to reiterate one more time

[Wry Catcher]

So how do we know what Loughner listened to on the radio?

Just asking.

We don't. Know one knows. One person gave an opinion and the entire echo chamber takes this as an immutable truth.
Pointing out this point, obvious as it is, results in ad hominem attacks and a pile of posts offering nothing in the way of evidence.

 

[Trajan]

lets recap shall we? IF certain influential 'journalists' and op-eds had not posited the completely fly by your pants baseless assumption(s) that jared was somehow influenced by certain people, sects, grp.(s) imagery etc. __________ we would not be having this conversation....the door is open the horse has disappeared.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There have been interviews with acquaintances all week saying he did not do radio or TV.

Heresay.

YOu have to check with the legal ealges on what you think this means.

Basically, Here say is any "out of court statement used to prove an in court assertion."

This does not mean that things you say out of court can't be brought into court. which is why the fifth amendment is there and why the miranda warning is read.

Now in the court of public opinion, the fact brought out by acquaintances are not heresay. They are assertions of facts that they know from observation.

My assertion that they said this is heresay, but not what they said. People who know him have been pretty clear he wasn't really that involved in the political process.

And there are lots of exemptions to the heresay rule. Things like public records, court judgements, written contracts etc.

It is spelled hearsay. If you want a legal definition go here: Hearsay Defined & Explained

In this matter before the court of public opinion the legal definition is not relevent. What is relevent is the author of the statement offers an opinion which cannot be verified by evidence. How does this friend know what influenced the shooter?

 

[Meister]

Heresay.

YOu have to check with the legal ealges on what you think this means.

Basically, Here say is any "out of court statement used to prove an in court assertion."

This does not mean that things you say out of court can't be brought into court. which is why the fifth amendment is there and why the miranda warning is read.

Now in the court of public opinion, the fact brought out by acquaintances are not heresay. They are assertions of facts that they know from observation.

My assertion that they said this is heresay, but not what they said. People who know him have been pretty clear he wasn't really that involved in the political process.

And there are lots of exemptions to the heresay rule. Things like public records, court judgements, written contracts etc.

It is spelled hearsay. If you want a legal definition go here: Hearsay Defined & Explained

In this matter before the court of public opinion the legal definition is not relevent. What is relevent is the author of the statement offers an opinion which cannot be verified by evidence. How does this friend know what influenced the shooter?

This is kind of like what the extreme left on this board is doing, no?

 

[Wry Catcher]

YOu have to check with the legal ealges on what you think this means.

Basically, Here say is any "out of court statement used to prove an in court assertion."

This does not mean that things you say out of court can't be brought into court. which is why the fifth amendment is there and why the miranda warning is read.

Now in the court of public opinion, the fact brought out by acquaintances are not heresay. They are assertions of facts that they know from observation.

My assertion that they said this is heresay, but not what they said. People who know him have been pretty clear he wasn't really that involved in the political process.

And there are lots of exemptions to the heresay rule. Things like public records, court judgements, written contracts etc.

It is spelled hearsay. If you want a legal definition go here: Hearsay Defined & Explained

In this matter before the court of public opinion the legal definition is not relevent. What is relevent is the author of the statement offers an opinion which cannot be verified by evidence. How does this friend know what influenced the shooter?

This is kind of like what the extreme left on this board is doing, no?

What is the extreme left doing?

 

[Meister]

It is spelled hearsay. If you want a legal definition go here: Hearsay Defined & Explained

In this matter before the court of public opinion the legal definition is not relevent. What is relevent is the author of the statement offers an opinion which cannot be verified by evidence. How does this friend know what influenced the shooter?

This is kind of like what the extreme left on this board is doing, no?

What is the extreme left doing?

I don't know if your serious are just playing stupid.
The extreme left laying blame that cannot be verified by the evidence, and knowing what influenced the shooter.

 

[midcan5]

Another apology for evil, the right has presented many, but none wipe away the tragic actions that the atmosphere of hatred of government caused in Arizona. Arizona itself is simply one part of the constant rhetoric that demonizes the other, to excuse this as the right does is to believe ideas grow out of nowhere, it is nothing more than a naive and childish excuse making. It refuses to accept responsibility for words that for two years have created the scene Keen describes so well.

"Start with an empty canvas
Sketch in broad outline the forms of
men, women, and children.

Dip into the unconsciousness well of your own
disowned darkness
with a wide brush and
stain the strangers with the sinister hue
of the shadow.

Trace onto the face of the enemy the greed,
hatred, carelessness you dare not claim as
your own.

Obscure the sweet individuality of each face.

Erase all hints of the myriad loves, hopes,
fears that play through the kaleidoscope of
every infinite heart.

Twist the smile until it forms the downward
arc of cruelty.

Strip flesh from bone until only the
abstract skeleton of death remains.

Exaggerate each feature until man is
metamorphasized into beast, vermin, insect.

Fill in the background with malignant
figures from ancient nightmares – devils,
demons, myrmidons of evil.

When your icon of the enemy is complete
you will be able to kill without guilt,
slaughter without shame.

The thing you destroy will have become
merely an enemy of God, an impediment
to the sacred dialectic of history."

Sam Keen


"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen

 

[boedicca]

So no one blamed them. Got it. Just another thread using victims as tools.

Raving Dishonesty cannot post at all without relying on her massive supply of lies.

Yes, shithead. Krugman blamed right-wing discourse. That stupid joke of a Sheriff did, too. Now, we even see one of the victims trying that baseless ploy. And a great deal of the scumbag liberal propaganda ministry main stream media couldn't contain themselves from dutifully reporting the baseless speculation as though it somehow constituted actual "news."

If you were bound by honesty, you filthy rag, you'd never post again.

Please provide the exact quotes of what those two people said...I haven't seen anyone blame Rush, et al for the murders.

Fish in barrel. Here's Krugman:

Where’s that toxic rhetoric coming from? Let’s not make a false pretense of balance: it’s coming, overwhelmingly, from the right. It’s hard to imagine a Democratic member of Congress urging constituents to be “armed and dangerous” without being ostracized; but Representative Michele Bachmann, who did just that, is a rising star in the G.O.P.

And there’s a huge contrast in the media. Listen to Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann, and you’ll hear a lot of caustic remarks and mockery aimed at Republicans. But you won’t hear jokes about shooting government officials or beheading a journalist at The Washington Post. Listen to Glenn Beck or Bill O’Reilly, and you will.

Of course, the likes of Mr. Beck and Mr. O’Reilly are responding to popular demand. Citizens of other democracies may marvel at the American psyche, at the way efforts by mildly liberal presidents to expand health coverage are met with cries of tyranny and talk of armed resistance. Still, that’s what happens whenever a Democrat occupies the White House, and there’s a market for anyone willing to stoke that anger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well, the wingnuts denied THIS guy from 2008 was influenced by the rightwing media too, so denial is pretty much reflexive with these people:

Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list


Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list Knoxville News Sentinel

Bet a few of you forgot about that one, didn't you???

so now we should stop printing conservative books? Really. Communism is on the rise in America..

What a lopsided link. He only had 3 books in his house?

Good lord get the fuck over yourself

You boy that just killed some of your own read books from your side of the ilse

You man enough to admit that your books drove him to kill?

So your position is, even if Loughner DID listen to rightwing propaganda, even if he DID read rightwing propaganda, it could not be considered an influence on his behaviour?

Is that your position?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Well, the wingnuts denied THIS guy from 2008 was influenced by the rightwing media too, so denial is pretty much reflexive with these people:

Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list


Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list Knoxville News Sentinel

Bet a few of you forgot about that one, didn't you???

so now we should stop printing conservative books? Really. Communism is on the rise in America..

The point of this thread, you bloated sperm receptacle, is that Loughner ALLEGEDLY didn't listen to Rush or any of the rightwing nuts? That is the defense.

But what about the ones that DID?

 

[Trajan]

Another apology for evil, the right has presented many, but none wipe away the tragic actions that the atmosphere of hatred of government caused in Arizona. Arizona itself is simply one part of the constant rhetoric that demonizes the other, to excuse this as the right does is to believe ideas grow out of nowhere, it is nothing more than a naive and childish excuse making. It refuses to accept responsibility for words that for two years have created the scene Keen describes so well.

"Start with an empty canvas
Sketch in broad outline the forms of
men, women, and children.

Dip into the unconsciousness well of your own
disowned darkness
with a wide brush and
stain the strangers with the sinister hue
of the shadow.

Trace onto the face of the enemy the greed,
hatred, carelessness you dare not claim as
your own.

Obscure the sweet individuality of each face.

Erase all hints of the myriad loves, hopes,
fears that play through the kaleidoscope of
every infinite heart.

Twist the smile until it forms the downward
arc of cruelty.

Strip flesh from bone until only the
abstract skeleton of death remains.

Exaggerate each feature until man is
metamorphasized into beast, vermin, insect.

Fill in the background with malignant
figures from ancient nightmares – devils,
demons, myrmidons of evil.

When your icon of the enemy is complete
you will be able to kill without guilt,
slaughter without shame.

The thing you destroy will have become
merely an enemy of God, an impediment
to the sacred dialectic of history."

Sam Keen


"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen

poems don't make you right. you are working hard to remain ignorant. apparently you are an uber partisan who doesn't care what the truth may or may not be, or you jumped in without research....

 

[NYcarbineer]

OK,

Sarah Palin said the media CAN incite violence with what it puts out. Are all you rightwing Rush etc. defenders in agreement that she is full of shit on that??

Any of you have the guts to answer?

 

[Trajan]

Well, the wingnuts denied THIS guy from 2008 was influenced by the rightwing media too, so denial is pretty much reflexive with these people:

Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list


Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list Knoxville News Sentinel

Bet a few of you forgot about that one, didn't you???

so now we should stop printing conservative books? Really. Communism is on the rise in America..

The point of this thread, you bloated sperm receptacle, is that Loughner ALLEGEDLY didn't listen to Rush or any of the rightwing nuts? That is the defense.

But what about the ones that DID?

why the big reach? does /did jared have an affinity for 'right wing' causes? and of course, lets say they DID prove a link, NO ONE knew that last week, did they?

here .....

n October 1959, just before turning 20, Oswald traveled to the Soviet Union, the trip planned well in advance. Along with his self-taught Russian, he had saved $1,500 of his Marine Corps salary,[n 3] got a hardship discharge (claiming his mother needed care)[11][27] obtained a passport, and submitted several fictional applications to foreign universities in order to obtain a student visa.[clarification needed]


annnd

A possible motive cited for his actions is the Middle East conflict.[11] After his arrest, Sirhan said, "I can explain it. I did it for my country."[11] According to Mel Ayton, Sirhan believed he was deliberately betrayed by Kennedy's support for Israel in the June 1967 Six-Day War,[18] which had begun exactly one year to the day before the assassination. During a search of Sirhan's apartment after his arrest, a spiral-bound notebook was found containing a diary entry which demonstrated that his anger had gradually fixated on Robert Kennedy, who had promised to send 50 fighter jets to Israel if he were elected president


so where are we now?

 

[NYcarbineer]

so now we should stop printing conservative books? Really. Communism is on the rise in America..

The point of this thread, you bloated sperm receptacle, is that Loughner ALLEGEDLY didn't listen to Rush or any of the rightwing nuts? That is the defense.

But what about the ones that DID?

why the big reach? does did jared have an affinity for 'right wing' causes? and of course, lets say they DID prove a link, NO ONE knew that last week, did they?

here .....

n October 1959, just before turning 20, Oswald traveled to the Soviet Union, the trip planned well in advance. Along with his self-taught Russian, he had saved $1,500 of his Marine Corps salary,[n 3] got a hardship discharge (claiming his mother needed care)[11][27] obtained a passport, and submitted several fictional applications to foreign universities in order to obtain a student visa.[clarification needed]


annnd

A possible motive cited for his actions is the Middle East conflict.[11] After his arrest, Sirhan said, "I can explain it. I did it for my country."[11] According to Mel Ayton, Sirhan believed he was deliberately betrayed by Kennedy's support for Israel in the June 1967 Six-Day War,[18] which had begun exactly one year to the day before the assassination. During a search of Sirhan's apartment after his arrest, a spiral-bound notebook was found containing a diary entry which demonstrated that his anger had gradually fixated on Robert Kennedy, who had promised to send 50 fighter jets to Israel if he were elected president


so where are we now?

So you've given examples of what should be common knowledge, i.e., that people commit assassinations for REASONS, often political reasons. People go on shooting sprees for reasons. People acquire reasons from their influences.

But apparently, the 800 lb. gorilla of an exception to that must be that it is categorically impossible for anyone to be influenced by the rightwing media to commit any unlawful act.

 

[Meister]

Reality is that there is no evidence as to why this guy went off on the shooting spree as of yet.
There is a lot of finger pointing as to why...with no evidence.

 

[Trajan]

So you've given examples of what should be common knowledge, i.e., that people commit assassinations for REASONS, often political reasons. People go on shooting sprees for reasons. People acquire reasons from their influences.

But apparently, the 800 lb. gorilla of an exception to that must be that it is categorically impossible for anyone to be influenced by the rightwing media to commit any unlawful act.

why are you trying to build a strawman? who said its impossible?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Reality is that there is no evidence as to why this guy went off on the shooting spree as of yet.
There is a lot of finger pointing as to why...with no evidence.

Exactly, and what I've said all along. LIEability suggests I'm a liar and worse because I posted the exact same idea as you Meister (strange, huh) with a caution. The caution being we don't know if he was influenced by the language used by Gov. Palin and Rep. Bachmann and candidate Angle. The point being we don't know.
LIEability states he knows and offers no evidence but for one person who attended college with the shooter. A friend or an aquaintance is not likely to know everything about a person, especially a person a bit odd.

 

[Liability]

Reality is that there is no evidence as to why this guy went off on the shooting spree as of yet.
There is a lot of finger pointing as to why...with no evidence.

Exactly, and what I've said all along. LIEability suggests I'm a liar and worse because I posted the exact same idea as you Meister (strange, huh) with a caution. The caution being we don't know if he was influenced by the language used by Gov. Palin and Rep. Bachmann and candidate Angle. The point being we don't know.
LIEability states he knows and offers no evidence but for one person who attended college with the shooter. A friend or an aquaintance is not likely to know everything about a person, especially a person a bit odd.

No, liar. You lie. That's why I called you a liar.

What I have maintained is that YOU don't know what motivated the shooter. Neither do I. The difference is, I don't pretend to know.

You attempt to switch the burden of proof because in addition to being a liar, you are also unequipped to handle the rules of logic.

You also do not post your alleged "thoughts" with any appreciable clarity.

It really isn't my fault that you are a liar, a scumbag inarticulate poseur and a douche.

As one example of you lying, you liar: you just claimed that I EVER said that I know why the murderer did what he did. I never said any such thing. Indeed, I said the opposite. (But, your ignorance notwithstanding, we do have some clues. You are too stupid to even grasp that.)

Why must you always lie, you lowlife scumbag stupid piece of shit?

Respectfully and civilly yours,

you pal,

and your moral and intellectual superior in every conceivable way,

Liability

 

[Ravi]

Raving Dishonesty cannot post at all without relying on her massive supply of lies.

Yes, shithead. Krugman blamed right-wing discourse. That stupid joke of a Sheriff did, too. Now, we even see one of the victims trying that baseless ploy. And a great deal of the scumbag liberal propaganda ministry main stream media couldn't contain themselves from dutifully reporting the baseless speculation as though it somehow constituted actual "news."

If you were bound by honesty, you filthy rag, you'd never post again.

Please provide the exact quotes of what those two people said...I haven't seen anyone blame Rush, et al for the murders.

Fish in barrel. Here's Krugman:

Where’s that toxic rhetoric coming from? Let’s not make a false pretense of balance: it’s coming, overwhelmingly, from the right. It’s hard to imagine a Democratic member of Congress urging constituents to be “armed and dangerous” without being ostracized; but Representative Michele Bachmann, who did just that, is a rising star in the G.O.P.

And there’s a huge contrast in the media. Listen to Rachel Maddow or Keith Olbermann, and you’ll hear a lot of caustic remarks and mockery aimed at Republicans. But you won’t hear jokes about shooting government officials or beheading a journalist at The Washington Post. Listen to Glenn Beck or Bill O’Reilly, and you will.

Of course, the likes of Mr. Beck and Mr. O’Reilly are responding to popular demand. Citizens of other democracies may marvel at the American psyche, at the way efforts by mildly liberal presidents to expand health coverage are met with cries of tyranny and talk of armed resistance. Still, that’s what happens whenever a Democrat occupies the White House, and there’s a market for anyone willing to stoke that anger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

There is nothing in what he said that blames the right for the murders. He is blaming the right for spewing hatred.

And much of what he said is true. That doesn't mean I think anyone but the perp is guilty.

 

[midcan5]

poems don't make you right. you are working hard to remain ignorant. apparently you are an uber partisan who doesn't care what the truth may or may not be, or you jumped in without research....

Does one need to research common sense? But evil is a topic I have researched for maybe forty years and I include below a few books and links for those with an open mind.

An affinity with evil - the pictures reinforce the mood even more than the language in this examination of the sources of evil.

"That is why they equate Sean Hannity with Keith Olbermann. That is why most celebrate an ever loosening of gun control laws; that is why they act as if “entitlement” programs are socialistic; that is why they campaign militantly against financial and corporate regulation in the name of a pure market that has never existed anywhere; that is why they speak in the name of a single, bellicose God for all Americans rather than a society of deep pluralism; that is why they resist unemployment insurance for the lower middle class; and that is why they push the filibuster envelope to the most extreme degree in the history of the country." The Contemporary Condition: The Radical Right, The Extreme Right and The Republican Party


Let's Get This Straight: There Is No Progressive Equivalent to the Right's Violent Rhetoric | Tea Party and the Right | AlterNet


"The main hypothesis concerning group-think is this: The more amiability and esprit de corps among the members of the in-group of policy makers the greater the danger that independent thinking will be replaced by group-think, which is likely to result in irrational and dehumanizing actions directed at out-groups." from 'Sanctions for Evil;' Sanford and Comstock, 1971

Philip Zimbardo shows how people become monsters ... or heroes | Video on TED.com

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Evil-Ordinary-Genocide-Killing/dp/0195189493/ref=pd_cp_b_2]Amazon.com: Becoming Evil: How Ordinary People Commit Genocide and Mass Killing (9780195189490): Books[/ame]