series featuring the aptly named Odd thomas,) King, Webber.

 

[RodISHI]

Bern it comes from a civil war account.

As the former slave who ran away from the plantation and joined the Union Army said to his former master who he saw among a
group of prisoners being held under guard as he rode past on horseback.

"Looks like the bottom rail on top now, Massa!"

That was the phrase the slave used to the let former master who used to have him build rail fences that the master was no longer in charge.


I do not need to defend anything bern. I have not need to debate with you or anyone else for that matter. I may discuss with you. Even that has it's limitations.

Your question:

First we need to tackle this assumption of enslavement. That implies that for some people it is simply impossible to improve themselves. How does that happen? I understand there may be greater barriers in the way for some, but impossible? how exactly?

Wages have not kept up with inflation. It is that simple.

Unless you can show some evidence of this 'enslavement' that concept will have to remain an assumption. This gets back to one of the questions I can't seem to get a straight answer to. Is EVERY job suppossed to pay a living wage under your position?

YES, absolutly when a man or a woman works they should at the very least be able to cover their basic living costs and needs. Food, housing, utilities at the very bare minimum. If they cannot they are nothing more than slaves to the corporate system. For those buying a home there is no free choice once they already sold themselves into a mortgage for an over priced, over inflated, bloated home. For those renting they have to rent what is available or live in the streets. Many do not make enough to cover those very basic cost. You claim you want proof and the proof is every where you look bern. Heck one cannot even rent a motel slum room for less than $150.00 a WEEK. That is more than half of what a minimum wage worker that works 40 hours a week takes home.

"Corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
— Abraham Lincoln

That quote from Abe fairly well covers it and we are already there.

When the corporates allowed money to flow into the credit markets it was not thier money that they were using to inflate the markets.

Corporations have been given free reign in this country to enslave the poeple, the leaders of the people and the people let them do it. Passively inch by inch the freedoms were taken away and the children were left to grow up watching infomercials and dreaming of being game kings. You claim that is an assumption when the proof is all around but you dare not look because you may see it.

This goes back to your 'because we are a society' idea. In that case there is a society you may want to read up on. William Bradford was among the first to form and lead a colony in the new world. At first the community practiced socialism essentially. The fruits of everyone's labor was put into a community pool and divided equally among everyone. This failed, of course because the level of effort one put forth didn't change what they would yield in return. If more effort does not yield greater return one figures out there is not point in putting forth more effort.

That is exactly what we have when the corporates rule over the people as it is now. And it is failing. They pooled money from investments of the common man and took over by intrigue, paper shuffle or force. Either way the corporates have ruled and here we are.

I like being able to buy fresh cherries in the winter yet not at the expense of my freedom or anothers freedom.

Another analogy to consider is your education growing up. School is very accurate metaphor for how you will be compensated for your efforts in life after school. Say you have class and passing is 65%, but not everyone is passing. One of two things would need to happen to get students to pass. They either put forth greater effort to attain the 65%, or we can do something that is analogous to what you have propossed. We can simply make it so 50% is now passing. Now have you made those kids that were failing better off by simply giving them a passing score?

No. You give their parents a break by insuring that at least one parent has a chance at a decent paying job the family can live off of so the other one can spend enough time with the child to insure the child is not simply abandoned to day care or depending on the school to do their job of raising their children properly.

Allowing corporates to send many of the American jobs overseas degraded that cohesive family unit possibilty even further.

Regardless of how you think or if you think it is just a matter of because what happened to me bern that I feel the way I do does not make sense if you really take the time to consider it. I personally made the choice not to sell to a large corporation because for me life is more than just the money. In that I suffered the consequences of what these giants (corporations) are capable of doing and have been doing to many who have had what was once upon a time called the American dream. If it had not been for what happened I would also be as oblivious as you and many others appear to be to the situation as a whole.

 

[editec]

Nobody expects EVERY job to pay a living wage.

But when enough jobs don't, the system needs to be revamped until ENOUGH jobs do again.

Now you may have contempt for the guy who serves you coffee or who cleans your office, but those people are serving the system, too.

How poor must they be in order for your ego to be satisfied that you are better than them, anyway?

You who show a complete lack of sympathy for your neighbors are going to understand that their pain when it eventually becomes your pain,too, folks.

If their lives turn to shit, your society is going to turn to shit, too.

And I don't give a flying fuck how tall the gates are in your gated communities, either.

Sooner or later you have to rub elbows with those untermench and soooner or later one of those untermench's kids is going to thorughly ruin your day or perhaps you wives's day or perhaps you kid's day.

Shit rolls downhill until there's so much shit that it's got no place to go but BACK UP THE SYSTEM.

When too many people got nothing, then they also got nothing to lose.

Your guns will NOT protect you from a society gone mad.

The only solution to an economically unjust society is economic justice.

We might very well see just what it means when too many of us have nothing to lose, sooner than any of us would like.

 

[RodISHI]

You know I recall back when my parents lived in a tent while dad had a job away from where we lived. It was a necessity until those first few paychecks. Yet today that is not even possible because you can't just set a tent anywhere and campgrounds run $15 to $35 bucks a day. Throughout the country on a whole there are no places people can live while trying to get on their feet even.

 

[Orange_Juice]

Parties over for these people. Obama already fired a shot over their bow by restricting CEO pay now it's time to upwardly adjust tax rates on these people to pay for the wars, bailouts and incresed social and environmental spending

 

[Old Rocks]

Nobody expects EVERY job to pay a living wage.

But when enough jobs don't, the system needs to be revamped until ENOUGH jobs do again.

Now you may have contempt for the guy who serves you coffee or who cleans your office, but those people are serving the system, too.

How poor must they be in order for your ego to be satisfied that you are better than them, anyway?

You who show a complete lack of sympathy for your neighbors are going to understand that their pain when it eventually becomes your pain,too, folks.

If their lives turn to shit, your society is going to turn to shit, too.

And I don't give a flying fuck how tall the gates are in your gated communities, either.

Sooner or later you have to rub elbows with those untermench and soooner or later one of those untermench's kids is going to thorughly ruin your day or perhaps you wives's day or perhaps you kid's day.

Shit rolls downhill until there's so much shit that it's got no place to go but BACK UP THE SYSTEM.

When too many people got nothing, then they also got nothing to lose.

Your guns will NOT protect you from a society gone mad.

The only solution to an economically unjust society is economic justice.

We might very well see just what it means when too many of us have nothing to lose, sooner than any of us would like.

The problem is that now we are seeing many people with a very complete knowledge of the system losing their jobs, their homes, and having no knowledge of how to access the social safety net, little as that is. These are people that know where the levers are that can bring society to a screeching halt. Gated communitys still function on grid power, and the fences hardly defend against dynamite.

When you have enough people in the crafts and trades out of work, and those in middle managment, you are going to have change. It can come through legitimate channels, as in the last Great Republican Depression, or it can be through violence. The latter course is catastrophic to all concerned, but may well happen if those who have been in charge prevent the neccessary change.

 

[RodISHI]

Nobody expects EVERY job to pay a living wage.

But when enough jobs don't, the system needs to be revamped until ENOUGH jobs do again.

Now you may have contempt for the guy who serves you coffee or who cleans your office, but those people are serving the system, too.

How poor must they be in order for your ego to be satisfied that you are better than them, anyway?

You who show a complete lack of sympathy for your neighbors are going to understand that their pain when it eventually becomes your pain,too, folks.

If their lives turn to shit, your society is going to turn to shit, too.

And I don't give a flying fuck how tall the gates are in your gated communities, either.

Sooner or later you have to rub elbows with those untermench and soooner or later one of those untermench's kids is going to thorughly ruin your day or perhaps you wives's day or perhaps you kid's day.

Shit rolls downhill until there's so much shit that it's got no place to go but BACK UP THE SYSTEM.

When too many people got nothing, then they also got nothing to lose.

Your guns will NOT protect you from a society gone mad.

The only solution to an economically unjust society is economic justice.

We might very well see just what it means when too many of us have nothing to lose, sooner than any of us would like.

The problem is that now we are seeing many people with a very complete knowledge of the system losing their jobs, their homes, and having no knowledge of how to access the social safety net, little as that is. These are people that know where the levers are that can bring society to a screeching halt. Gated communitys still function on grid power, and the fences hardly defend against dynamite.

When you have enough people in the crafts and trades out of work, and those in middle managment, you are going to have change. It can come through legitimate channels, as in the last Great Republican Depression, or it can be through violence. The latter course is catastrophic to all concerned, but may well happen if those who have been in charge prevent the neccessary change.

What really gets me as I learned so abruptly is one is basically powerless against out of control giants that have ruled this nation with the little kingdoms that many of them have built for themselves alone and anyone willing to sell out to them.

 

[Bern80]

Nobody expects EVERY job to pay a living wage.

I believe she just said quite cleary she believes exactly that

But when enough jobs don't, the system needs to be revamped until ENOUGH jobs do again.

Do you notice a common theme here. In the world of you and RodISHI it's never you that is suppossed to adapt. Everything is always suppossed to adapt to you. Do you not understand how creating incentives to not better yourself hurts society?

Now you may have contempt for the guy who serves you coffee or who cleans your office, but those people are serving the system, too.

Frankly that is selling the person serving coffee a little short. Is that really all that individual is capable of. Is that the pinnacle of his potential? In most cases you know and know the answer to that is no. My contempt comes in when people like, or you on their behalf, complain about how unfair things are and about how things are suppossed to change for them even though they have the potential to self improve. As with human nature, and Bradford's colony proved, when the outcome is acceptable enough people follow the path of least resistance and obviously that path for the coffee server is to hope there are enough people like you and RodISHI who will keep him from having to put any effort toward change.

How poor must they be in order for your ego to be satisfied that you are better than them, anyway?

It has nothing to do with one's level of wealth, and I really don't think about it that much. But here is a really harsh reality. You two like to toss around this idea that no body is better than anybody else. Well the fact is some people ARE better than other people. Some people's motivation is so high that they work their tails off and in most cases those people aren't even going to enter into this living wage debate. Others are lazy. Other's are not so much lazy as apathetic. They would like to be in a better financial position and are probably feeling some belt tightening, so to speak, from the current economy, but things aren't bad enough that they are willing to take action to improve their position.

You who show a complete lack of sympathy for your neighbors are going to understand that their pain when it eventually becomes your pain,too, folks.

The only people I have little sympathy for are those capable of improving themselves but refuse to and complain about how the system needs to bend to them.

If their lives turn to shit, your society is going to turn to shit, too.

And I don't give a flying fuck how tall the gates are in your gated communities, either.

Will this never end? Yet again you decide to assume things about my life in order to bolster your argument. I have stated what my life looks like several times now. I make $10.80/hr (now due to our 10% pay cut.) My rent is $440 a month. My apartment is maybe 500 sq. ft. Sound gated to you? I am probably in reality not all that different than the 'victims' you complain the system is screwing over. Yet despite my life being what it is, knowing my employer and knowing my potential, knowing the opportunities out there. I simply can not bring myself to claim victim status and yet people like yourself and RodISHI are so quick to claim it FOR people.

Sooner or later you have to rub elbows with those untermench and soooner or later one of those untermench's kids is going to thorughly ruin your day or perhaps you wives's day or perhaps you kid's day.

Shit rolls downhill until there's so much shit that it's got no place to go but BACK UP THE SYSTEM.

When too many people got nothing, then they also got nothing to lose.

Your guns will NOT protect you from a society gone mad.

The only solution to an economically unjust society is economic justice.

We might very well see just what it means when too many of us have nothing to lose, sooner than any of us would like.

Where is the personal accountability in any of this. I have yet to see it. You and RodISHI have clearly established there is very little that a person is responsible for. Well, what are they responsible for in your world? In RodISHI's world they aren't even responsible for working hard in school, as any job they get will provide for them. In your world obviously if things are bad for anyone it isn't their fault. they are victims. Are you seriously going to sit there and pretend for these people you bemoan there is no ownership on their part as to where they find themselves?

That is where the problem is Ed. You can not change what you don't acknowledge. If you do not acknowldge your role in where and why you are where you are, where you are will not change. And every person bares at least some level of responsibility for where they are. People like you and RodISHI tell people to ignore that. It's not their fault, it's the system. Don't you worry you poor victim you just sit tight, will fix the system for you so you don't have to do shit.

 

[Bern80]

Wages have not kept up with inflation. It is that simple.

Agreed. There are a couple solutions to that. We can do as you have propossed and make the system such that the person doesn't have to improve themselves if inflation is exceeding their cost of living. If everyone was incapable of self improvement I'd say okay. But that isn't the case. Again to the strength of society. In your scenario the person does not have to adapt, they don't have to improve themselves and thus the society as whole becomes weaker. Or you could take your god given ability and decide that YOU are going to keep up with inflation.

YES, absolutly when a man or a woman works they should at the very least be able to cover their basic living costs and needs. Food, housing, utilities at the very bare minimum. If they cannot they are nothing more than slaves to the corporate system. For those buying a home there is no free choice once they already sold themselves into a mortgage for an over priced, over inflated, bloated home. For those renting they have to rent what is available or live in the streets. Many do not make enough to cover those very basic cost. You claim you want proof and the proof is every where you look bern. Heck one cannot even rent a motel slum room for less than $150.00 a WEEK. That is more than half of what a minimum wage worker that works 40 hours a week takes home.

Again this is where you need to examine the reality of your position. If EVERY job is to pay a living wage, that has ramifications in the real world. FACT: It lowers the level of responsibility on the part of the individual to provide for themselves. In reality they probably wouldnt' even need to graduate high school considering the skill set for some jobs. If they don't need to even graduate what is the point of working hard in school?

i ask you the same question I ask Ed. what is the level of responsibility on the part of the individual? Are they not responsible for educating themselves on how their mortgage works? If min wage is not cutting it for living expenses why is it not their resposibility, assuming they are capable, to better themselves?