The Way it Was (Pre-Roe v Wade)

[Underhill]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Some would end up adopted. Most would end up in social services, raised by a single mom.

And we hear people bitching now about these leaches living off the system. Another 40+ million single moms would really do us good!

 

[Katzndogz]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Some would end up adopted. Most would end up in social services, raised by a single mom.

And we hear people bitching now about these leaches living off the system. Another 40+ million single moms would really do us good!

Why are women considered to be such animals? They are bitches in heat who have no choice but to get laid and end up pregnant. What has increased the abortion rate is the pregnancy rate. What has increased the pregnancy rate is the debasement of women to nothing more than cum vessels. What's worse, is that the concept of women as nothing more than convenient depositories start at the earliest age they can be made to understand exactly what they are.

 

[Underhill]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Some would end up adopted. Most would end up in social services, raised by a single mom.

And we hear people bitching now about these leaches living off the system. Another 40+ million single moms would really do us good!

Why are women considered to be such animals? They are bitches in heat who have no choice but to get laid and end up pregnant. What has increased the abortion rate is the pregnancy rate. What has increased the pregnancy rate is the debasement of women to nothing more than cum vessels. What's worse, is that the concept of women as nothing more than convenient depositories start at the earliest age they can be made to understand exactly what they are.

Animals? Debasement?

I think women are much more free and strong now than ever in history. It wasn't that long ago that people were marrying off their daughters at 13-15 yrs old for cash. You may long for that day again, I do not.

I'm working with the world we live in. Not some mystical place that has never existed.

 

[L.K.Eder]

So this is about religion to you then? You don't think anyone brought up in a secular household could think abortion was wrong? I know atheists who agree that murder is wrong. It's about whether or not you think the taking of a human life is murder or not. Some people rationalize that killing a baby in uterus isn't taking or ending a human life. But, that's all it is, rationalization.

And again, I counter that killing your own child is not natural, taking religion out of the equation entirely. It's not natural or instinctual for a mother to kill her child, you aren't 'taught' guilt, people brought up in a secular household are capable of feeling guilt.

Are you reading what I am posting? This has nothing to do with religion. I was simply pointing out my experience with guilt and where I am coming from.

I think it is perhaps you that is not reading what you're posting. There's no debating with someone who won't own a statement they made when it is in plain sight for everyone to read. You completely ignored the points that I made, I think they were more than answerable if you're being honest in a discussion.

i read underhill's post.

you are the one who needs help in understanding english.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't accept the notion that every abortion is a murder or even wrong. So there is not going to be much of a conversation on the subject.

On the other hand, if someone wanted to reasonably discuss what could be done to reduce the number of abortions through preventative actions, I am more than willing.

I would like to see a push for sexually active people to be given the day after pill before having sex, say during a physical ("are you sexually active", if yes then here you go, take this if you think there's any chance of unwanted pregnancy...). That alone could drastically reduce the number of abortions.

It's been 40 years of supposed 'preventive actions', yet here we are at 1.2 million per year. There's no incentive to not get an abortion, the more you dehumanize a baby, the less incentive there is. What incentive is there to use birth control when you can get a cheap abortion at the clinic? It's used as a form of birth control. And if you don't think it's wrong or immoral, why would you care anymore about reducing the number of abortions than you would reducing the number of women on birth control pills? They're the same thing in your mind are they not?

2 reasons.

First cost. No sane person will spend $600 (last I know 10 years ago) for an abortion when they can spend $10 for a pill.

Second, I do see late term abortion as morally dubious. I wouldn't go so far as murder. But it is a life. So I am in favor of anything that would reduce late term abortions.

As for your claim that it's been 40 years.... I would say it's been 40 years, but for most of that, anything that could actually reduce those numbers has been fought tooth and nail. And all too often it was by the same people who claimed abortion is murder.

First it was education. We got that in the 80's (sort of, many states turned that into a abstinence campaign which has proven useless). Then it was contraceptives which are still only available sporadically depending on the politics in your state. And the day after pill is a relatively new development and that too has been fought by the pro life groups (why, I have no idea).

Pre 1970's, there was no public notion that if people did not receive free condoms or other contraceptives, they were being DENIED such protection. The protection was available and all responsible people acquired them and used them to prevent unwanted pregnancy. But maybe there was more of a cultural sense of personal responsibility then?

I don't hear the Left or other 'progressive' programs emphasizing ANY sort of personal responsibility now. You hear that it should be their RIGHT to have contraceptives of the type and quanity they want, and those should be provided to them free of cost. If they don't get the free stuff, then it isn't their fault that they got pregnant with a baby they didn't want. It is the fault of the government. Of the eeeeeevil people who DENIED them contraceptives. And you hear it emphasized that it is their RIGHT to have an abortion and only hateful people would judge them for killing a baby that isn't really a baby. It is just a clump of cells. Up to the minute that it is free of the womb it isn't a person. And they shouldn't think of it as one.

No our modern culture is of the mindset that kids are going to have sex so we better give them free contraceptives to avoid the pregnancies. But why, pre 1970's, when there would have been a huge outcry of protest if the schools were passing out free contraceptives, were there so many fewer teenage pregnancies?

Our modern culture is that people are going to have sex and if we want fewer abortions we need to provide more contraceptives. But why pre 1970's, was there no push to provide contraceptives and there were so many fewer abortions?

What is wrong with cultural pressure to be responsible and mature and take responsibility for your own behavior? What is wrong with cultural pressure that strongly encourages marriage before pregnancy, and again instills the concept that every child deserves and benefits from a mom and dad in the home whenever possible?

I simply don't buy the concept that women today are too stupid or uneducated or incompetent to make smart choices and if society doesn't keep them from getting pregnant, the abortion is our fault.

 

[Newby]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Why do you automatically assign them to that status in life?? Is that why you prefer them all killed? Less for you to have to potentially support? More of the pie available for you to use? Who's the cold hearted one here again?

 

[Foxfyre]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Why do you automatically assign them to that status in life?? Is that why you prefer them all killed? Less for you to have to potentially support? More of the pie available for you to use? Who's the cold hearted one here again?

The fallacy in the argument is that there would have been 54 million unwanted babies on the dole. Or 54 million unwanted babies period. With a return to a concept of personal responsibility and the pre 1970's notion that people were capable of making smart choices, there never would have been 54 million unwanted babies in the first place.

 

[Newby]

You make a point. But I think the day after pill, used as I laid it out, solves much of the problem.

I think young people make poor decisions on the spot, especially in the midst of sexual exploration. But if they were offered something like the day after pill in a routine visit, they could hold onto it and would be willing, probably happy, to use it later.



None of them. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about easy access to contraceptives.

What is the average age of a woman having an abortion? What percentage are teenagers?? Do they even keep those statistics?

What is 'easy access' to you? The corner drugstore isn't good enough?

Depends. For adults, yes the corner drugstore is adequate. For teens, not so much. Personally I think it should be available at the school nurse. Hell, make it mail order. Anything we can do to make it easier...

So to hell with the parents and any authority they should have over their own children? They are still children, and the parents should be notified of anything that is given to their kids from a medical standpoint, or even a standpoint of where their children could be in emotional or psychological danger. You're just willing to get out of the way and let the government raise your daughter? You want some stranger handing her potentially harmful medication for free without your knowledge?

 

[Newby]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Some would end up adopted. Most would end up in social services, raised by a single mom.

And we hear people bitching now about these leaches living off the system. Another 40+ million single moms would really do us good!

Right, so kill the babie instead! What a great solution!

 

[Newby]

It's been 40 years of supposed 'preventive actions', yet here we are at 1.2 million per year. There's no incentive to not get an abortion, the more you dehumanize a baby, the less incentive there is. What incentive is there to use birth control when you can get a cheap abortion at the clinic? It's used as a form of birth control. And if you don't think it's wrong or immoral, why would you care anymore about reducing the number of abortions than you would reducing the number of women on birth control pills? They're the same thing in your mind are they not?

2 reasons.

First cost. No sane person will spend $600 (last I know 10 years ago) for an abortion when they can spend $10 for a pill.

Second, I do see late term abortion as morally dubious. I wouldn't go so far as murder. But it is a life. So I am in favor of anything that would reduce late term abortions.

As for your claim that it's been 40 years.... I would say it's been 40 years, but for most of that, anything that could actually reduce those numbers has been fought tooth and nail. And all too often it was by the same people who claimed abortion is murder.

First it was education. We got that in the 80's (sort of, many states turned that into a abstinence campaign which has proven useless). Then it was contraceptives which are still only available sporadically depending on the politics in your state. And the day after pill is a relatively new development and that too has been fought by the pro life groups (why, I have no idea).

Pre 1970's, there was no public notion that if people did not receive free condoms or other contraceptives, they were being DENIED such protection. The protection was available and all responsible people acquired them and used them to prevent unwanted pregnancy. But maybe there was more of a cultural sense of personal responsibility then?

I don't hear the Left or other 'progressive' programs emphasizing ANY sort of personal responsibility now. You hear that it should be their RIGHT to have contraceptives of the type and quanity they want, and those should be provided to them free of cost. If they don't get the free stuff, then it isn't their fault that they got pregnant with a baby they didn't want. It is the fault of the government. Of the eeeeeevil people who DENIED them contraceptives. And you hear it emphasized that it is their RIGHT to have an abortion and only hateful people would judge them for killing a baby that isn't really a baby. It is just a clump of cells. Up to the minute that it is free of the womb it isn't a person. And they shouldn't think of it as one.

No our modern culture is of the mindset that kids are going to have sex so we better give them free contraceptives to avoid the pregnancies. But why, pre 1970's, when there would have been a huge outcry of protest if the schools were passing out free contraceptives, were there so many fewer teenage pregnancies?

Our modern culture is that people are going to have sex and if we want fewer abortions we need to provide more contraceptives. But why pre 1970's, was there no push to provide contraceptives and there were so many fewer abortions?

What is wrong with cultural pressure to be responsible and mature and take responsibility for your own behavior? What is wrong with cultural pressure that strongly encourages marriage before pregnancy, and again instills the concept that every child deserves and benefits from a mom and dad in the home whenever possible?

I simply don't buy the concept that women today are too stupid or uneducated or incompetent to make smart choices and if society doesn't keep them from getting pregnant, the abortion is our fault.

Great post, Fox. With what I bolded, what is wrong with it is that is doesn't breed government dependancy, it doesn't create a generation of people who need the government to take care of them and therefore, control them. It doesn't fit with the progressive/leftist agenda that is working hard to gain power and control in this country.

 

[Delia]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Some would end up adopted. Most would end up in social services, raised by a single mom.

And we hear people bitching now about these leaches living off the system. Another 40+ million single moms would really do us good!

Why are women considered to be such animals? They are bitches in heat who have no choice but to get laid and end up pregnant. What has increased the abortion rate is the pregnancy rate. What has increased the pregnancy rate is the debasement of women to nothing more than cum vessels. What's worse, is that the concept of women as nothing more than convenient depositories start at the earliest age they can be made to understand exactly what they are.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

Sex is natural. We all enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it, you and your partner need to have a little chat. Attempting to bring sex down into the gutter so that you can blame the woman because she didn't 'just say no' is ludicrous.

 

[Delia]

You know? As big a mess as America is in, I can't help wondering what shape she'd be in with 54 million unwanted babies on the dole.

Why do you automatically assign them to that status in life?? Is that why you prefer them all killed? Less for you to have to potentially support? More of the pie available for you to use? Who's the cold hearted one here again?

The fallacy in the argument is that there would have been 54 million unwanted babies on the dole. Or 54 million unwanted babies period. With a return to a concept of personal responsibility and the pre 1970's notion that people were capable of making smart choices, there never would have been 54 million unwanted babies in the first place.

And again. The point of the article was that people get pregnant and need help. They did before 1973, they will if abortion is re-criminalized. And if abortion is criminalized, and women return to the back alleys, then several things will happen.

Women will die, or be rendered sterile.

Millions of welfare moms will be created.

A black market for abortion will exist.

Probably more. That's just off the top of my head.

It seriously amazes me that nobody will think beyond the tip of their personal belief system.

 

[Delia]

"Until the mid-1800's, abortion was legal in the United States."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKd9zWjxr6k]When Abortion Was Illegal: Untold Stories (1992) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Underhill]

It's been 40 years of supposed 'preventive actions', yet here we are at 1.2 million per year. There's no incentive to not get an abortion, the more you dehumanize a baby, the less incentive there is. What incentive is there to use birth control when you can get a cheap abortion at the clinic? It's used as a form of birth control. And if you don't think it's wrong or immoral, why would you care anymore about reducing the number of abortions than you would reducing the number of women on birth control pills? They're the same thing in your mind are they not?

2 reasons.

First cost. No sane person will spend $600 (last I know 10 years ago) for an abortion when they can spend $10 for a pill.

Second, I do see late term abortion as morally dubious. I wouldn't go so far as murder. But it is a life. So I am in favor of anything that would reduce late term abortions.

As for your claim that it's been 40 years.... I would say it's been 40 years, but for most of that, anything that could actually reduce those numbers has been fought tooth and nail. And all too often it was by the same people who claimed abortion is murder.

First it was education. We got that in the 80's (sort of, many states turned that into a abstinence campaign which has proven useless). Then it was contraceptives which are still only available sporadically depending on the politics in your state. And the day after pill is a relatively new development and that too has been fought by the pro life groups (why, I have no idea).

Pre 1970's, there was no public notion that if people did not receive free condoms or other contraceptives, they were being DENIED such protection. The protection was available and all responsible people acquired them and used them to prevent unwanted pregnancy. But maybe there was more of a cultural sense of personal responsibility then?

I don't hear the Left or other 'progressive' programs emphasizing ANY sort of personal responsibility now. You hear that it should be their RIGHT to have contraceptives of the type and quanity they want, and those should be provided to them free of cost. If they don't get the free stuff, then it isn't their fault that they got pregnant with a baby they didn't want. It is the fault of the government. Of the eeeeeevil people who DENIED them contraceptives. And you hear it emphasized that it is their RIGHT to have an abortion and only hateful people would judge them for killing a baby that isn't really a baby. It is just a clump of cells. Up to the minute that it is free of the womb it isn't a person. And they shouldn't think of it as one.

No our modern culture is of the mindset that kids are going to have sex so we better give them free contraceptives to avoid the pregnancies. But why, pre 1970's, when there would have been a huge outcry of protest if the schools were passing out free contraceptives, were there so many fewer teenage pregnancies?

Our modern culture is that people are going to have sex and if we want fewer abortions we need to provide more contraceptives. But why pre 1970's, was there no push to provide contraceptives and there were so many fewer abortions?

What is wrong with cultural pressure to be responsible and mature and take responsibility for your own behavior? What is wrong with cultural pressure that strongly encourages marriage before pregnancy, and again instills the concept that every child deserves and benefits from a mom and dad in the home whenever possible?

I simply don't buy the concept that women today are too stupid or uneducated or incompetent to make smart choices and if society doesn't keep them from getting pregnant, the abortion is our fault.

Who said that?

All I am saying is that those who truly want to prevent what they have labeled as murder, may want to come up with a way of drastically reducing them since the chance of them becoming illegal is nigh on zero at the moment.

But I'm not terribly worried about it. So if you think it's more important to save a few bucks than prevent "murder" I suppose you have that right.

 

[Underhill]

What is the average age of a woman having an abortion? What percentage are teenagers?? Do they even keep those statistics?

What is 'easy access' to you? The corner drugstore isn't good enough?

Depends. For adults, yes the corner drugstore is adequate. For teens, not so much. Personally I think it should be available at the school nurse. Hell, make it mail order. Anything we can do to make it easier...

So to hell with the parents and any authority they should have over their own children? They are still children, and the parents should be notified of anything that is given to their kids from a medical standpoint, or even a standpoint of where their children could be in emotional or psychological danger. You're just willing to get out of the way and let the government raise your daughter? You want some stranger handing her potentially harmful medication for free without your knowledge?

Yes to hell with parental authority. I realize it isn't a popular thought, but I would rather a teen receive contraceptives if needed than be too afraid to go get them because they are required to tell daddy.

Think about the teens who end up moms at 13-16. I think it's fair to say many, if not most, do not come from the best homes.

Parental authority can be wonderful if you have responsible, reasonable and well educated parents. But way, way ,way too often that is not the case.

 

[Sallow]

The Way It Was | Mother Jones

This is a very hard article to read, and will be for both sides of the discussion. I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself. The first page is quite graphic, giving specifics of abortion. The rest is graphic as to what happens when it's not a legal option.

It's a long article, but I believe it to be worth the time it takes to read it.

I really wouldn't want to see Roe v Wade repealed.

No offense, Delia, but I found the article just another endless excuse for why women should be allowed to murder their unborn children. Especially disgusting is that she's trying to rationalize partial birth abortions, we all know that if they weren't illegal, it wouldn't be '12 year olds raped by their uncle' that would be getting them. Just like it isn't '12 year olds raped by their uncles' that are responsible for the millions of babies killed every year in this country, and the millions of dollars in literal blood money the abortion industry makes off of these 'poor women who are just victims'. Just so tired of hearing it.

Fetuses aren't babies.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Way It Was | Mother Jones

This is a very hard article to read, and will be for both sides of the discussion. I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself. The first page is quite graphic, giving specifics of abortion. The rest is graphic as to what happens when it's not a legal option.

It's a long article, but I believe it to be worth the time it takes to read it.

I really wouldn't want to see Roe v Wade repealed.

No offense, Delia, but I found the article just another endless excuse for why women should be allowed to murder their unborn children. Especially disgusting is that she's trying to rationalize partial birth abortions, we all know that if they weren't illegal, it wouldn't be '12 year olds raped by their uncle' that would be getting them. Just like it isn't '12 year olds raped by their uncles' that are responsible for the millions of babies killed every year in this country, and the millions of dollars in literal blood money the abortion industry makes off of these 'poor women who are just victims'. Just so tired of hearing it.

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

 

[Underhill]

No offense, Delia, but I found the article just another endless excuse for why women should be allowed to murder their unborn children. Especially disgusting is that she's trying to rationalize partial birth abortions, we all know that if they weren't illegal, it wouldn't be '12 year olds raped by their uncle' that would be getting them. Just like it isn't '12 year olds raped by their uncles' that are responsible for the millions of babies killed every year in this country, and the millions of dollars in literal blood money the abortion industry makes off of these 'poor women who are just victims'. Just so tired of hearing it.

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

Yes but pull that fetus out and put it on the table and it is a dead collection of cells.

I'm not a fan of late term abortions for this reason. But I don't think the solution is to make all pregnant women have their babies. Educate them to have the abortions earlier. Or as I suggested, give out the day after pill (which is unequivocally not abortion).

 

[Foxfyre]

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

Yes but pull that fetus out and put it on the table and it is a dead collection of cells.

I'm not a fan of late term abortions for this reason. But I don't think the solution is to make all pregnant women have their babies. Educate them to have the abortions earlier. Or as I suggested, give out the day after pill (which is unequivocally not abortion).

Pull a live full term baby out of the womb and put it on the table and without the nourishment and nurture of another human being, it also soon becomes a dead collection of cells. It is every bit as helpless and dependent as is the fetus. It might live longer and suffer more than it would as a fetus, but make no mistake about it. That collection of cells that makes up the fetus was once every bit as important to a living breathing human being as was being that newborn infant and/or any other stage of human development. There are few creatures on earth as helpless as a human newborn.

So those who think it isn't ending a human life to kill the fetus could realistically extrapolate that to it not ending a human life to kill the newborn. I know very few people who see it that way. But they do allow themselves to be programmed to believe the fetus isn't important or precious.

 

[oldfart]

What state has outlawed contraceptives?

None of them. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about easy access to contraceptives.

Before Griswold v Connecticut in 1965 quite a few states outlawed contraception.