Thinking Back To Abraham Lincoln

[Curried Goats]

I did. You are the empty suit, the empty chair, the empty statement.

At least when I call someone a name and level an accusation I have the courage and ability to explain my reasoning. If you want to call me a racist and then run away like a bitch that's on you. But see, that's me being clear on why I think you're a bitch.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

At least when I call someone a name and level an accusation I have the courage and ability to explain my reasoning. If you want to call me a racist and then run away like a bitch that's on you.

I could care less what an empty suit does. I will let you know when you are prepared to listen. And I determine that. Scoot.

Oh, have the last word. You will probably write something that you do not need to meet my standards.

 

[Curried Goats]

I could care less what an empty suit does. I will let you know when you are prepared to listen. And I determine that. Scoot.

Right, you can't explain yourself until I meet some made up criteria by you. Whatever you say, bitch.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Oh, there you go. Have the last word.

 

[Curried Goats]

Oh, there you go. Have the last word.

There you go talking to my back like a bitch.

 

[Libby von H]

That was a common claim by many at the time.
Lincoln quickly abandoned the idea

Actually that was a prudential dodge. Remember, he and Frederick Douglass were friends and FD said

From the Frederick Douglass' Paper, January 22, 1852:

The Colonization Scheme

There is no sentiment more universally entertained, nor more firmly held by the free colored people of the United States, than that this is their own, their native land, and that here (for good or for evil) their destiny is to be wrought out. Identified with the entire history of the American people, going back more than two hundred years, this sentiment is natural and praiseworthy. There is not now, there never has been, and we think there will never be, any general desire on the part of our people, to emigrate from this land to any other and least of all, to the wilds of Africa.
===============


Also note that you assume that L. never had problems with manumission but he knew that some are like Biden and would let the sick,the aged, and those least able to be on their own , to just go

 

[mikegriffith1]

I'm not sure what the time of day has to do with anything. You're a racist if you think people are inferior based on their race. He would be a racist at any time of the day.

So Lincoln was a racist? Period? End of discussion? Wow, okay.

I feel sorry for radicalized, extremist people like you.

 

[Curried Goats]

So Lincoln was a racist? Period? End of discussion? Wow, okay.

I feel sorry for radicalized, extremist people like you.

You're the one who doesn't seem interested in discussion. I'm happy to entertain your arguments that Lincoln wasn't a racist. My argument is that a racist is someone who thinks people are inferior due to their race. I think we both acknowledge Lincoln felt that way about black people so I'm not really sure what your counter argument is going to be but I'm happy to hear it.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

So Lincoln was a racist? Period? End of discussion? Wow, okay.

I feel sorry for radicalized, extremist people like you.

We are all racist or ethnocentric or whatever to a point. None of us are perfect.

The issue, of course, Mike, is where the point starts and ends.

 

[Libby von H]

No. It’s all true. Unfortunately the Lincoln Cult has fucked the minds of too many Americans.

LET"S DEBATE LINCOLN

 

[Libby von H]

You're the one who doesn't seem interested in discussion. I'm happy to entertain your arguments that Lincoln wasn't a racist. My argument is that a racist is someone who thinks people are inferior due to their race. I think we both acknowledge Lincoln felt that way about black people so I'm not really sure what your counter argument is going to be but I'm happy to hear it.

I acknowledge 3 thilngs
YOU want Lincoln to be a racist
YOU go against the view of Frederick Douglass, a real Black
YOU take every strategic move he made to hold off abolitionists as motivated by pro-slavery views.

 

[Libby von H]

Says the guy too pussy to even respond to me directly....

Clean up your mouth, you are a disgrace in adult company.

 

[Libby von H]

That was a common claim by many at the time.
Lincoln quickly abandoned the idea

ABSOLUTELY FALSE>

Jaffa, Guelzo, Burlingame --- all acknowledge that that was a hedge to keep him from being seen as either extreme,either an unthinking politician who would allow manumission that would just dump the poor the old the sick Blacks on the street and an abolitionist who in freeing the slaves was also bringin them directly into a society that neither white nor Black could fully handle at first

YOur problem becomes progressively clearer, no sense of Prudence. Everything is immediate and black and white with you.

 

[mikegriffith1]

You're the one who doesn't seem interested in discussion.

It's just that I fear that you are so radicalized, so extreme, that trying to reason with you is a waste of time.

I'm happy to entertain your arguments that Lincoln wasn't a racist. My argument is that a racist is someone who thinks people are inferior due to their race. I think we both acknowledge Lincoln felt that way about black people so I'm not really sure what your counter argument is going to be but I'm happy to hear it.

My counter argument starts with the first point I made earlier, i.e., that for his day, Lincoln's views on race were moderate if not progressive. It is risky business to judge people who lived in the 1800s by our standards. They grew up and lived in a very different world, and it is unfair and untenable to judge them solely by our standards.

Also, by your narrow definition of the term "racist," even most of the hardcore abolitionists were racists, yet many of them suffered physical and financial persecution for their efforts to end slavery.

Like nearly all other men, I believe that most women are physically inferior to men, i.e., that most women are weaker and slower than most men. Yet, I treat women with great respect; I value their opinions; I am usually more trusting of women than men; and I admire women's innate capacity for sensitivity and tenderness. But by your narrow standard, this makes me a sexist, a chauvinist.

In my opinion, a racist is someone who (1) treats people of another race less fairly and less respectfully than he treats members of his own race, (2) routinely makes disparaging comments about another race and rarely if ever gives that race credit for anything, and (3) avoids associating with that race whenever possible.

When we look at the totality of Lincoln's views and actions regarding race, we see a man who was kindly disposed toward blacks, who condemned the mistreatment of blacks, who argued that blacks deserved to be treated humanely and respectfully, and who took an enormous personal and political risk to begin the process of ending slavery.

 

[Curried Goats]

I acknowledge 3 thilngs
YOU want Lincoln to be a racist
YOU go against the view of Frederick Douglass, a real Black
YOU take every strategic move he made to hold off abolitionists as motivated by pro-slavery views.

Clean up your mouth, you are a disgrace in adult company.

You're the racist who just argued that Black people who disagree with Frederick Douglass aren't real Blacks. At least my insults don't come with any pretense of being anything but.

Also I don't care about Lincoln's moves to hold off abolitionists. I didn't even mention them. I simply referenced his own stated views on the inferiority of black people. Here's what he wrote in a Chicago paper in 1858.

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermingling with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.​

 

[Curried Goats]

It's just that I fear that you are so radicalized, so extreme, that trying to reason with you is a waste of time.

Right..... you can't make rational arguments because of me.... apparently I'm debilitating to your abilities...

We're off to a great start.

My counter argument starts with the first point I made earlier, i.e., that for his day, Lincoln's views on race were moderate if not progressive. It is risky business to judge people who lived in the 1800s by our standards. They grew up and lived in a very different world, and it is unfair and untenable to judge them solely by our standards.

Explain to me what you mean by our standards. Do you mean me and you? What makes you think we share the same standards? Do you mean generally like of the times? To that I'd argue it's nonsensical to think time has standards. Now I know you may be thinking well, thats taking my argument too literally, and my response to that would be that the purpose of that would be to expose this argument as nothing but a metaphor and to ask you to come back with a rational argument instead. Here's what one looks like.

Individuals have standards. I have my own standards and they may be different than yours because standards are subjective. I'm judging Lincoln based on my standards, you can judge him based on your own just at least be honest that that is what you're doing.

Also, by your narrow definition of the term "racist," even most of the hardcore abolitionists were racists, yet many of them suffered physical and financial persecution for their efforts to end slavery.

And? Is racism like a sin you can wash away with tithing or is it simply the belief in the inferiority of a people based on their race?

Like nearly all other men, I believe that most women are physically inferior to men, i.e., that most women are weaker and slower than most men. Yet, I treat women with great respect; I value their opinions; I am usually more trusting of women than men; and I admire women's innate capacity for sensitivity and tenderness. But by your narrow standard, this makes me a sexist, a chauvinist.

Why? Because you imagined that's what my argument would be?

Women are physically weaker on average than men, that's a biological fact. You should still treat them with respect because that has to do with valuing them as an individual rather than as some commodity that may or may not have some use to you.

In my opinion, a racist is someone who (1) treats people of another race less fairly and less respectfully than he treats members of his own race, (2) routinely makes disparaging comments about another race and rarely if ever gives that race credit for anything, and (3) avoids associating with that race whenever possible.

Have you read what Lincoln wrote about Black people? I quoted an article he wrote in 1858 that covers all your points.

When we look at the totality of Lincoln's views and actions regarding race, we see a man who was kindly disposed toward blacks, who condemned the mistreatment of blacks, who argued that blacks deserved to be treated humanely and respectfully, and who took an enormous personal and political risk to begin the process of ending slavery.

You can argue animals should be treated humanely and respectfully without thinking them your equal.

 

[JWBooth]

Here is your hero in his own words.

 

[rightwinger]

Have you read what Lincoln wrote about Black people? I quoted an article he wrote in 1858 that covers all your points.

Lincoln’s power was vested in politics
An 1850s politician was not going anywhere by advocating the equality of blacks, full rights as citizens and marrying white women.
But Lincoln did publicly acknowledge the basic unfairness of Slavery. He stated that a man should keep the fruits of his labor.
For his era, Lincoln was one of the most liberal/moderate towards slavery.
It is why the South quickly seceded

Here is your hero in his own words.
View attachment 926539

More of a condemnation of the South
Lincoln was acknowledging the obvious

The South proved him right for the next 100 years

 

[Curried Goats]

Lincoln’s power was vested in politics
An 1850s politician was not going anywhere by advocating the equality of blacks, full rights as citizens and marrying white women.
But Lincoln did publicly acknowledge the basic unfairness of Slavery. He stated that a man should keep the fruits of his labor.
For his era, Lincoln was one of the most liberal/moderate towards slavery.
It is why the South quickly seceded

More of a condemnation of the South
Lincoln was acknowledging the obvious

The South proved him right for the next 100 years

Stating that slavery isn't fair isn't the same as believing blacks are your equal.

 

[rightwinger]

Stating that slavery isn't fair isn't the same as believing blacks are your equal.

Very, very few Americans believed that blacks were their equal or Native Americans were their equal or women were their equal

Ending slavery was the first step