Today's American History lesson.

[JoeB131]

That sounds like what a racist White supremacist or Nazi would say. But Abe Lincoln said that in his Senatorial election debate.
Many Blacks consider Lincoln as their White hero. The great emancipator. That's just funny. They don't know the real Lincoln. He was no fan of Blacks.

I suspect his attitude was the same as people of the day... but the fact that he DID emancipate them and end slavery says it all about what a Great American he was.

People can argue about the Civil War. But the truth is...

We all lost when Imperial subjugation (the Union cause) won the War over States Rights (the Confederate cause).

No we didn't. I am PROUD to be an American. I am completely indifferent to being an Illinoisan. Sometimes a little embarrassed by what goes on in Springfield.

JoeB131, Thanks for proving to everyone that some people are clueless about American history.

I've got a degree in history, thanks... unlike you having one from a university that teaches about Talking Snakes in Science Class.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Show me where it says it cause thats not what you guys are saying. You are relying on a third party.
If you need some help in reading, I can attach a link to hooked on phonics for you so we can get to the bottom of this.
I say its not in the COTUS. Show me where it says states dont have the right to secession.

No, the power of the supreme court is laid right out there in the Constitution. Unless you want to rip out the pages of the US Constitution that say the Supreme Court is the final judge in all cases involving the Constitution then the Constitution says that the secession of the 1860's was illegal.

This isn't up for debate. You don't get to grab a marker and cross out all the parts of the US constitution you don't like.

Where are your facts? If this were true, your precious SCROTUS would have been vetoing legislation since 1789 and never would have even had to claim that right in Marbury v Madison.

 

[pinqy]

That sounds like what a racist White supremacist or Nazi would say. But Abe Lincoln said that in his Senatorial election debate.
Many Blacks consider Lincoln as their White hero. The great emancipator. That's just funny. They don't know the real Lincoln. He was no fan of Blacks.

I suspect his attitude was the same as people of the day... but the fact that he DID emancipate them and end slavery says it all about what a Great American he was.
.

He emancipated some. The initial Proclamation was issued in September 1862, but Lincoln did not name the actual places it would affect until 1 January 1863, where it was specified that the Proclamation only applied to "Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued."

Note that Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware were not covered under the Proclamation, which also exempted all areas under Union Control.

It did serve a purpose, cleared up the legal status in the North of many former slaves, and had a propaganda effect, but Lincoln can hardly be credited with actually freeing any slaves except those in Washington DC (he signed the legislation passed by Congress) in 1862.

 

[Slash]

Where are your facts? If this were true, your precious SCROTUS would have been vetoing legislation since 1789 and never would have even had to claim that right in Marbury v Madison.

Wow you've spent so long avoiding you completely lost it didn't you?

First off, you made the comment that "
Whites in Northern sweatshops suffered as much as Blacks in the South did." not me, so you should be the one providing facts to back up YOUR statement.

And also post 82 was where I provided mine.



So, for the 9th time now. Your facts to back up your post?

 

[Slash]

Note that Tennessee, Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware were not covered under the Proclamation, which also exempted all areas under Union Control.

Yes, contrary to popular belief, Lincoln was not a king. Since he was President, he had NO ability to create an Amendment, the only Constitutional way to free the slaves by the Federal Government. He decided that states in rebellion were not protected by the constitution and therefore felt that gave him the power to avoid amendments and was able to free the slaves in any state in rebellion. It also freed any slaves that the Union had come across as they advanced into the South, removing any murkiness as to their future.

Now after the Civil War, Lincoln knew that his emancipation proclamation wouldn't stand up when they got around to challenging it in court (states no longer in rebellion, his proclamation is no longer constitutional). So he started what many consider to be some of the toughest (or dirtiest) politics to gain the slaves their freedom with the 13th Amendment. While a President has no actual voting influence on any amendment, his influence in getting it passed was so large that to this day he is the only President to have his signature on any Amendment.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Just because you claim you don't understand, that doesn't mean we have to take your word for it. It's easy to figure out that the typo means "empower." Or, if you admit you understand it, you could get kudos from your Aunt Tifa USMB brotherhood by saying, "It empowers an oligarchy of wise stewards; democracy empowers deplorable Little People."

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the othher side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why."

 

[Slash]

Just because you claim you don't understand, that doesn't mean we have to take your word for it. It's easy to figure out that the typo means "empower." Or, if you admit you understand it, you could get kudos from your Aunt Tifa USMB brotherhood by saying, "It empowers an oligarchy of wise stewards; democracy empowers deplorable Little People."

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the othher side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why."

Guessing you weren't defending your position with fact in there were you?

 

[Scamp]

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
...Lincoln's first Inaugural Address.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the other side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why.

 

[Slash]

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
...Lincoln's first Inaugural Address.

Smart thing to say. He was living stuck between slave states. The Secession was ongoing. He could have said the real cause. That would have been nice for you wouldn't it? Granted then he would be waking up the next day in the Confederacy.

Of course we all saw that in his ACTIONS he definitely interfered with the institution of Slavery where it exists.

But I guess we aren't people of action anymore. Just run to your safe space because words are all that matters now huh?

 

[Slash]

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the other side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why.

Not saying it's stupid. Just asking you for proof.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Just because you claim you don't understand, that doesn't mean we have to take your word for it. It's easy to figure out that the typo means "empower." Or, if you admit you understand it, you could get kudos from your Aunt Tifa USMB brotherhood by saying, "It empowers an oligarchy of wise stewards; democracy empowers deplorable Little People."

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the othher side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why."

[/Qoidsood
Guessing you weren't defending your position with fact in there were you?

Not PC factoid, no. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Just because you claim you don't understand, that doesn't mean we have to take your word for it. It's easy to figure out that the typo means "empower." Or, if you admit you understand it, you could get kudos from your Aunt Tifa USMB brotherhood by saying, "It empowers an oligarchy of wise stewards; democracy empowers deplorable Little People."

The designated opposition to your clique is ignorant and hypocritical. But you are trained to only deal with their limited talklng points, because they belong to the same social class that you do. You and they are nothing without your Daddy's Money. You know that; that's why you desperately have to be so overdefensive in your bossiness, conceit and rule-making.

Originality is the only crime punished on the elitist-owned Internet. It is met with, "I never heard of that, even from the othher side. So it must be so stupid that I don't have to say why."

[/Qoidsood
Guessing you weren't defending your position with fact in there were you?

Not PC factoid, no. Thanks for clearing that up.

Not PC factoids, no. Thanks for clearing that up.

To answer your original factoids: Uncooperative Blackss deserved all that. Slavery saved them from savagery.

 

[Slash]

To answer your original factoids: Uncooperative Blackss deserved all that. Slavery saved them from savagery.

There's that white supremacy that you had hiding. Ok, not based on fact, based on your racism. Thanks. Done.

 

[Boss]

Imagine for a moment, if you will--

The EPA issues a statement in conjunction with the White House, announcing their new bold policy to ban the internal combustion engine. Effective Jan. 1, 2018, all cars, trucks, tractors and farm equipment will be rendered obsolete. If your business has invested millions in equipment, we're sorry, that's just going to be the policy and you'll have to live with it. Obviously, you can't sell your assets because they are now worthless.

Of course, the 4th Amendment says government cannot seize your property without due cause. But they aren't technically seizing it, just making it worthless. Still, in the spirit of the constitution, is this policy appropriate? I think many would argue that it's not appropriate and the Federal government has no such authority to take this action.

This is the primary basis on which the Southern states argued. It was legal to own slaves and the court had determined slaves were legitimate property. Modern sensibilities were not the law of the land in 1860. Whether you think slavery was deplorable and reprehensible is irrelevant to the argument because it was a legal and upheld institution which had existed for 89 years. In short, the South had a very valid legal point.

All the secession documents mention slavery because slavery was the key issue but it wasn't the prevailing principle. That's the part modern day people will often fail to understand. The principle was about Federal authority to essentially render your property worthless. Some may be appalled that we're talking about humans being property but that had been established the Federal government's highest court. The CSA did not make those rulings.

Now let's imagine the EPA internal combustion ban was challenged in court and SCOTUS ruled they couldn't do this because it would violate the Constitution. That states were free to decide on their own if they wanted to ban internal combustion engines and Congress could enact legislation to do so or amend the Constitution. And let's assume there are several states where environmentalists had been successful in passing IC-Free laws. Now we have some IC-Free states but internal combustion engines are still legal and still remain property in states where they are allowed. A political leader comes along who is sympathetic to the "IC-Free" movement. His idea is to add a bunch more IC-Free states to the Union, thereby gaining congressional votes to pass nationwide legislation or maybe even a Constitutional amendment.

This is what the South was facing. And it wasn't really about the moral aspects of owning slaves. Only about 2% of the Southern population owned any significant number of slaves. But slavery provided the labor which drove Southern economies.

 

[Scamp]

The South was better at Capitalism. They took existing US law and turned it into a billion dollar per year enterprise. The North having slaves for all those 89 years could not do that.

 

[Slash]

The South was better at Capitalism. They took existing US law and turned it into a billion dollar enterprise. The North having slaves for all those 89 years could not do that.

What do you mean 89 years.
Vermont found time in the first year of the Revolutionary War to ban slavery
Pennsylvania, 1780; Massachusetts and New Hampshire, 1783; Connecticut and Rhode Island, 1784; New York, 1799; and New Jersey, 1804. The Northwest Ordinance banned slavery in the Northwest Territory (what becomes the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin) in 1787.

New York and New Jersey were the only states in the North that didn't ban slavery BEFORE George Washington was president of the US.

And you define the owning of other human beings as a good business move and nothing more? Wow, let the racism flow there big boy...

 

[Boss]

The South was better at Capitalism. They took existing US law and turned it into a billion dollar enterprise. The North having slaves for all those 89 years could not do that.

What do you mean 89 years.
Vermont found time in the first year of the Revolutionary War to ban slavery
Pennsylvania, 1780; Massachusetts and New Hampshire, 1783; Connecticut and Rhode Island, 1784; New York, 1799; and New Jersey, 1804. The Northwest Ordinance banned slavery in the Northwest Territory (what becomes the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin) in 1787.

New York and New Jersey were the only states in the North that didn't ban slavery BEFORE George Washington was president of the US.

And you define the owning of other human beings as a good business move and nothing more? Wow, let the racism flow there big boy...

I would argue that if cotton, tobacco or sugar cane grew in those states, slavery would've never been banned.

 

[Scamp]

The South was better at Capitalism. They took existing US law and turned it into a billion dollar enterprise. The North having slaves for all those 89 years could not do that.

What do you mean 89 years.
Vermont found time in the first year of the Revolutionary War to ban slavery
Pennsylvania, 1780; Massachusetts and New Hampshire, 1783; Connecticut and Rhode Island, 1784; New York, 1799; and New Jersey, 1804. The Northwest Ordinance banned slavery in the Northwest Territory (what becomes the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin) in 1787.

New York and New Jersey were the only states in the North that didn't ban slavery BEFORE George Washington was president of the US.

And you define the owning of other human beings as a good business move and nothing more? Wow, let the racism flow there big boy...

Wrong about New Jersey. They still had slavery all during the Civil War. And when it came time for NJ to vote for ratification of the 13th Amendment...they voted NO.
NJ only had a small number of slaves but they sure as hell did not want to free them. Somewhere along the way they changed the name of their slaves to "servants for life". Made them feel better.

 

[Slash]

I would argue that if cotton, tobacco or sugar cane grew in those states, slavery would've never been banned.

Could argue that. Won't know since it didn't happen in real life.