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Because the lobby firms are buying our politicians into overall bad decisions while the rest are screwed.If the system of paying people for making our society work is so well thought out, why is this nation going broke?
Because all Americans are lazy people, except for you smug servants to the master class?
Well here's a head's up for you guys...the nation you all claim to love so much is bankrupt.
The masters that you all believe are geniuses worth hundreds of millions of dollars a year have screwed the pooch.
The most productive people in American, the professional class and the upper middle class are paying far too much of the tax bill because your masters aren't paying their fair share.
The middle class is dying, and the lower classes are getting deperate.
Your sanguine indifference to the wholesale injustice of the system is noted, and dismissed by most of us for what it is..nothing but loyalty to a social system which has taken us from the wealthiest nation in the world, to the world's largest debtor nation in less than half my lifetime.
Why don't you servants pack your masters bags and run along so you can go fuck up another nation?
We've got this one to repair, now, and obviously your dubious talents aren't going to be missed.
And one can argue that the reason the country is bankrupt is NOT the fault of the people who work every day to improve their lot but rather the heavy handed mismanagement of the ever growing ,ever more expensive government.
Because the lobby firms are buying our politicians into overall bad decisions while the rest are screwed.If the system of paying people for making our society work is so well thought out, why is this nation going broke?
Because all Americans are lazy people, except for you smug servants to the master class?
Well here's a head's up for you guys...the nation you all claim to love so much is bankrupt.
The masters that you all believe are geniuses worth hundreds of millions of dollars a year have screwed the pooch.
The most productive people in American, the professional class and the upper middle class are paying far too much of the tax bill because your masters aren't paying their fair share.
The middle class is dying, and the lower classes are getting deperate.
Your sanguine indifference to the wholesale injustice of the system is noted, and dismissed by most of us for what it is..nothing but loyalty to a social system which has taken us from the wealthiest nation in the world, to the world's largest debtor nation in less than half my lifetime.
Why don't you servants pack your masters bags and run along so you can go fuck up another nation?
We've got this one to repair, now, and obviously your dubious talents aren't going to be missed.
And one can argue that the reason the country is bankrupt is NOT the fault of the people who work every day to improve their lot but rather the heavy handed mismanagement of the ever growing ,ever more expensive government.
I do not have a problem paying my fair share in income taxes either. The is probably a "bad management decision" in your book on my part too. yet then again I have no problem collecting food stamps when they are needed either because I prepaid the system in case this day ever came.
If one believes that the system isn't broken, as for instance many here apparently do, then it is reasonable that they object to the bail out.
Not true. One can believe the system is broken and that companies who violated the rules of sound business should have gone out of business. Companies that were sound stay in business. that's how what's broken gets fixed.
IN your rush to find something you objected to, you apparently didn't read my words very closely.
If you believe that companies violated the rules of sound business are the only ones in trouble, then you believe that the system isn't broken, no?
However, if you believe that the banks have screwed the pooch, and apparently enough people in a positions of power in both parties think exactly that, then failing to do something to get the economy going is criminal.
If people broke the law then try them for breaking the law. Do not use tax payer money to keep them in business.
Yes, I understand that POV.
Sadly, I think that what we are doing is hoping to reconsitute this economic system again, but failing to ask ourselves how it failed to begin with. Hence, even if they somehow manage to get things going again, their efforts will inevitably be for naught.
The real estate meltdown is a sympton of the flaws in our system, not the cause of its failing.
what is sad is that the way you want to reconstitute the economy is to give the government more power over the people.
You presume, doespite all the ASCII I've devoted to complaining about the BAILOUT as designed, that I support what the government is doing, don't you?
And some of the flaws in that system are of the government's making no?
Of course!
Since the government oversees the rules and regulations which these businesses work with, I'd go so far as to suggest that MOST of what is wrong with out economy right now is the government's fault.
You really are confused about what I am, what I stand for, and why, aren't you?
You so want me to be a straw man but sweetie, I am not here to live down to your expectations.
If you want to have a debate with a caracature leftwing fruitcake, then by all means do so, but don't bother to credit me with your inane misreadings of what I just wrote, okay?
If one believes that the system isn't broken, as for instance many here apparently do, then it is reasonable that they object to the bail out.
IN your rush to find something you objected to, you apparently didn't read my words very closely.
If you believe that companies violated the rules of sound business are the only ones in trouble, then you believe that the system isn't broken, no?
Yes, I understand that POV.
You presume, doespite all the ASCII I've devoted to complaining about the BAILOUT as designed, that I support what the government is doing, don't you?
And some of the flaws in that system are of the government's making no?
Of course!
Since the government oversees the rules and regulations which these businesses work with, I'd go so far as to suggest that MOST of what is wrong with out economy right now is the government's fault.
You really are confused about what I am, what I stand for, and why, aren't you?
You so want me to be a straw man but sweetie, I am not here to live down to your expectations.
If you want to have a debate with a caracature leftwing fruitcake, then by all means do so, but don't bother to credit me with your inane misreadings of what I just wrote, okay?
but it is fine for you to say i am on my knees to the "master" so in that light you are obviously as mistaken about me and my point of view.
This is way to much bs to answer skull. I am not going to keep wasting my whole morning responding to your usual line of garbage about the person who sweeps your porch or rakes your leaves. So here is the last response you get to that same ole same ole line of bs you spout.I still would not ask anyone to do a job that I would not have personally been willing to do myself. It is called ethics.
that is not ethics. but it is a poor management decision.
Yes no doubt when time is considered a factor or when or if I did not know personally how to do a job I hire another to do that job for me. Attorneys, accountants, bookeepers, etc...
I still would not try to skimp someone else out of a decent living. For any reason.
So the kid you hire to sweep your porch or wash your windows should be paid enough to "make a decent living"?
I do because the market dictates that I must. And 2 out of my 10 employees are paid over $55 an hour but the support staff is not paid that much. they are paid slightly over the national average for their positions. Which is above minimum wage.Even when we were training people they made more than minimum wage. Alas there are/were government programs that assist an employer to help defray cost to train employees if the employer takes the time to file for these things.
My business was very successful even to the point when I quit contracting the state I contracted in asked me to come back. I declined.
You have said previously you pay your people well above minimum wage. Eight times that amount if I recall. How does that make you qualified to determine everyone else should work for only the current minimum wage?
And I am not determining, nor am I suggesting that everyone work for only minimum wage. I am saying that there are some jobs out there that are not worth more than minimum wage. Jobs that are not important to the market or those menial tasks like raking leaves or sweeping floors are simply not worth more. And it makes more sense for me to pay someone $8 an hour to do those jobs than for me to waste that time doing those jobs where I could be bringing in significantly more money if i didn't do them.
Heck people at Walmart can't even afford to buy the groceries where they work. I have a problem with that. Yet we had this discussion before and it has not a darn thing to do with a few of the richest in American doubling their wealth does it? Unless of course you ar one of them sucking the lifeblood out the country at everyone elses expense.
I know a girl that works as Walmart and earns over $10 an hour i don't find that to be unreasonable for what she does.
And why do you assume that one doubled his wealth at the expense of everyone else? He could have doubled his wealth by bringing some product or service to the public that made their lives better. Or he could have merely invested wisely and not had any direct involvement with any company.
That you believe that anyone who has more money than you think they should have is somehow exploiting people is your prejudice and bias, it is not necessarily true.
The basic tenet of the market is that people who freely trade goods and services, and labor is included in that, all benefit from that.
If you work at a job and you don't feel that the money you are being paid for your labor is worth at least a dollar more than what your labor is worth then you are free to sell your labor to another employer or you are free to develop a skill that the market will pay more for.
It is and always has been your choice to accept or leave a job.
No ... it's everyones fault, for differing reasons. Why do people insist on not taking the blame when blame is due? Are you so arrogant that you don't want a solution but instead just want an excuse to blame someone else?
IN your rush to find something you objected to, you apparently didn't read my words very closely.
If you believe that companies violated the rules of sound business are the only ones in trouble, then you believe that the system isn't broken, no?
Yes, I understand that POV.
You presume, doespite all the ASCII I've devoted to complaining about the BAILOUT as designed, that I support what the government is doing, don't you?
Of course!
Since the government oversees the rules and regulations which these businesses work with, I'd go so far as to suggest that MOST of what is wrong with out economy right now is the government's fault.
You really are confused about what I am, what I stand for, and why, aren't you?
You so want me to be a straw man but sweetie, I am not here to live down to your expectations.
If you want to have a debate with a caracature leftwing fruitcake, then by all means do so, but don't bother to credit me with your inane misreadings of what I just wrote, okay?
but it is fine for you to say i am on my knees to the "master" so in that light you are obviously as mistaken about me and my point of view.
Fair enough,
I apologise for describing you as a pandering tool.
I still would not ask anyone to do a job that I would not have personally been willing to do myself. It is called ethics.
that is not ethics. but it is a poor management decision.
So the kid you hire to sweep your porch or wash your windows should be paid enough to "make a decent living"?
I do because the market dictates that I must. And 2 out of my 10 employees are paid over $55 an hour but the support staff is not paid that much. they are paid slightly over the national average for their positions. Which is above minimum wage.
And I am not determining, nor am I suggesting that everyone work for only minimum wage. I am saying that there are some jobs out there that are not worth more than minimum wage. Jobs that are not important to the market or those menial tasks like raking leaves or sweeping floors are simply not worth more. And it makes more sense for me to pay someone $8 an hour to do those jobs than for me to waste that time doing those jobs where I could be bringing in significantly more money if i didn't do them.
Heck people at Walmart can't even afford to buy the groceries where they work. I have a problem with that. Yet we had this discussion before and it has not a darn thing to do with a few of the richest in American doubling their wealth does it? Unless of course you ar one of them sucking the lifeblood out the country at everyone elses expense.
I know a girl that works as Walmart and earns over $10 an hour i don't find that to be unreasonable for what she does.
And why do you assume that one doubled his wealth at the expense of everyone else? He could have doubled his wealth by bringing some product or service to the public that made their lives better. Or he could have merely invested wisely and not had any direct involvement with any company.
That you believe that anyone who has more money than you think they should have is somehow exploiting people is your prejudice and bias, it is not necessarily true.
The basic tenet of the market is that people who freely trade goods and services, and labor is included in that, all benefit from that.
If you work at a job and you don't feel that the money you are being paid for your labor is worth at least a dollar more than what your labor is worth then you are free to sell your labor to another employer or you are free to develop a skill that the market will pay more for.
It is and always has been your choice to accept or leave a job.
Your making an argument over the guy the sweeps your porch and the guy you have raking your lawn is a swipe at lumping all workers into what you refer to as menial work.
no that is your interpretation of what I said.
Fact is if you hire a landscaping business to rake your leaves as you call it those people are making an average of fifteen to twenty dollars an hour here in Iowa or over in Idaho. Of course unless you are hiring illegals to do that job or the kid down the street. Which in that case you are trying to twist facts to your twisted veiws/arguments that people should not be able to make a living wage when they work for it!
which is precisely why i do not hire landscaping companies but rather local kids from the high school or middle school to do chores.
You call paying people a living wage "poor management"
No i didn't. i said it was poor management for me to do a job that would draw me away from more profitable activity if I could hire out that job for less than the money I could make in that same time.
others call it job security when they have people that can and will actually perform the work that the firm was hired for and not rip off either the customer or the contractor who has obligated to fill the needs of the customer because they do not make a living wage.
you obviously didn't understand when i said my employees that take are of my customers are all paid more then the national average for their positions. but I take that as you think i should pay the guy who sweeps the floor twice a week the same 55 an hour I pay my top salaried people.
It is also called simply "resources management". Hiring people that have enough intelligence to operate a mop, sweep a floor, and empty a trash can. You may make light of that but I can assure you not every moron can do those jobs.
really. I've seen severely retarded people with Down's syndrome empty a trash can just a well as a PhD could. And that is not a put down just a statement of fact. really anyone with 2 hands can mop a fucking floor
My company provided overall contract services that provided maintenance for everything above ground and underground daily that included any minor or major breakdowns that it takes to operate the commercial buildings and the surrounding areas of landscaping that we maintained. Granted the lightest work was that of daily operations mopping, cleaning, trash, sweeping, etc... Even those jobs require some knowledge in order to be performed sastifactory to meet the expectations of both the state and the public. I am sure you would not appreciate walking into a state/federal or facility that was filthy, broken, damaged etc... SEE they spend millions and millions of your tax payer dollars to build these public buildings, install the landscaping and it takes a bit more than just hiring any moron to mop the floors or maintain those buildings can cost you more in tax dollars if the person doing that job you probably think any moron could do.
OK so there is no such thing as menial labor. everyone should be paid how much 30k a year no matter what they do?. come on washing and waxing a floor is no big deal.
You can make the argument in your twisted concepts that hiring of illegals that work for less in order to buff up your bottom line is "poor management" also. It is also unethical plus illegal. That does not stop many from doing such though now does it?
see here's the thing. I wouldn't hire illegals because well IT"S FUCKING ILLEGAL!!!!
That I personally know of in Texas, Iowa and Louisiana the contractors hire illegals. This has drove the market price for employment of American equipment operators into the ground. Many of those employers have that twisted "poor management" ideal you have. Why in the world would they pay an American operator twenty bucks an hour when they can hire an illegal for ten or less. The same goes for concrete finishers. Drive through Des Moines in the summer you'll see illegals finishing concrete on small public works contracts. Why do these employers do that? Because they can and people like you who would like to keep that minimum wage below a living wage assist these employers in doing such by claiming ethical employers are just "poor management". That is three states I have personally observed thsi practice God knows how many others have the same shit going on.
Ibid
In the hog industry here our neighbor works for a supplier. The neighbor has a sideline of renting houses to them for their illegal immigrant workers. It falls back to that "poor management" you are claiming for those unwilling to go with this practice.
Ibid
Or how about heading out to the West Des Moines mall and having a bite to eat in the food court there. The rich boys here built that place by pooling their money and getting some tax payer money added in there too. Heck most of those workers can't speak a bit of English. They built the buildings rented the space to wives, family members etc to employ more illegal workers and give the rich a nice fancy place to shop at a mall near the gated communities that they built for the bankers, insurance workers etc in Des Moines. Would not want those rich people to have to drive out where regular folks shop now would we.
ibid
You say you pay above minimum wage. Yet you try to bitch about insuring that each has an equal opportunity to make a living wage.
if some one wants to make a living they can, that does not mean that i cannot hire out odd jobs, menial jobs to to the person who will do those jobs for the least money?
i ask a kid if he'll rake my lawn for $8 an hour he says sure!. But i have obviously committed some sort of sin by your book right? I should have paid a landscaper 15 an hour right?
There is no argueing with ignorance skull and I see this as nothing more than spitting in the wind to keep this conversation going if you are to blind to see that the type of shit going on for the last twenty years has gotten so prevailant that these guys don't even worry about paying their taxes until they get appointed to a position and it gets looked into. Our laws mean nothing to people to greedy to see past their own noses.
yes as you can see from my posts. i am the fucking government's biggest fan.
(that was sarcasm in case you missed it)
The system as it is has no doubt taken away the want to for people who would and have worked hard with their own labor to improve their lives and trhe lives of those they are close too. There has been little done to make sure many are held accountable and it is the poor man in this country that is footing the bill with his sweat and labor while assholes sit around and make claims to others like you are saying it is just "poor management" on their part. When in fact it is that many of us out here are unwilling to sell ourselves into a system anymore that requires only the little guy to be accountable so the rich can get richer at the expense of others sweat and blood.
So you and bern have it figured right. I have no incentative to do better at this point within this corrupt system of our country as it is and I sure as hell do not hold another accountable for feeling the same way I do when my own countrymen would rather sell themselves for nothing rather than make everyone accountable equally.
because you feel you are a victim, we all should?
No because every average worker out there is a victim when greed comes into play by those who do not follow the rules of ethical and legal procedure. Fairly obvious as you see this nation tumbling.
No because every average worker out there is a victim when greed comes into play by those who do not follow the rules of ethical and legal procedure. Fairly obvious as you see this nation tumbling.
No because every average worker out there is a victim when greed comes into play by those who do not follow the rules of ethical and legal procedure. Fairly obvious as you see this nation tumbling.
Sorry, I am so sick of hearing this argument. First it was Bush Jr.s fault now the wealthy. The tumbling is from all walks of life, our economy is screwed because of the credit vacuum (which the middle class is actually the most responsible for). The wealthy are only responsible for the poor working and living conditions which the laborers must endure (the poorest) simply because of greed. They are suppose to be organizing the company so that it creates a profit so that the laborers can be paid more, but instead they are shipping jobs over seas to avoid paying more for the employees.
Almost all mortgage companies played by the rules and the minute the price of houses began to fall they all went belly up and drug the financial markets down with them. Seems to me that what is indiocated here is that the damn rules were broken.
I am sure by what you are trying to say here you really did not take the time personally to look into the links I gave did you?they didn't have a choice. The rules in place dictated to them that they have a certain percentage of loans that they knew going in were bad in order to have some that were good. Local zoning codes and neighborhood rules meant houses were going to be 2 to 2.5 times as large as they were 40 years ago and sit on 4 to 8 times as much land. This in turn meant prices were going to be far higher for a new home and that made things like 40 year mortgages and floating interest rates a necessity to cover for the bad loans it also required an ever increasing real estate price line and when that disapeared voilka catastrophe.
There is so much more involved in this than meets the eye it isn't even funny and evferyone wants to blame Bush for something that in truth he had almost no control over. In fact, almost no one truly grasps fully yet and damn few are even trying to figure it out because it's so damn easy and so knee jerk on the part of the left to just blame Bush that almost no one is even tryhing to look at the whole picture.
No because every average worker out there is a victim when greed comes into play by those who do not follow the rules of ethical and legal procedure. Fairly obvious as you see this nation tumbling.
What utter ignorance. Are you telling me that these banks had seven billion dollars in mortgages in American that they were force to make? If that is what you are eluding too you need to go back to school and take the math courses over again. Seven million is almost two million dollars per every man, woman and child that is a citizen of the United States.I'm talking about the Mortgage industry without whose collpase the banking industry is just fine.
As for banks making money? Why who'd a thunk it. Isn't that what they are supposed to do?
I'm sick of people acting like a CEO's salary which frequenly is less that 1% of net income is breaking the bank. It doesn't Bonuses in 2008 generally reflect activities in 2007.
