This is how socialism always ends...repression, violence, death, starvation, riots

[EverCurious]

And how do you figure that. What about non-privatized property (be that business, energy, farm, or home) and equal distribution of assets creates "freedom"?

 

[Tehon]

And how do you figure that. What about non-privatized property (be that business, energy, farm, or home) and equal distribution of assets creates "freedom"?

Who said anything about equal distribution of assets? Not Marx.

If you don't know what Marx said we will get nowhere.

 

[EverCurious]

Marx. He argued that the workers were to own the means of production and thus the product they produced - you cannot have an individual own the property, that would be a capitalist class system. Therefore the property would have to be owned collectively. ( As I recall he picked this up from New Harmony's failure though I may be wrong on that detail - New Harmony, Indiana - Wikipedia )

The entire theory rests on equal distribution of the combined labor "value" of the workers input - to example they make iphones and sell them. Not only does the "profit" from the sale of the phones get redistributed to the workers to pay for the hours they put in. Essentially Marx also argues that "profit" shouldn't be made at all, instead the worker should work less hours to produce the "lifestyle" they want to have and go no further - which will invariably hit that individuality of exceptionalism, but we can skip the implications for now.

So where am I wrong? There is no private property because to have such would instill a class system of haves and have-nots, owners and workers, owners according ot Marx would exploit the workers - which was the entire "horrible thing" his theory attempted to escape as he believed it lead to the downfall of the society/civilizations.

 

[Tehon]

So where am I wrong?

He didn't call for the abolition of private property in general. Only bourgeois property, ie property associated with the means of production or property used for economic rents.

Capitalists do exploit workers. The basis of the capitalist mode of production is that the worker "agrees" to work for a wage. But that wage is less than the value the worker produces. Eliminate the capitalist and distribute the surplus value more evenly among those who produced the commodity. Let the producers of the commodity decide how the surplus value is allocated.

 

[Tehon]

Socialism (Marxism) will bring true liberty to the masses.

Could you provide an example of this happening somewhere else?.

I cannot. It hasn't yet happened.

I appreciate the candor. What would it look like here, and what makes you confident it would bring true liberty to the masses, when it hasn't yet?
.

We would still have a market for trading commodities.
We wouldn't have a group of people with the means to steal our democracy.
We could have smaller government.
Less crime.
We would still have our jobs that went to low wage countries due to democracy in the workplace..

= more freedom

Study Marx and decide for yourself.

 

[EverCurious]

No you would have a /temporary/ market for traded commodities - give it a few years and the lack of innovation inherent in your system and you'll be living in the technological third world. Ya know, those fly-over states yea?

No you would have a bunch of forced drones who become increasingly unhappy with the frugality of mere "existence" and desire /more/ of the lifestyle and technology that capitalists have.

Sure, no government, anarchy right? Guarantee you someone decides they are superior and tries to take over - these folks usually succeed because they can play the same song and dance the folks who convinced you you wanted to be a Marxist did. Then you'll have some form of dictatorship - like has happened 99.9% of the time in socialism.

Only way you can reduce crime is through a small population. I suppose you could also say that the folks trying to escape your forced labor camps are not "criminal" per say...

Yeah, because the Mexican's would go eewwww those poor bastards have zero opportunity. Oh wait, no, they'd come for the same reason they do now - to use our "free" health care. Although that'd be really interesting to see what a bunch of immigrants would do to your perfect little society. I bet you'd end up with a slave-esk system because folks from other countries are way more industrious than Americans, you'd have /them/ doing all the work while the American's slacked off - and then America could have a second civil war over slavery heh

 

[sealybobo]

Of course the rogue media branch of government isn't going to devote much ink to it, because they are the defenders and promoters of not only socialism, but marxism as well.

The family demanded a proof of life video, after the Venzuelan opposition leader, Leopoldo Lopez, was severely beaten for refusing to issue a statement begging protesters to stop protesting. In case you live under a rock, Venezuela has been destroyed by socialism and now the people are protesting and starving in the streets, following government seizure of resources and food.

The proof of life video does not show Lopez. It shows a really muscular young dude. Lopez was beaten severely after he refused to speak, and was suffering abdominal injuries.

Venezuela opposition leader Lopez in 'proof of life' video - BBC News

Venezuelan opposition leader “disappears” in government prison - Hot Air

Are you kidding? This is what happens when the rich take over our government.

This doesn't surprise me that the Republicans do wrong and you spin it to blame anyone but your rulers.

What is social security? Is it socialism? Don't you want yours? You paid into it

 

[Tehon]

No you would have a /temporary/ market for traded commodities - give it a few years and the lack of innovation inherent in your system and you'll be living in the technological third world. Ya know, those fly-over states yea?

No you would have a bunch of forced drones who become increasingly unhappy with the frugality of mere "existence" and desire /more/ of the lifestyle and technology that capitalists have.

Sure, no government, anarchy right? Guarantee you someone decides they are superior and tries to take over - these folks usually succeed because they can play the same song and dance the folks who convinced you you wanted to be a Marxist did. Then you'll have some form of dictatorship - like has happened 99.9% of the time in socialism.

Only way you can reduce crime is through a small population. I suppose you could also say that the folks trying to escape your forced labor camps are not "criminal" per say...

Yeah, because the Mexican's would go eewwww those poor bastards have zero opportunity. Oh wait, no, they'd come for the same reason they do now - to use our "free" health care. Although that'd be really interesting to see what a bunch of immigrants would do to your perfect little society. I bet you'd end up with a slave-esk system because folks from other countries are way more industrious than Americans, you'd have /them/ doing all the work while the American's slacked off - and then America could have a second civil war over slavery heh

Mexicans don't come here for health care. They come here because capitalism has destroyed their own way of life in Mexico.

 

[EverCurious]

Bullshit.

 

[Tehon]

No you would have a /temporary/ market for traded commodities - give it a few years and the lack of innovation inherent in your system and you'll be living in the technological third world. Ya know, those fly-over states yea?

No you would have a bunch of forced drones who become increasingly unhappy with the frugality of mere "existence" and desire /more/ of the lifestyle and technology that capitalists have.

Sure, no government, anarchy right? Guarantee you someone decides they are superior and tries to take over - these folks usually succeed because they can play the same song and dance the folks who convinced you you wanted to be a Marxist did. Then you'll have some form of dictatorship - like has happened 99.9% of the time in socialism.

Only way you can reduce crime is through a small population. I suppose you could also say that the folks trying to escape your forced labor camps are not "criminal" per say...

Yeah, because the Mexican's would go eewwww those poor bastards have zero opportunity. Oh wait, no, they'd come for the same reason they do now - to use our "free" health care. Although that'd be really interesting to see what a bunch of immigrants would do to your perfect little society. I bet you'd end up with a slave-esk system because folks from other countries are way more industrious than Americans, you'd have /them/ doing all the work while the American's slacked off - and then America could have a second civil war over slavery heh

Those fly over states were created by free market capitalism.

In a socialist economy the producers of commodities wouldn't have voted to send their jobs overseas.

 

[Tehon]

Bullshit.

NAFTA

 

[EverCurious]

NAFTA is a trade agreement that agrees to lower tariffs between the US, Mexico, and Canada. It doesn't encourage migration.

If you want to pick just one thing that "destroyed Mexican's lives" then you have to with a /human/ - who decided to sell off the nation to the drug lords for money. Not for "capitalism" son, but for human nature, that greed I was talking about earlier. Or you could argue they flee despotism...

 

[Tehon]

NAFTA is a trade agreement that agrees to lower tariffs between the US, Mexico, and Canada. It doesn't encourage migration.

If you want to pick just one thing that "destroyed Mexican's lives" then you have to with a /human/ - who decided to sell off the nation to the drug lords for money. Not for "capitalism" son, but for human nature, that greed I was talking about earlier. Or you could argue they flee despotism...

NAFTA allowed big ag to set up shop in Mexico. That destroyed the rural farming communities in Mexico. People who lose their only means of economic subsistence start looking for options. The promise of work in a country looking for cheap labor, America.

It's what capitalism is. It creates winners and losers. And left unchecked, the losers start to stack up in ever increasing numbers.

Marx knew it and It's plainly evident today.

Capitalists are eager to find a scapegoat. The government, lazy people......drug lords, lol.