To ration or not

[Coyote]

Coyote, I am all for everyone who wants healthcare to have it. My problem is I'm afraid that the government will eventally squeeze out the private sector through regulations, and mandates leaving no other options. I'm also concerned on the cost for me if I want my own private insurance. I will pay for it, and it's not cheap, but then I will be pay more taxes for the government run insurance...and that's not going to be cheap.

The health insurance industry is huge - huge, powerful, with a lot of money and a lot of political friends and clout. I don't see it going quietly in the night. Every time this issue gets argued - opponents point towards a single-payer system such as Canada or UK. But we are a very different country. I think what is more likely is a model such as Germany's with a mix of private and public plans. The other thing is insurance companies are jumping on board now - so they can help shape the final product. To me that says a single-payer system is highly unlikely. It's also not supported by the majority of congress or the electorate and they can put pressure on their representatives.

I don't know about cost...I'm support making it budget neutral...but it's going to have to come from somewhere and I agree with your concern. I looked into private insurance once when I considered going self-employed. The costs vs.my anticipated income were unreal and no plan would accept my husband's pre-existing conditions. Having no insurance was risky as the cost of prescription drugs would have made us unable make ends meet in any conceivable way. I opted to stay in the job I'm in because the benefits are good. I am very very fortunate. Others aren't and more and more jobs are cutting benefits or offering fewer.

There has to be a way with tax credits for both the insurance companies to supply the insurance to the people who need it, and tax credits for the people who need it. This could be done without the government taking control. I don't think that would be a good thing.

I don't think tax credits alone can do it. Medical costs are high - and hit hardest on the "middle class" or "working poor" - those that don't tend to pay high taxes in the first place, but make too much money to qualify for assistance.

 

[Coyote]

Yes. You may pull your fingers out of your ears and stop humming. You are no longer in danger of hearing any inconvenient facts that might stimulate your brain into actually thinking.

Run along and stop wasting my time.

In other words, you really have nothing of substance add to this debate?

Couldn't you have said so in fewer words instead wasting bandwidth proving the point?

 

[Cecilie1200]

In other words, you really have nothing of substance add to this debate?

Couldn't you have said so in fewer words instead wasting bandwidth proving the point?

What part of "You're finished, move along" had too many syllables for you?

 

[Coyote]

What part of "You're finished, move along" had too many syllables for you?

 

[jeffrockit]

Not that many Canadians come here for medical care. If you have other information, please share it here.

Every system has flaws. Just curious...if the Canadian system is so flawed, why aren't any Canadians looking to create a US style system?

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

 

[jeffrockit]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

You guys have this whole issue all sewn up again with your EGADS-YIKES-GONNA BANKRUPT ME scenarios. It's sickening (pun intended).

What is sickening is the fact that people are putting their blind trust in the government to handle their health. The government, in case no one has noticed, is full of power hungry, ego filled, self serving, incompetent "workers" (on both sides of the aisle). And that's just the good ones. Some are really bad!
Not sure about you, but I don't want them making health decisions for me.

The healthcare system definitely needs an overhaul, just not a government overhaul.

 

[Old Rocks]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

Once one is able to state the problem, it becomes so easy to prove the thesis.

This is not the kind of example of rationing that most are opposed to.
This is:
In the Province of Quebec, patients suffering from serious incontinence - ie, they have to aller aux toilettes jusqu’� 12 fois par nuit (that’s 12 times a night) - have to wait three years for a half-hour operation. That’s 3 years times 365 nights times 12 trips to the bathroom.
The central point about socialized medicine is that restricting access is the only means of controlling costs.
In Canada, Citizens Wait 3 Years For A Half Hour Surgery To Fix Incontinence | KXNet.com North Dakota News

Or this:
A woman of 61 was refused a routine heart operation by a hard-up NHS trust for being too old.
Dorothy Simpson suffers from an irregular heartbeat and is at increased risk of a stroke. But health chiefs refused to allow the procedure which was recommended by her specialist.
The school secretary was stunned by the ruling.
"I can't believe that at 61 I'm too old for this operation
NHS chiefs tell grandmother, 61, she's 'too old' for £5,000 life-saving heart surgery | Mail Online

Or this:
"Nice refuses, on grounds of cost, to recommend some drugs for patients with advanced kidney cancer. The consultants, who include the directors of oncology at Britain’s two biggest cancer hospitals, the Royal Marsden in London and Christie hospital in Manchester, claim there is enough money in the NHS to pay for the drugs. "
Top doctors slam NHS drug rationing

And here in the US, we have 50 million people whose only access to health care is the emergency room. And that number is increasing daily as the economy continues to worsen.

 

[Old Rocks]

Every system has flaws. Just curious...if the Canadian system is so flawed, why aren't any Canadians looking to create a US style system?

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

Crock of shit. No way would Canadians adapt our system. The fact that they are allowing private companies to compete is a good thing. Competition drives quality. So now all we have to do is have Medicare available for all, and we will catch up with the rest of the world. The private companies will have to compete, and may even start offering a better service.

 

[Old Rocks]

What is sickening is the fact that people are putting their blind trust in the government to handle their health. The government, in case no one has noticed, is full of power hungry, ego filled, self serving, incompetent "workers" (on both sides of the aisle). And that's just the good ones. Some are really bad!
Not sure about you, but I don't want them making health decisions for me.

The healthcare system definitely needs an overhaul, just not a government overhaul.

OK, we just let Medicare compete with the private insurance companies.

 

[Coyote]

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

Not exactly. If you do some research - you'll find that while they have complaints about their healthcare those complaints do not go so far as to want to emulate ours.

The top ten countries rated for quality healthcare do not include the U.S.

I think what you are finding is some countries moving towards a mixture of public and private options - which is not what we have now but is what is on the table now. That is not the same as "moving to our form of healthcare".

Do they want our form of healthcare? Apparently there are a lot of myths perpetrated in the very heated debate over health care and comparisons to that in other countries.

For example, Canada: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Would Canadians trade their system? Ice Station Tango: Canadians Wouldn't Trade Their Healthcare System For Ours

 

[Barb]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

My great aunt, in her late 80's, with numerous age-related health issues, was in the hospital. They found cancer, gave her chemo, and it killed her. She was dying anyway, but they had to "treat" her cancer rather than keep her comfortable. We all die. Medicine should avoid prolonging the the process and concentrate on comfort, especially when their cure is more lethal than the disease.

 

[Nik]

What is sickening is the fact that people are putting their blind trust in the government to handle their health. The government, in case no one has noticed, is full of power hungry, ego filled, self serving, incompetent "workers" (on both sides of the aisle). And that's just the good ones. Some are really bad!
Not sure about you, but I don't want them making health decisions for me.

The healthcare system definitely needs an overhaul, just not a government overhaul.

As opposed to the Insurance companies, who are all full of angels.

 

[American Horse]

My great aunt, in her late 80's, with numerous age-related health issues, was in the hospital. They found cancer, gave her chemo, and it killed her. She was dying anyway, but they had to "treat" her cancer rather than keep her comfortable. We all die. Medicine should avoid prolonging the the process and concentrate on comfort, especially when their cure is more lethal than the disease.

Barb, anyone has the right to have chemo or not to have it. Someone, either she or her agent signed off on that. Now in the case of emergency rescuscitation we have a different scenario.

 

[American Horse]

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

Not exactly. If you do some research - you'll find that while they have complaints about their healthcare those complaints do not go so far as to want to emulate ours.

The top ten countries rated for quality healthcare do not include the U.S.

I think what you are finding is some countries moving towards a mixture of public and private options - which is not what we have now but is what is on the table now. That is not the same as "moving to our form of healthcare".

Do they want our form of healthcare? Apparently there are a lot of myths perpetrated in the very heated debate over health care and comparisons to that in other countries.

For example, Canada: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Would Canadians trade their system? Ice Station Tango: Canadians Wouldn't Trade Their Healthcare System For Ours

Coyote or Jeff Rocket (?) One of you has switched the comments made here between PC and Nik with quote tags; Edit someone?

 

[Coyote]

Not exactly. If you do some research - you'll find that while they have complaints about their healthcare those complaints do not go so far as to want to emulate ours.

The top ten countries rated for quality healthcare do not include the U.S.

I think what you are finding is some countries moving towards a mixture of public and private options - which is not what we have now but is what is on the table now. That is not the same as "moving to our form of healthcare".

Do they want our form of healthcare? Apparently there are a lot of myths perpetrated in the very heated debate over health care and comparisons to that in other countries.

For example, Canada: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Would Canadians trade their system? Ice Station Tango: Canadians Wouldn't Trade Their Healthcare System For Ours

Coyote or Jeff Rocket (?) One of you has switched the comments made here between PC and Nik with quote tags; Edit someone?

I think I fixed it on my post

 

[MaggieMae]

Every system has flaws. Just curious...if the Canadian system is so flawed, why aren't any Canadians looking to create a US style system?

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

Canada and the UK will never totally abandon their universal health care system, regardless how many private entities become involved. It would be political suicide. Even uber conservative Margaret Thatcher wouldn't touch that, nor will Canada's new conservative PM, Stephen Harper.

 

[MaggieMae]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

My great aunt, in her late 80's, with numerous age-related health issues, was in the hospital. They found cancer, gave her chemo, and it killed her. She was dying anyway, but they had to "treat" her cancer rather than keep her comfortable. We all die. Medicine should avoid prolonging the the process and concentrate on comfort, especially when their cure is more lethal than the disease.

The same thing happened to my mother, who had bone cancer, the most painful of all cancers. The docs and hospitals continued to keep her sick with the chemo even knowing that once cancer reaches bone marrow, it is deadly and no amount of drugs will help. She was in such excruciating pain (only allowed those "measured doses" of morphine, presumably so she wouldn't get hooked--- ), that my father finally grabbed her doctor by the throat one morning and screamed, in a hallway full of people, that if he didn't give my mother enough morphine to put her in a coma and free from pain, he would kill him. She died a week later. The doctor lived. True story.

 

[MaggieMae]

My great aunt, in her late 80's, with numerous age-related health issues, was in the hospital. They found cancer, gave her chemo, and it killed her. She was dying anyway, but they had to "treat" her cancer rather than keep her comfortable. We all die. Medicine should avoid prolonging the the process and concentrate on comfort, especially when their cure is more lethal than the disease.

Barb, anyone has the right to have chemo or not to have it. Someone, either she or her agent signed off on that. Now in the case of emergency rescuscitation we have a different scenario.

That isn't the way it used to be, even a decade ago. Doctors were all gung-ho to try all sorts of chemo cocktails to "first do no harm." And the patients and the patient's families trusted THEIR advice.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If you do some research you will find that private healthcare providers are on the rise in Canada and the UK.
CBC News In Depth: Health care

A new role for overseas and independent healthcare providers in England : Department of Health - Publications

So while we are chasing their system, they are moving to our form of healthcare.

Not exactly. If you do some research - you'll find that while they have complaints about their healthcare those complaints do not go so far as to want to emulate ours.

The top ten countries rated for quality healthcare do not include the U.S.

I think what you are finding is some countries moving towards a mixture of public and private options - which is not what we have now but is what is on the table now. That is not the same as "moving to our form of healthcare".

Do they want our form of healthcare? Apparently there are a lot of myths perpetrated in the very heated debate over health care and comparisons to that in other countries.

For example, Canada: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
Would Canadians trade their system? Ice Station Tango: Canadians Wouldn't Trade Their Healthcare System For Ours

Interesting how you sneeringly suggest "doing some research" and can't even be bothered to research the message board you're posting in, where this same WHO report has been utterly, thoroughly debunked and discredited as any sort of conclusive source.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Shared here is William Falk's experience with his aging father. Falk is Editor-in-Chief of THE WEEK magazine:

When my father went back to the hospital a year ago, he was clearly close to the end: His lungs and liver were barely functioning, his abdomen was filling with fluid, and he could no longer lift himself out of bed.

The hospital's doctors nonetheless treated him aggressively, punching a hole in his chest to insert a drainage tube, which quickly led to uncontrolled bleeding, an infection, and a plunge in blood pressure.

Within 12 hours, my father was in a coma, with no chance of recovery, sustained only by a ventilator and a tangle of multiple IV drips. He spent four days in the ICU, until I overcame the resistance of two doctors and had the machines turned off, as per my dad's living will.

Medicare paid upward of $20,000 for these last days of my father's life, during which he received little comfort, moments of agonizing pain and fear, and all the medical care in the world, and then some.

In the historic debate over health care reform now beginning in this country, we will hear much talk of "rationing." If health care is rationed, we'll be told, we may be denied drugs or surgeries or treatments based on cost, effectiveness, or the patient's condition of age. It sounds cold and heartless, except when you consider that the only real alternative to rationing is unlimited medical treatment--including a refusal to "lose" the battle with death even when death is near. Unlimited care, of course, requires unlimited spending, which is not viable.

Rationing in some form is inevitable; the only question is when we'll finally be able to admit to ourselves that even in America, there are limits to everything.

My great aunt, in her late 80's, with numerous age-related health issues, was in the hospital. They found cancer, gave her chemo, and it killed her. She was dying anyway, but they had to "treat" her cancer rather than keep her comfortable. We all die. Medicine should avoid prolonging the the process and concentrate on comfort, especially when their cure is more lethal than the disease.

The same thing happened to my mother, who had bone cancer, the most painful of all cancers. The docs and hospitals continued to keep her sick with the chemo even knowing that once cancer reaches bone marrow, it is deadly and no amount of drugs will help. She was in such excruciating pain (only allowed those "measured doses" of morphine, presumably so she wouldn't get hooked--- ), that my father finally grabbed her doctor by the throat one morning and screamed, in a hallway full of people, that if he didn't give my mother enough morphine to put her in a coma and free from pain, he would kill him. She died a week later. The doctor lived. True story.

What'd your mother, who was actually accepting and allowing the treatments, have to say about it? You know, before your father demanded that they kill her.

NO Family members, and saying that the father demanded they "kill her."