The unsustainability of "green" energy

[Slash]

Besides building the rail systems to remote area's to the cost of what would be hundreds of billions today to provide the infrastructure to make coal/oil usable...

Maybe you've been under a rock, but Trump has been touting how he'd do it with increasing use of public lands for oil/gas (remember those lease rates haven't gone up since 1987, so yes, they are getting a HECK of a deal there).

SInce you seem to be rather uneducated on the subject, I'll give you a few to look at:

Corporate tax exemption for Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs, 3/4 are fossil fuel companies)
Deduction for intangible drilling costs
Lost/reduced royalties from leasing of federal lands for onshore and offshore drilling
Percentage depletion allowance –independent producers can deduct 14-15% of large investment costs from income taxes*
Domestic manufacturing deduction – allows oil producers to claim a tax break intended for U.S. manufacturers to prevent job outsourcing*
Carbon dioxide (CO2) sequestration credit – tax credit of $20 per ton of CO2 sequestered (largely from coal plants); $10 per ton for CO2 used for enhanced oil recovery
Exemption from passive loss limitation – exempts investors from limits on deductions of losses from oil and gas activities in which they are not directly involved
Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)

Over half a trillion has gone into fossil fuels since 1950.

Corporate tax exemption for Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs, 3/4 are fossil fuel companies)

The partners pay the tax.

Deduction for intangible drilling costs

All businesses get to deduct their expenses.

Lost/reduced royalties from leasing of federal lands for onshore and offshore drilling

So raise the royalties, if you feel 12.5% or 18.75% isn't enough.

Percentage depletion allowance

Like depreciation.

Domestic manufacturing deduction – allows oil producers to claim a tax break intended for U.S. manufacturers to prevent job outsourcing*

Not exclusive to fossil fuels.

Carbon dioxide (CO2) sequestration credit – tax credit of $20 per ton of CO2 sequestered (largely from coal plants); $10 per ton for CO2 used for enhanced oil recovery

Eliminate all the "green" subsidy waste of money rules.

Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)

Not exclusive to fossil fuels.

Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)

Eliminate all the "green" subsidy waste of money rules.

Over half a trillion has gone into fossil fuels since 1950

How much was actually a subsidy versus typical business deductions?
Based on your list, very little.

Yup, all things that the oil industry gets specifically because it's in the oil industry.

Kinda funny how you, rather than tally the savings this law or that law has given them and add it up for a total, you try to pass it off as nothing. I'll remember that.

"all business get to deduct their expenses" NO. Only oil companies can deduct all costs associated with searching and drilling for oil.

Percentage depletion allowance is like depreciation, but a LOT higher rate and ONLY for oil/mineral rights.



Like you agree though, renewables is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Besides building the rail systems to remote area's to the cost of what would be hundreds of billions today to provide the infrastructure to make coal/oil usable...

Maybe you've been under a rock, but Trump has been touting how he'd do it with increasing use of public lands for oil/gas (remember those lease rates haven't gone up since 1987, so yes, they are getting a HECK of a deal there).

SInce you seem to be rather uneducated on the subject, I'll give you a few to look at:

Corporate tax exemption for Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs, 3/4 are fossil fuel companies)
Deduction for intangible drilling costs
Lost/reduced royalties from leasing of federal lands for onshore and offshore drilling
Percentage depletion allowance –independent producers can deduct 14-15% of large investment costs from income taxes*
Domestic manufacturing deduction – allows oil producers to claim a tax break intended for U.S. manufacturers to prevent job outsourcing*
Carbon dioxide (CO2) sequestration credit – tax credit of $20 per ton of CO2 sequestered (largely from coal plants); $10 per ton for CO2 used for enhanced oil recovery
Exemption from passive loss limitation – exempts investors from limits on deductions of losses from oil and gas activities in which they are not directly involved
Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)

Over half a trillion has gone into fossil fuels since 1950.

Corporate tax exemption for Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs, 3/4 are fossil fuel companies)

The partners pay the tax.

Deduction for intangible drilling costs

All businesses get to deduct their expenses.

Lost/reduced royalties from leasing of federal lands for onshore and offshore drilling

So raise the royalties, if you feel 12.5% or 18.75% isn't enough.

Percentage depletion allowance

Like depreciation.

Domestic manufacturing deduction – allows oil producers to claim a tax break intended for U.S. manufacturers to prevent job outsourcing*

Not exclusive to fossil fuels.

Carbon dioxide (CO2) sequestration credit – tax credit of $20 per ton of CO2 sequestered (largely from coal plants); $10 per ton for CO2 used for enhanced oil recovery

Eliminate all the "green" subsidy waste of money rules.

Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)

Not exclusive to fossil fuels.

Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)

Eliminate all the "green" subsidy waste of money rules.

Over half a trillion has gone into fossil fuels since 1950

How much was actually a subsidy versus typical business deductions?
Based on your list, very little.

Yup, all things that the oil industry gets specifically because it's in the oil industry.

Kinda funny how you, rather than tally the savings this law or that law has given them and add it up for a total, you try to pass it off as nothing. I'll remember that.

"all business get to deduct their expenses" NO. Only oil companies can deduct all costs associated with searching and drilling for oil.

Percentage depletion allowance is like depreciation, but a LOT higher rate and ONLY for oil/mineral rights.



Like you agree though, renewables is a drop in the bucket.

Yup, all things that the oil industry gets specifically because it's in the oil industry.

I know, writing off business expenses. Outrageous! DERP!

Percentage depletion allowance is like depreciation, but a LOT higher rate

Why do you feel it's a lot higher? Personally, I think deprecation schedules are bullshit.
100% immediate write-offs should be the rule.

Only oil companies can deduct all costs associated with searching and drilling for oil.

Searching and drilling are typical expenses for an oil company.
Why shouldn't a company get to deduct typical business expenses?

renewables is a drop in the bucket

Their contribution to our energy supply is a drop in the bucket.
The government checks they receive are much, much higher than their usefulness.

 

[Slash]

I know, writing off business expenses. Outrageous! DERP!

A BUSINESS writing off the normally paid taxes for conducting business if it wasn't for that tax break


Why do you feel it's a lot higher? Personally, I think deprecation schedules are bullshit.
100% immediate write-offs should be the rule.

That's great you think it should be different. But the fact remains this is the break they get.


Searching and drilling are typical expenses for an oil company.
Why shouldn't a company get to deduct typical business expenses?

Because the government taxes businesses. You didn't even look at this did you? One of the biggest ones and you just play ignorant. Ok. The government taxes businesses on profits. You show your expenses, and your income, and get taxes on the difference if you are in the black. SPECIFIC for oil companies is IDC's. Which say you can write off about 60-80% of the costs of drilling wells.


Their contribution to our energy supply is a drop in the bucket.

Kinda interesting. That "doesn't provide much energy" excuse keeps holding less and less water. Sure 10 years ago when it was 5% or so. Now it's 15% of our electricity supplied by renewables. Just passed nuclear. You kinda sound like the guy claiming that the horse is never going away, cars will never replace it, and listing all the reasons.

 

[bripat9643]

I know, writing off business expenses. Outrageous! DERP!

A BUSINESS writing off the normally paid taxes for conducting business if it wasn't for that tax break


Why do you feel it's a lot higher? Personally, I think deprecation schedules are bullshit.
100% immediate write-offs should be the rule.

That's great you think it should be different. But the fact remains this is the break they get.


Searching and drilling are typical expenses for an oil company.
Why shouldn't a company get to deduct typical business expenses?

Because the government taxes businesses. You didn't even look at this did you? One of the biggest ones and you just play ignorant. Ok. The government taxes businesses on profits. You show your expenses, and your income, and get taxes on the difference if you are in the black. SPECIFIC for oil companies is IDC's. Which say you can write off about 60-80% of the costs of drilling wells.


Their contribution to our energy supply is a drop in the bucket.

Kinda interesting. That "doesn't provide much energy" excuse keeps holding less and less water. Sure 10 years ago when it was 5% or so. Now it's 15% of our electricity supplied by renewables. Just passed nuclear. You kinda sound like the guy claiming that the horse is never going away, cars will never replace it, and listing all the reasons.

You're including hyrdo power, which has always been part of our energy production. Solar and wind are still less than 5%.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I know, writing off business expenses. Outrageous! DERP!

A BUSINESS writing off the normally paid taxes for conducting business if it wasn't for that tax break


Why do you feel it's a lot higher? Personally, I think deprecation schedules are bullshit.
100% immediate write-offs should be the rule.

That's great you think it should be different. But the fact remains this is the break they get.


Searching and drilling are typical expenses for an oil company.
Why shouldn't a company get to deduct typical business expenses?

Because the government taxes businesses. You didn't even look at this did you? One of the biggest ones and you just play ignorant. Ok. The government taxes businesses on profits. You show your expenses, and your income, and get taxes on the difference if you are in the black. SPECIFIC for oil companies is IDC's. Which say you can write off about 60-80% of the costs of drilling wells.


Their contribution to our energy supply is a drop in the bucket.

Kinda interesting. That "doesn't provide much energy" excuse keeps holding less and less water. Sure 10 years ago when it was 5% or so. Now it's 15% of our electricity supplied by renewables. Just passed nuclear. You kinda sound like the guy claiming that the horse is never going away, cars will never replace it, and listing all the reasons.

A BUSINESS writing off the normally paid taxes for conducting business if it wasn't for that tax break

I agree, solar and wind wouldn't sell nearly the equipment they do, without the government writing checks to their customers. And even with that, they aren't very profitable.


That's great you think it should be different. But the fact remains this is the break they get.

Yes, they get to write off the depletion of the mineral they're extracting. Very similar to depreciation.
Let me know when you find proof of your claim that it's a lot higher.

Because the government taxes businesses. You didn't even look at this did you?

Yes, the government taxes business. Business gets to deduct expenses. Exploration is an expense.
Drilling is an expense. Why shouldn't these expenses be deductible, like any other expense?

One of the biggest ones

It's important that businesses can deduct their expenses, especially the big ones.

SPECIFIC for oil companies is IDC's. Which say you can write off about 60-80% of the costs of drilling wells.

Google doesn't drill for oil, they shouldn't get to deduct IDCs that they don't incur.
Exxon does drill, they should get to deduct IDCs.

 

[Slash]

You're including hyrdo power, which has always been part of our energy production. Solar and wind are still less than 5%.

View attachment 143648

Yes solar is green energy... and nice post there.

Granted this topic was on wind and solar, which are used for the electric grid. I've never once claimed anything about the use of wind powered cars and planes. Why would you go to that topic instead now? Oh, wait. Because if you move from the topic of providing energy for the power grid to energy as a whole you can make a chart look better. Never mind, I see why you are bringing in irrelevant information here, it helps your point and rather than make an informed statement, you'd rather use disinformation (unless you really thought I was talking about the hydroelectric jet lol)..... Got it.

Next time if you want to lie, make it clear that you are lying. It saves time. Or if you really thought the topic was on our wind powered cars, let me know.


I'm actually all for this by the way. Where I live in Kansas, it's providing American jobs... And we are working on a deal to start charging Californians to buy our energy.

 

[Slash]

Google doesn't drill for oil, they shouldn't get to deduct IDCs that they don't incur.
Exxon does drill, they should get to deduct IDCs.

So wait... you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas when talking about subsidies that oil and gas get?

IE. Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur. Vestas does, so they should.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Google doesn't drill for oil, they shouldn't get to deduct IDCs that they don't incur.
Exxon does drill, they should get to deduct IDCs.

So wait... you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas when talking about subsidies that oil and gas get?

IE. Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur. Vestas does, so they should.

you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas

I am literally saying that writing off expenses that are only incurred by oil and gas companies isn't a subsidy.

Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur.

No company should get to deduct expenses they don't incur.

Vestas does, so they should.

They should deduct any legitimate expenses they incur. Even IDCs.

 

[there4eyeM]

What is unsustainable is the absurd American consumption of/thirst for 'energy'.

 

[Slash]

you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas

I am literally saying that writing off expenses that are only incurred by oil and gas companies isn't a subsidy.

Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur.

No company should get to deduct expenses they don't incur.

Vestas does, so they should.

They should deduct any legitimate expenses they incur. Even IDCs.

I think we actually agree here. Renewables largest "subsidy" is just that. Tax writeoffs that only affect their business. Same for you and me. Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy. You want the same credit, buy the same thing, nobody else gets to deduct that if they don't incur the cost of buying it.


I mean the ARRA and stimulus funding is long gone. That all dried up a few years ago. Basically it's tax credits now. I mean 8 years ago when we had the stimulus packages out there, wind was something like 6 cents a KW/HR in subsidies. That's down to around 1 cent now and that almost entirely tax credit based.

Solar is still up there and that's the one I am questionable on. I mean it's nowhere near as high as kicking off hydroelectric, coal or nuclear. But wind is doing really well.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas

I am literally saying that writing off expenses that are only incurred by oil and gas companies isn't a subsidy.

Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur.

No company should get to deduct expenses they don't incur.

Vestas does, so they should.

They should deduct any legitimate expenses they incur. Even IDCs.

I think we actually agree here. Renewables largest "subsidy" is just that. Tax writeoffs that only affect their business. Same for you and me. Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy. You want the same credit, buy the same thing, nobody else gets to deduct that if they don't incur the cost of buying it.


I mean the ARRA and stimulus funding is long gone. That all dried up a few years ago. Basically it's tax credits now. I mean 8 years ago when we had the stimulus packages out there, wind was something like 6 cents a KW/HR in subsidies. That's down to around 1 cent now and that almost entirely tax credit based.

Solar is still up there and that's the one I am questionable on. I mean it's nowhere near as high as kicking off hydroelectric, coal or nuclear. But wind is doing really well.

Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy.

That is a subsidy. Unless all car purchases and roof purchases receive the same write off.

 

[Slash]

Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy.

That is a subsidy. Unless all car purchases and roof purchases receive the same write off.

Why? not all energy gets the same tax credits. And Oil and gas we've both shown gets tax credits specific to their industry only.

You build an oil well and I build a windmill, you get tax credits that I don't because while our two pieces of equipment provide the same function, they are technically different, so different credits go to each of us.

You buy a gasoline automobile, you don't get a tax credit. I buy an electric car, I do. Nobody should have to deduct expenses they didn't incur. You didn't incur any expenses for a battery powered vehicle. Only I did.

 

[bripat9643]

Google doesn't drill for oil, they shouldn't get to deduct IDCs that they don't incur.
Exxon does drill, they should get to deduct IDCs.

So wait... you are literally saying we can't count the subsidies that only affect oil and gas when talking about subsidies that oil and gas get?

IE. Shell Corporation doesn't spend money to make more efficient renewable energies, they shouldn't get to deduct the tax credits that they don't incur. Vestas does, so they should.

Deductions for business expenses aren't subsidies. Businesses have always been allowed to deduct expenses. That's part of how you define "income." The federal government is allowed to tax income. Income is defined as revenue - expenses = income. You're trying to claim that the 2nd part of that equation is some kind of subsidy for the oil industry. It's not. You only proved that you're ignorant and gullible.

 

[bripat9643]

Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy.

That is a subsidy. Unless all car purchases and roof purchases receive the same write off.

Why? not all energy gets the same tax credits. And Oil and gas we've both shown gets tax credits specific to their industry only.

You build an oil well and I build a windmill, you get tax credits that I don't because while our two pieces of equipment provide the same function, they are technically different, so different credits go to each of us.

You buy a gasoline automobile, you don't get a tax credit. I buy an electric car, I do. Nobody should have to deduct expenses they didn't incur. You didn't incur any expenses for a battery powered vehicle. Only I did.

Whatever your business buys is an expense that they can deduct from their revenue, whether it's an electric car or a gasoline car.

 

[Slash]

Deductions for business expenses aren't subsidies. Businesses have always been allowed to deduct expenses. That's part of how you define "income." The federal government is allowed to tax income. Income is defined as revenue - expenses = income. You're trying to claim that the 2nd part of that equation is some kind of subsidy for the oil industry. It's not. You only proved that you're ignorant and gullible.

Not that. Oil gets to deduct the cost of a new well THAT YEAR, rather than over the lifetime of the project (in other industries). A HUGE bonus to lowering taxable income.

Same with the deductions for the depletions. 15% is allowed. You can pump 2% of that well and deduct 15% of the oil EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T USE IT. And you can deduct MORE than the costs of acquiring and developing the property.


You can see how these would have a huge effect on taxable income. Those rules alone cost BILLIONS that other taxpayers have to make up for.

And I am not claiming these are tax breaks, the oil industry was when they lobbied for them. Their senators were when they fought for them. That's why they want them. That's why they fight to ensure they continue.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Writing off the expense of a green car or solar roof on taxes that are only incurred by those that by a green car or solar roof isn't a subsidy.

That is a subsidy. Unless all car purchases and roof purchases receive the same write off.

Why? not all energy gets the same tax credits. And Oil and gas we've both shown gets tax credits specific to their industry only.

You build an oil well and I build a windmill, you get tax credits that I don't because while our two pieces of equipment provide the same function, they are technically different, so different credits go to each of us.

You buy a gasoline automobile, you don't get a tax credit. I buy an electric car, I do. Nobody should have to deduct expenses they didn't incur. You didn't incur any expenses for a battery powered vehicle. Only I did.

Why? not all energy gets the same tax credits.

Sure. A wind company deducts employee expenses and materials used to create turbines. An oil company deducts employee expenses and material to build rigs. And those are deductions, not tax credits.

You buy a gasoline automobile, you don't get a tax credit. I buy an electric car, I do

That's a subsidy to the electric car company.

 

[Slash]

Whatever your business buys is an expense that they can deduct from their revenue, whether it's an electric car or a gasoline car.

No. That's why they have SPECIFIC tax codes ONLY for reductions that the oil industry gets and others don't. If you think it's all the same, why not repeal those ones that focus specifically on the oil industry and go with just taxing profits?

Other companies can't write off a 15% loss when they only lost 2%..

That's the entire point here.



Look, you really are trying to say that oil industry spends hundreds of millions lobbying these tax bills but somehow never get anything out of it??? Come on...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Deductions for business expenses aren't subsidies. Businesses have always been allowed to deduct expenses. That's part of how you define "income." The federal government is allowed to tax income. Income is defined as revenue - expenses = income. You're trying to claim that the 2nd part of that equation is some kind of subsidy for the oil industry. It's not. You only proved that you're ignorant and gullible.

Not that. Oil gets to deduct the cost of a new well THAT YEAR, rather than over the lifetime of the project (in other industries). A HUGE bonus to lowering taxable income.

Same with the deductions for the depletions. 15% is allowed. You can pump 2% of that well and deduct 15% of the oil EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T USE IT. And you can deduct MORE than the costs of acquiring and developing the property.


You can see how these would have a huge effect on taxable income. Those rules alone cost BILLIONS that other taxpayers have to make up for.

And I am not claiming these are tax breaks, the oil industry was when they lobbied for them. Their senators were when they fought for them. That's why they want them. That's why they fight to ensure they continue.

And you can deduct MORE than the costs of acquiring and developing the property.

If that's the case, that is a subsidy.

 

[Slash]

Why? not all energy gets the same tax credits.

Sure. A wind company deducts employee expenses and materials used to create turbines. An oil company deducts employee expenses and material to build rigs. And those are deductions, not tax credits.

You buy a gasoline automobile, you don't get a tax credit. I buy an electric car, I do

That's a subsidy to the electric car company.

Nope, it's exactly the same as your own example. Just switched the two sides. Gas cars aren't made the same was as electric cars, just like oil for electricity isn't made the same way as renewables. It's the exact same situation.

And we haven't even gotten to the tax deferment for oil companies. What are we now? Biggest 20 have 175 billion in unpaid taxes that they've deferred with an interest rate of 0%. How much does that one save? Why don't all industries get that? Can my business just say "we will pay our taxes in 20 years of this same exact amount with no interest".

Look, it's not even worth it. The intangible drilling allowance and special percentage depletion allowance are two of the biggest wins for oil that is not shared across all industries.

 

[Slash]

And you can deduct MORE than the costs of acquiring and developing the property.

If that's the case, that is a subsidy.

It's a subsidy no matter what.