Torture and College Life

[garyd]

The water boarding was not done for several minutes that wasn't permitted they were sometimes held in that position for several minutes but the waterboarding itself did not last for several minutes per instance. By the way people have died from sitting for too long a period of time on an airplane.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I have no problem with this post. It is your opinion.

Mine is different, and the meaning of the original post is that the items claimed to be torture can be closely mirrored in mundane events in the ordinary lives of American citizens.

Do they 'torture' themselves? If not, then what is the reason that those on your side are so enraged with respect to these carefully crafted techniques designed to gain intell without real harm?

Political perspective, not objectivity. This is fair- except to the extent that it besmirches the character, reputation, and motivation of those whose only goal is to protect the country.

Many of us feel that some of these techniques (once again, most of us are talking about sleep deprevation, walling, and waterboarding, as well as stress positions, which are somewhat mentioned on this list but not listed as a technique of their own.) cross the line into torture. The examples you gave in the OP for waterboarding and sleep deprivation are not honest or accurate examples of what those are like. Ordinary American citizens do not simulate drowning experiences for several minutes while being held down, or force themselves to stand without sleep for five days straight, or have themselves shaken violently by collars into walls. Try standing on your toes with your arms above your head, reaching as high as you can. try it for ten or twenty minutes. now imagine doing that for twenty hours. or forty, or sixty.

" stand without sleep for five days straight,"
"You have informed us that to date, more than a dozen detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 48 hours, and three detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 96 hours."
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

"drowning experiences for several minutes "
"air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds "
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

" have themselves shaken violently by collars into walls. "
""A flexible false wall will be constructed. It is the individual's shoulder blades that hit the wall. During this motion, the head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a c-collar effect to help prevent whiplash …"
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

"not honest or accurate examples of what those are like..."
Now, who was inaccurate?

Now that that is cleared up, it appears that you have an ax to grind.

 

[Pyrite]

" stand without sleep for five days straight,"
"You have informed us that to date, more than a dozen detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 48 hours, and three detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 96 hours."
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

OK, more than four days. I'm not much off here.

"drowning experiences for several minutes "
"air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds "
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

they usually do this more than once in a session that can last several minutes. sorry if my language was unclear.

" have themselves shaken violently by collars into walls. "
""A flexible false wall will be constructed. It is the individual's shoulder blades that hit the wall. During this motion, the head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a c-collar effect to help prevent whiplash …"
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

"not honest or accurate examples of what those are like..."
Now, who was inaccurate?

Now that that is cleared up, it appears that you have an ax to grind.

While my descriptions were not clinical, you cannot seriously allege they were far off base.

 

[Valerie]

Human Rights First | Us Law & Security | Torture: Quick Facts

 

[Meister]

" stand without sleep for five days straight,"
"You have informed us that to date, more than a dozen detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 48 hours, and three detainees have been subjected to sleep deprivation of more than 96 hours."
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

OK, more than four days. I'm not much off here.

"drowning experiences for several minutes "
"air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds "
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

they usually do this more than once in a session that can last several minutes. sorry if my language was unclear.

" have themselves shaken violently by collars into walls. "
""A flexible false wall will be constructed. It is the individual's shoulder blades that hit the wall. During this motion, the head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a c-collar effect to help prevent whiplash …"
Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

"not honest or accurate examples of what those are like..."
Now, who was inaccurate?

Now that that is cleared up, it appears that you have an ax to grind.

While my descriptions were not clinical, you cannot seriously allege they were far off base.

How does it feel to get spanked by Political Chic?

 

[catzmeow]

Is it possible that we have defined ‘torture’ down to this level? I think not. Those claiming it’s torture are simply the same anti-war, America-hating liberals with Bush Derangement Syndrome, hiding behind some feigned righteous indignation as a strategy to impede the success of American policy, in the hopes of another Viet Nam debacle.
[/COLOR]

Your user title is "fighting thugs and liberals."

Sadly, it appears that you've BECOME a thug. Well done.

 

[catzmeow]

Memos shed light on CIA use of sleep deprivation - Los Angeles Times

A CIA inspector general's report issued in 2004 was more critical of the agency's use of sleep deprivation than it was of any other method besides waterboarding, according to officials familiar with the document, because of how the technique was applied.

The prisoners had their feet shackled to the floor and their hands cuffed close to their chins, according to the Justice Department memos.

Detainees were clad only in diapers and not allowed to feed themselves. A prisoner who started to drift off to sleep would tilt over and be caught by his chains.

The memos said that more than 25 of the CIA's prisoners were subjected to sleep deprivation. At one point, the agency was allowed to keep prisoners awake for as long as 11 days; the limit was later reduced to just over a week.

According to the memos, medical personnel were to make sure prisoners weren't injured. But a 2007 Red Cross report on the CIA program said that detainees' wrists and ankles bore scars from their shackles.

When detainees could no longer stand, they could be laid on the prison floor with their limbs "anchored to a far point on the floor in such a manner that the arms cannot be bent or used for balance or comfort," a May 10, 2005, memo said.

Laugh it up. This is funny stuff, innit?

Keep on applauding for the thugs who did this in the name of our country.

Shackles...scars...diapers...that's what this nation is apparently now about, and that's just fine with PC.

To be as blunt as possible: Your post made me fucking sick.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Just so that I can judge which is actually contemptible, girl-man, please provide a list of the terrorists who were treated with these techniques and subsequently died, were permanently maimed, and/or spent time in intensive care.

Dilawar and Habibullah. Oh wait, they weren't terrorists tho, just Arabs who got swept up in the US dragnet.

The Armed Services Committee traced the murder of Dilawar and Habibullah’s to interrogation policies at Bagram that were first proposed by Pentagon officials in October 2001, just days after the U.S. launched an attack against the Taliban government.

Senate Panel's Report Links Detainees' Murders to Bush's Torture Policy

Still think its all fun and games, dipshit?

Now, now, girly-man, watch your language, after all you're not talking to your mom.

So you contend that the interrogation techniques listed in my college-prank post caused the deaths that you note?

Have someone more literate read the report that you link to you, since your hate of America is clouding what abiltiy at comprehension you might have, in a calmer state.

"Indeed, a report into detainee abuse completed in 2004 by Vice Admiral Albert T. Church, the former Naval inspector general, who conducted an investigation into detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan at the request of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, specifically cleared Pentagon officials stating they “did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

A declassified version of the 360-page Church report, delivered to Congress in March 2004, said there was "no policy that condoned or authorized either abuse or torture," which critics of the Bush administration believed was a cover-up."
Senate Panel's Report Links Detainees' Murders to Bush's Torture Policy


The operative phrase: "did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

Further, it is telling that 'news' of the deaths of prisoners resulting from the listed techniques appears in this 'pubreport,' or 'impeachbush,' or 'islamicblog,' but not splashed on the front pages of the oh so 'conservative' NYTimes, or the LATimes, or the Washington Post, or the Boston Globe, or even the WSJournal.

Does this not seem odd to you, Nikki, or have you not looked under each and every rock, yet?

I bet the girl scouts could come up with some more serious techniques, but then you'd claim that they were Bush-robot-fascists.

Nicht wahr?

"dipshit"....a term on the LSAT he teaches? Or a description of the kids dumb enough to pay $150 or an hour of the philosopher's tutelage....

 

[Kalam]

Unfortunately, only half so.

Yes, that was my intention. I'd hoped to capture the tone of the OP and it appears as if I was successful in doing so.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Judging by the straws that you clutch at, you are unable to find fault with my list of college kid pranks as they correspond to the so-called torture list.

So let's review, the NYTimes enumeration is so flimsy, so insubstantial that it hardly approached the level of torture. Agreed?

Only the whiners and hand-wringing counter-American policy left-wing radicals find the list to be 'torture.' Further agreed?

Why does it always have to be the "list"? why is it all or nothing? maybe some things on the list cross the line, and others don't. I think that waterboarding, sleep deprevation for more than 48 hours, and walling cross the line.

I don't.

Torture has to involve permanent injury, joint dislocations, repeatedly breaking bones, severing limbs, that sort of stuff.....essentially what the N. Vietnamese did to their POWs and the N. Koreans and Japanese before them.

 

[Kalam]

To be as blunt as possible: Your post made me fucking sick.

Apparently, in the minds of some people, the best way to uphold America's constitution and moral values involves using those things as toilet paper.

 

[Nik]

Judging by the straws that you clutch at, you are unable to find fault with my list of college kid pranks as they correspond to the so-called torture list.

So let's review, the NYTimes enumeration is so flimsy, so insubstantial that it hardly approached the level of torture. Agreed?

Only the whiners and hand-wringing counter-American policy left-wing radicals find the list to be 'torture.' Further agreed?

Why does it always have to be the "list"? why is it all or nothing? maybe some things on the list cross the line, and others don't. I think that waterboarding, sleep deprevation for more than 48 hours, and walling cross the line.

I don't.

Torture has to involve permanent injury, joint dislocations, repeatedly breaking bones, severing limbs, that sort of stuff.....essentially what the N. Vietnamese did to their POWs and the N. Koreans and Japanese before them.

So repeated rape isn't torture? Interesting theory there.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Memos shed light on CIA use of sleep deprivation - Los Angeles Times

A CIA inspector general's report issued in 2004 was more critical of the agency's use of sleep deprivation than it was of any other method besides waterboarding, according to officials familiar with the document, because of how the technique was applied.

The prisoners had their feet shackled to the floor and their hands cuffed close to their chins, according to the Justice Department memos.

Detainees were clad only in diapers and not allowed to feed themselves. A prisoner who started to drift off to sleep would tilt over and be caught by his chains.

The memos said that more than 25 of the CIA's prisoners were subjected to sleep deprivation. At one point, the agency was allowed to keep prisoners awake for as long as 11 days; the limit was later reduced to just over a week.

According to the memos, medical personnel were to make sure prisoners weren't injured. But a 2007 Red Cross report on the CIA program said that detainees' wrists and ankles bore scars from their shackles.

When detainees could no longer stand, they could be laid on the prison floor with their limbs "anchored to a far point on the floor in such a manner that the arms cannot be bent or used for balance or comfort," a May 10, 2005, memo said.

Laugh it up. This is funny stuff, innit?

Keep on applauding for the thugs who did this in the name of our country.

Shackles...scars...diapers...that's what this nation is apparently now about, and that's just fine with PC.

To be as blunt as possible: Your post made me fucking sick.

I'm so glad than I get a chance to reply, unlike the less than honorable 'neg rep' that you applied.

Review.
1. My premise is that the techniques outlined in the NYTimes are far from torture.
2. One of our colleagues, showing the same kind of outrage that you evince, posted about deaths of detainees from these techniques. I showed that this is untrue.
3. I asked for the detainees were were killed, maimed, or hospitalized for extended time due to these techniques. None were provided.
4. Another board member offered that our soldiers who were exposed to these techniques knew, at least, that they weren't going to die. I documented that the detainees also knew that their religion allowed them to give up the intell after a point, a point that they could determine, therefore they also knew that they would not die.
5. One post offered that a particular treaty obviated these techniques. I showed that the treaty only applied to particular countries.
6. And, my main point, that every one of the enhanced techniques mirrors, to a greater or lesser degree, contain some of the 'thousand natural shocks this flesh is heir to' in daily lives.
Now, notice. Folks offer opinion, and defend them. They debate points with evidence. But none of the others, as strongly as they felt, chose the dubious method of 'neg rep'ing. But you.

Here is your punishment. You make an emotional argument? Well, here is my emotional argument. If you have the courage, watch the children of Beslan, and tell my how it compares to the limp, insipid, 'enhanced interrogation techniques.'

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OtUu4mIGxOE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OtUu4mIGxOE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

 

[Old Rocks]

Seeing as how we have people here that delight in torture, I believe that all information concerning what was done in the name of our nation should be published. It will be costly, but not as costly as becoming a nation of torturers. For if these actions are let go, they will become the norm.

Personally, I would like to see all involved standing in the dock in the Hague. What makes our people that torture any differant than the Germans and Japanese we hung for those kinds of actions.

 

[Nik]

Now, now, girly-man, watch your language, after all you're not talking to your mom.

So you contend that the interrogation techniques listed in my college-prank post caused the deaths that you note?

Have someone more literate read the report that you link to you, since your hate of America is clouding what abiltiy at comprehension you might have, in a calmer state.

"Indeed, a report into detainee abuse completed in 2004 by Vice Admiral Albert T. Church, the former Naval inspector general, who conducted an investigation into detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan at the request of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, specifically cleared Pentagon officials stating they “did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

A declassified version of the 360-page Church report, delivered to Congress in March 2004, said there was "no policy that condoned or authorized either abuse or torture," which critics of the Bush administration believed was a cover-up."
Senate Panel's Report Links Detainees' Murders to Bush's Torture Policy


The operative phrase: "did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

Further, it is telling that 'news' of the deaths of prisoners resulting from the listed techniques appears in this 'pubreport,' or 'impeachbush,' or 'islamicblog,' but not splashed on the front pages of the oh so 'conservative' NYTimes, or the LATimes, or the Washington Post, or the Boston Globe, or even the WSJournal.

Does this not seem odd to you, Nikki, or have you not looked under each and every rock, yet?

I bet the girl scouts could come up with some more serious techniques, but then you'd claim that they were Bush-robot-fascists.

Nicht wahr?

Nice job at missing the other reports where it traced it back and found a direct link. The Army Committee report found a direct link between the interrogation techniques and their deaths. By the way, if it all hadn't been covered up, it would have been a lot easier to find records of the connections.

As for why other publications didn't cover news of Dilawars death...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html

'Taxi to the Dark Side' - Los Angeles Times

Down a Dark Road - washingtonpost.com

Oh hey, they did. It was also made into a pretty major documentary. Funny you never heard of it, you been living under a rock somewhere?

You have, accidently I hope, conflated two different aspects of the discussion. One is the unforgivable deaths of two individuals who were abused and mistreated and died as a result. The abuses were caused by untrained psycopaths, who were brought up on charges for their offenses.

"Like a narrative counterpart to the digital images from Abu Ghraib, the Bagram file depicts young, poorly trained soldiers in repeated incidents of abuse. The harsh treatment, which has resulted in criminal charges against seven soldiers, went well beyond the two deaths. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?_r=1

The second, and not connected to the first, is my post which is with respect to the specific enhanced interrogation techniques, carried out by trained interrogators, under the auspices of medical doctors.

Surely you see your error, and I hope I have clarified for you.

Really? It was unforgivable, etc, etc? Then care to explain how only ONE individual was convicted, and the one who was convicted was only given a 2 month sentence? By the way, can you please tell me what exactly they did to Dilawar that is distinguished from acts of "enhanced interrogation" done to other detainees?

 

[Nik]

Now, now, girly-man, watch your language, after all you're not talking to your mom.

So you contend that the interrogation techniques listed in my college-prank post caused the deaths that you note?

Have someone more literate read the report that you link to you, since your hate of America is clouding what abiltiy at comprehension you might have, in a calmer state.

"Indeed, a report into detainee abuse completed in 2004 by Vice Admiral Albert T. Church, the former Naval inspector general, who conducted an investigation into detainee abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan at the request of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, specifically cleared Pentagon officials stating they “did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

A declassified version of the 360-page Church report, delivered to Congress in March 2004, said there was "no policy that condoned or authorized either abuse or torture," which critics of the Bush administration believed was a cover-up."
Senate Panel's Report Links Detainees' Murders to Bush's Torture Policy


The operative phrase: "did not promulgate interrogation policies . . . that directed, sanctioned or encouraged the torture or abuse of detainees."

Further, it is telling that 'news' of the deaths of prisoners resulting from the listed techniques appears in this 'pubreport,' or 'impeachbush,' or 'islamicblog,' but not splashed on the front pages of the oh so 'conservative' NYTimes, or the LATimes, or the Washington Post, or the Boston Globe, or even the WSJournal.

Does this not seem odd to you, Nikki, or have you not looked under each and every rock, yet?

I bet the girl scouts could come up with some more serious techniques, but then you'd claim that they were Bush-robot-fascists.

Nicht wahr?

Rumsfeld and Church. Now there's a combination worthy of oxymoronism.

I can almost guarantee you that if Rummy didn't like the results of the Church investigation, it never would have seen the light of day without heavy redaction.

Bank of America? Citi? Which bank will honor the "almost guarantee"?

And did you make a similar guarantee before the Iraq War along the lines of "if there are no WMD's, they'll plant some"?

Have faith, M & M, have faith.

But if you don't respect the Church report as reported in the NYTimes, do I get to say the same about any report out of, say, a Democrat Administrtion?

Any particular reason you've avoided addressing the Army Committee report which directly says there is a link between "enhanced interrogation techniques" and deaths?

 

[Nik]

You might be too stupid to reform. But I'm not a quitter. You mind taking a head count of how many muslims there are in the world? Now, most of them are not radicalized, but did you happen to notice just how quickly they became radicalized in Iraq, just cuz AQ settled into their area? No probably not, you were too busy shouting invectives at Bush. Grow up dumb shit, this is a big bad world and if you don't want to defend your country adequately, do not be shocked when you find out other people want it worse than you do.

You're problem is you are so fucking complacent you think your world can never change. You think the land of milk and honey is just here at your beck and call and you don't have to lift a finger to help. Your such a pansy ass that you don't even want your morals to get dirty let alone your hands. Fine, then, shut the fuck up, get in the corner and hide your face while the real men do the work. We'll tell you when you can look again.

They got radicalized because we invaded their country. That tends to piss people off, moron.

What a strange idea of a "real man". A mass murdering, torturing, fuckhead.

We all produce a slip of the tongue now and again, but you are abusing the privilege.

Do you actually want to build an argument around the concept that the terrorists were even-temper, moderate students and merchants prior to the Iraq war?

How about you simply retract and start over.

Some of them were, actually. You should try reading some of the literature on AQ. People tend to get pissed off when you invade their country, gee I wonder why.

 

[Nik]

Same with the detainees.. the rules are known

No, actually they aren't. When they placed insects on the detainees, they were told they were poisonous.

Oh, and the fact that a bunch of detainees died. Although I'd be curious if you have some actual evidence that states that the detainees must know they will survive.

Once again, are you prepared to state that " a bunch of detainees died" as a result of the enhanced interrogation techniques listed in the original post.

If not, it's time for you to admit you were wrong. Unless you're a "frightened barbarian."

http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/06221-etn-hrf-dic-rep-web.pdf

For any that you are going to claim that what US soldiers did was unacceptable, they got tried for it, blah, blah, blah, please state, in detail, exactly what was it they did that was so unacceptable.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Seeing as how we have people here that delight in torture, I believe that all information concerning what was done in the name of our nation should be published. It will be costly, but not as costly as becoming a nation of torturers. For if these actions are let go, they will become the norm.

Personally, I would like to see all involved standing in the dock in the Hague. What makes our people that torture any differant than the Germans and Japanese we hung for those kinds of actions.

It has yet to be established that the enhanced interrogaton techniques in the NYTimes article have reached the level of 'torture'.

Your use of the term is tantamount to shouting fire in a crowded theatre. But then, your side will stoop to any tactic it seems.

And rather than another neg rep, see if you can debate like an adult and refute my post.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Rumsfeld and Church. Now there's a combination worthy of oxymoronism.

I can almost guarantee you that if Rummy didn't like the results of the Church investigation, it never would have seen the light of day without heavy redaction.

Bank of America? Citi? Which bank will honor the "almost guarantee"?

And did you make a similar guarantee before the Iraq War along the lines of "if there are no WMD's, they'll plant some"?

Have faith, M & M, have faith.

But if you don't respect the Church report as reported in the NYTimes, do I get to say the same about any report out of, say, a Democrat Administrtion?

Any particular reason you've avoided addressing the Army Committee report which directly says there is a link between "enhanced interrogation techniques" and deaths?

Sure, if you choose the one report, why can't I choose the other, after all you provided both.

And since you have not shown any deaths associated with the techniques listed in the NYTimes article, which is central to this thread, you lose, I win.