The Right To Destroy Jewish History

[Shusha]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

 

[abi]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks?

 

[Shusha]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks?

Do you think I am arguing that the Nakba shouldn't be in textbooks in Israel? Of course it should be. It is correct that the word be removed, though, as it has taken on significant meaning without context.

 

[Coyote]

Israel as victor over the Palestinians controls the narrative. That means they can define who is and who isn't a people or that events like Nakbah are fictional. They are not destroying or altering artifacts however. And thst is a difference.

Seriously? No one denies that the Nakba happened. They challenge the narrative, but no one denies it happened.

Yes they do...when the Israeli narrative diverges so far from the Palestinian one that essentially disenfranchises it then yes it is a denial.

1948 no catastrophe says Israel, as term nakba banned from Arab children's textbooks

Why Israeli textbooks should include the term, that describes the creation of Israel in 1948 as a "catastrophe"?

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

It's insulting to Israel to call its creation and independence a "catastrophe."

Well to the Palestinians it WAS a catastrophe and it's insulting to pretend otherwise. In a really ironic way it represents to THEM what the exodus represented to the Jews thousands of years ago. And I suspect the history back then was just as complicated as the history today.

Refusing to acknowledge it in any way doesn't erase it but trying to excise it is an attempt to erase a particular people's history.

In the article, it notes this about legislation against commemorating Na ba: An initial version proposed by the far-right foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman would have banned all Nakba commemorations and carried sentences of up to three years in prison.

 

[Coyote]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks?

Because it is an integral part of their history.

 

[abi]

Because it is an integral part of their history.

I know; I was asking Shusha.

 

[Sixties Fan]

And right here is an example of the denial Shusha says does not exist. The Palestinians arent a real people and Nakba is no big deal. You are far more eloquent in your wording and divert onto other issues, but it is there none the less.

Are we reading the same post? He said neither of these things.

Further, he confirms that Israel has ALWAYS been willing for the Arabs to have sovereignty and rights in that land.

Seriously? No one denies that the Nakba happened. They challenge the narrative, but no one denies it happened.

Yes they do...when the Israeli narrative diverges so far from the Palestinian one that essentially disenfranchises it then yes it is a denial.

1948 no catastrophe says Israel, as term nakba banned from Arab children's textbooks

Why Israeli textbooks should include the term, that describes the creation of Israel in 1948 as a "catastrophe"?

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

It's insulting to Israel to call its creation and independence a "catastrophe."

Well to the Palestinians it WAS a catastrophe and it's insulting to pretend otherwise. In a really ironic way it represents to THEM what the exodus represented to the Jews thousands of years ago. And I suspect the history back then was just as complicated as the history today.

Refusing to acknowledge it in any way doesn't erase it but trying to excise it is an attempt to erase a particular people's history.

In the article, it notes this about legislation against commemorating Na ba: An initial version proposed by the far-right foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman would have banned all Nakba commemorations and carried sentences of up to three years in prison.

There are two sides to any war.

The ones who win.
The ones who lose.

Israel survived the onslaught of 5 Arab Armies against it population the day after it declared Independence.

Israel lost 6000 lives, many more wounded, all of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem were cleansed of all Jews.

This is the Israeli Nakba, the catastrophe Israel never asked for, having offered endlessly to share the land with the Arab of the land.

The Arabs attacked. The Arabs lost.

Germany attacked in WWI and II. It lost.

Ottomans attacked with Germany. They lost.

They knew how to lose. They accepted it.

The Arabs, being Muslims, and having lost to Islam's hated Jews, to this day cannot accept that they lost.

Many of the Arab countries have made peace or have learned to live with Israel and the real history of what happened, especially the fact that 5 Arab armies lost the war they started in 1948.

Time for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians to make their leaders in Gaza and Judea and Samaria, accept the fact that they have lost each and every time and there is not turning back, as there was no turning back for the Germans, Ottomans, Japanese, or any other country or group of people, which has declared war on others
and then lost.

One cannot keep millions of a group as refugees forever, hoping that one day they will achieve what that war was about. In this case:
The destruction of Israel and the doing away with all Jews, one way or another, just as it was done during WWII.

And by all means....PLLEAESE..........

Never, ever, equate the Arabs being expelled because of a war they started with the Israel and the Jews, and the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt more than 3000 years ago.

Or with the Inquisition, or the Holocaust or any other distinctly Jewish
tragedy, or liberation.

The Jewish Exodus from Egypt was Never a tragedy, a catastrophe for the Hebrews.

It was the freedom they had been looking for after decades or centuries of being enslaved by the Egyptians.

The Hebrews were not expelled from Egypt. It was not their homeland or their home. They escaped and became again a free people who ended up returning to the land they came from and creating a Nation out of it.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks?

Because it is an integral part of their history.

It is actually an integral part of their religion. Islam.

Islam cannot accept losing any land it once conquered. That is a fact.
And losing in 1948 to their dhiimmi Jews........the worst dishonor that Muslims and Arabs can face.

It is about lost face, about lost honor, it is about having lost to the Jews.

And as long as the Jews have Israel, and they have not totally destroyed that country by any means possibly, they will continue to attempt to take any part of Israel, piece by piece.

It is all in the Quran, or the Battle stories of how Muhammad defeated the Jewish tribes of Arabia.

That is what the Arab cry about one of those tribes is all about.
"Remember Khybar"

Muslims have been shouting that outside and inside Israel for a long time. And Alahu Akbar every time they attack a soldier or a civilian.

It has nothing to do with the refugee rights, which should have ended at the same time all other refugee rights do.

War is war.
One loses, one wins.

Muslim history does not accept defeat by the Jews or any other infidels. And that is why they continue to fight Israel instead of using all the money given to them to build a country or two.

The Hashemites did it.
That is what needs to happen with Gaza and Areas A and B.

Enough of destroying Jewish history simply because Islam considers Jews to be inferior to them.

 

[Coyote]

I understand all to well, and I your complete inability to see that there is more to it then the Israeli version of the facts makes discussion difficult.

I will say it one more time.

You, Coyote, for whichever reason, is unable to understand what actually happened in 1948 after Israel declared Independence.

No. Sixtiesfan. I do understand. I just do not agree with your version of events - which at the very least is incomplete.

You do not seem to know or understand all the pieces which were going on at the same time, all the Arab leaders, the Arab League and the decisions they made for the whole Arab population i
n Israel, Gaza , Judea and Samaria.

Until you grasp an understanding of the facts of history, and not narratives from one side or another, I do not see that you or any other well meaning person as you are can evolve beyond what a group of people who have endlessly said and written that they wish to see Israel destroyed and all Jews killed are and always have been about since 1920.

What makes YOU any different than the people who endlessly say and write that they wish to see the Palestinians expelled to Jordan, that they aren't a real people, that they have no rights of place, and that they have no history or culture and that Nakba is a fraud.

I do not divert anything. I have been giving you HISTORY, which is the most important thing to any people.

Without history, without facts, anyone can come and take anyone's identity away.

EXACTLY. Thank you. So why are you so intent on stripping it from the Palestinians?

The Palestinians are a people who DID NOT consider themselves Palestinians before Arafat came up with the idea with the KGB in 1964. That is a fact which No One can change.

It doesn't matter what they called themselves - they certainly considered themselves a people of that PLACE. Every "people" STARTS somewhere. Before there were Jews here there were other peoples. How old does a history have to be for a people to be a people?

I have said it very clearly, the Arabs who were living on the land until 1948 were more than welcome to work on their own State as there had been a partition proposal since 1937 and the Jews accepted that.

I have no way of knowing what sources you read, or listen to.......and I cannot change your mind with historical facts you are unable to see.

I post my sources.

There are 1.2 Million Arab Muslims and Christians in Israel. Many are citizens. Many are applying to become citizens. They have jobs, health care, representation in the Knesset, etc, etc.

And does not even include all the Arabs who live in Areas A and B who come to work, study and for health care.

The same used to be true about the Arabs in Gaza until about 2000.
They still get weekly health from Israel and get to come into Israel for health issues, including the Leaders.

Contrast that with how many Jews work, study or get any health care in Gaza or Areas A and B.

This is why I say you are diverting - I have NO ARGUMENT with you on the above. I am not saying Israel is not a good place. I am not saying that the Palestinians have diversity problems. But none of that is relevent really to the actual discussion.

There was a Nakba? Yes, there was. One of the Arab leaders making. The Palestinians will say so themselves. There are videos of some villagers filmed by Iranian TV on how they were told to leave by their leaders. Or by the Jordanian soldiers.

Palestine-Israel Journal: <b>The Palestinian Exodus 1948</b>

Benny Morris: I do think it’s relevant, since the historian must analyze what happened on the ground. However, the first thing is to accurately define the two traditional views of what happened. Since 1948, the Jews have maintained that the Arabs fled, either what is called voluntarily, or because of orders or requests by their leaders inside or outside Palestine. This has been the basis of Israeli propaganda since 1948.

The Arab view was that the Jews expelled the Palestinians deliberately and systematically, and that this was the end-product or the crowning achievement of Zionist ideology which always maintained that the Palestinians had to be transferred outside of Palestine. In 1948 the Jews got the opportunity to implement the long-conceived plan. If this is so, then Zionism is a robber ideology and Israel is a robber state, according to the traditional Arab view.

The Jewish claim is that Israel had no intention of expelling everybody, but in fact, the Israelis took a deliberate political and military decision not to allow the refugees back.

Many Palestinians left not because they were actually expelled but because of the fear of war, the fear of battle reaching their homes, and so on. But once they had left their villages and the country, and then tried to come back and were barred - that is the point where one can talk of a policy of expulsion​

He goes on to state:

In general, the Arabs fled as a result of direct Jewish attack or an attack in the neighborhood. It was the same in the countryside and towns. So one can probably safely say that, though there were other reasons, the major precip¬itant to the flight of the Arabs of Palestine throughout the war was Jewish attack or what was felt to be the threat of imminent attack by Jewish forces.

...(re Ben-Gurion)...At this point, he begins to think of exploiting the situation. If they are already moving by themselves without a Jewish policy of moving them, per¬haps with a little more deliberate nudging we can get even more to leave. So in terms of the leader of the Yishllv Oewish community), the vital change I think, if there is a change, occurs in February 1948. He understands that we have to exploit the situation to establish the Jewish state and to increase its ter¬ritory beyond what the United Nations had earmarked for Jewish statehood.

The change among other leaders was slower. Ben-Gurion acted as a lob¬byist and was also able to instruct and order the military establishment under his command about what he wanted. You can see the change occur¬ring among other Israeli leaders and officials from April onwards. Up to then, they were thinking in terms of the Arabs staying. Then they, too, adopt¬ed the idea of exploiting the military situation in order to evacuate the Arabs.​

This article is in fact really interesting and in depth. And the history was clearly full of miscalculations on both sides, most certainly the Arabs.

This is a bit of a sidetrack (and I had not realized this either) but it explains I guess some of the actions back then:

One of the contradictions many Israelis ask me all the time to explain is if the Arabs are so attached to their land, why (unlike the Jews) did they seemingly leave so quickly?
One thing which the Jews didn’t grasp in 1948 and afterwards, is how deep the fear of the Jews was among the Arabs. The Jews thought of themselves - their self-image was, we are civilized and Europeans and so on. Why should anybody fear us?

But the fact is that the retaliatory policy of the Hagana in the late 1930’s and the IZL’s (Irgun) terrorism in the 1930s and 1940s had ingrained in the Arabs a deep fear of the Jews. More immediately, when the war began, they sensed their villages would be destroyed, their people massacred, their women raped.

And the Jews, in fact, gave them a whole series of examples on which to build this fear. Each atrocity, such as Oeir Yassin, generated -like a stone in pool-little waves which went to the neighboring villages and beyond. Arab propaganda also inflated this fear.​

So things were very chaotic, with many factions in play. It was nothing so simplistic as "the Arab leaders told them to flee and they did creating thus their own catostrophe" as you state..

The Nakba is a catastrophe brought by the leaders on the Arabs who were made to flee in order to kill all the Jews and destroy Israel.
That is a fact no one can change.
The catastrophe was 5 Arab Armies losing to a much small number of Jews who had to fight for their survival.

That is not a fact. That is your opinion.

And let me bring a historical fact you may forget.

This is ONLY three years after the discovery of what Germany had done to the Jews of Europe.

And it is about Seven years after the Palestinian Arab Leader Husseini
went to Iraq and incited the Arab population there to riot against the Jews there. Nearly 2000 dead, many thousands more injured.

THAT is the mentality going on with the Arab leaders, one of them Husseini himself.


INTENT is very much what determines how history is to look at an event, and NOT the narrative of one side or another.

The INTENT of the Arabs was to kill all Jews.

No. Not at all. "Intent" is often subjective. "Intent" depends on who is viewing. Intent is often the least clear part of history. History is written by the victor and it is that person that records it until later people start examining the "facts" a bit more closely.

We had our "cowboys and indians" version of history for decades. The Turks had their version of the Armenian genocide. Russia has rewritten it's own history endlessly.

Had they succeeded, are you still reading this, how much of a shrug would it have gotten as the massacre in Iraq did. Or what kept happening during WWII which was endlessly shrugged and ignored until the concentration camps were opened?

No one is disputing this least of all myself.

I want you to think, Coyote. As long as it takes you to do it. Research and all. I know you can.

History matters. Period.

Patterns matter. 1300 years of Muslim on Jews pattern does matter.

History matters a great deal. And no one has the right to take the Palestinians history from them any more then they have the right to take the Jew's history from them.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Official PA daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida - Dec. 19, 2017

Excerpt of an op-ed by Bakr Abu Bakr, Fatah Revolutionary Council member and regular columnist for the official PA daily

Headline: “Palestine, what is under the ground and what is above it belongs to you”

“There is no doubt about the Arabness of Palestine for the last 10,000 years, as [PA] President Mahmoud Abbas noted in his latest speech in Istanbul. Regarding the Children of Israel, the Arab tribe that became extinct, and its presence here, indeed it is Arab movement (i.e., apparently meaning an Arab nomadic tribe), and the present residents of our land who are affiliated with the Jewish religion have no connection to them. In other words, they (the residents of the [Zionist] entity) [parentheses in source] are affiliated with several nations, and there is no hereditary – DNA – or national connection between them and the Children of Israel that became extinct. On the other hand, we – the Jebusites, Canaanites (members of the Kinana tribe) [parentheses in source], and Arab Palestinians (the Philistines) [parentheses in source], members of the Tayy tribe, and other tribes - were in Palestine even before the Common Era and established civilization and Jerusalem…
The groups of people that are affiliated with Judaism today… were never a people at any time in history. Religion does not create a people or race. Palestine belongs solely to the Palestinian Arabs, as Yemen belongs solely to the Yemenite Arabs. The scattered members of the nations that are affiliated with Judaism have countries of their own, and if they are here, this is for a Western colonialist goal – the dismantling of the [Arab] nation – and this is pure exploitation of the cover of a religious lie…
O Muslim, O Christian, O Arab, O Palestinian – do not let your spirit fall, as the land belongs to you, and the skies, and the sea. What is under the ground and what is above it attests to this. Our story with these foreigners begins only with the Nakba (i.e., “the catastrophe,” Palestinian term for the establishment of the State of Israel).”


Op-ed in PA daily invents ancient Arab history in Palestine, denies any Jewish ties to the land of Israel: “If they are here, this is for a Western colonialist goal” - Jewish history in Land of Israel erased | PMW

 

[Coyote]

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

The posted article DOES try to make a false moral equivalency between the Shoah and the Nakba.

But no one is erasing the Nakba. Everyone acknowledges that the events happened.

What IS being done is challenging the narrative. The term has grown to encompass an entire narrative which is lacking any sort of proper contextualization.

But the narrative that is challenging Nakba is so distorted that it essentially DOES just that.

I'll again use the Holocaust as an example though the Holocaust was far far worse, and there was no military conflict to complicate narratives. Also it's history has been more widely studied and dissected. But you have seen our clever anti-semites chewing away at it. They'll say it was the fault of the Jews (economic boycotts), they will say the numbers are grossly inflated, they'll say that there were no gas chambers and the deaths were starvation, etc - not discounting that it happened, but attempting to minimalize it and alter the narrative into something quite different.

When the claim is made that the Palestinians did it to themselves - that their leaders told them to flee and they did causing Nakba - then that is denying them their history. It is also, as you succinctly put it "lacking any sort of proper contextualization".

 

[Coyote]

And right here is an example of the denial Shusha says does not exist. The Palestinians arent a real people and Nakba is no big deal. You are far more eloquent in your wording and divert onto other issues, but it is there none the less.

Are we reading the same post? He said neither of these things.

Further, he confirms that Israel has ALWAYS been willing for the Arabs to have sovereignty and rights in that land.

Yes they do...when the Israeli narrative diverges so far from the Palestinian one that essentially disenfranchises it then yes it is a denial.

1948 no catastrophe says Israel, as term nakba banned from Arab children's textbooks

Why Israeli textbooks should include the term, that describes the creation of Israel in 1948 as a "catastrophe"?

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

It's insulting to Israel to call its creation and independence a "catastrophe."

Well to the Palestinians it WAS a catastrophe and it's insulting to pretend otherwise. In a really ironic way it represents to THEM what the exodus represented to the Jews thousands of years ago. And I suspect the history back then was just as complicated as the history today.

Refusing to acknowledge it in any way doesn't erase it but trying to excise it is an attempt to erase a particular people's history.

In the article, it notes this about legislation against commemorating Na ba: An initial version proposed by the far-right foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman would have banned all Nakba commemorations and carried sentences of up to three years in prison.

There are two sides to any war.

The ones who win.
The ones who lose.

Israel survived the onslaught of 5 Arab Armies against it population the day after it declared Independence.

Israel lost 6000 lives, many more wounded, all of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem were cleansed of all Jews.

This is the Israeli Nakba, the catastrophe Israel never asked for, having offered endlessly to share the land with the Arab of the land.

The Arabs attacked. The Arabs lost.

Germany attacked in WWI and II. It lost.

Ottomans attacked with Germany. They lost.

They knew how to lose. They accepted it.

The Arabs, being Muslims, and having lost to Islam's hated Jews, to this day cannot accept that they lost.

Many of the Arab countries have made peace or have learned to live with Israel and the real history of what happened, especially the fact that 5 Arab armies lost the war they started in 1948.

Time for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians to make their leaders in Gaza and Judea and Samaria, accept the fact that they have lost each and every time and there is not turning back, as there was no turning back for the Germans, Ottomans, Japanese, or any other country or group of people, which has declared war on others
and then lost.

One cannot keep millions of a group as refugees forever, hoping that one day they will achieve what that war was about. In this case:
The destruction of Israel and the doing away with all Jews, one way or another, just as it was done during WWII.

And by all means....PLLEAESE..........

Never, ever, equate the Arabs being expelled because of a war they started with the Israel and the Jews, and the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt more than 3000 years ago.

Or with the Inquisition, or the Holocaust or any other distinctly Jewish
tragedy, or liberation.

The Jewish Exodus from Egypt was Never a tragedy, a catastrophe for the Hebrews.

It was the freedom they had been looking for after decades or centuries of being enslaved by the Egyptians.

The Hebrews were not expelled from Egypt. It was not their homeland or their home. They escaped and became again a free people who ended up returning to the land they came from and creating a Nation out of it.

And right here is an example of the denial Shusha says does not exist. The Palestinians arent a real people and Nakba is no big deal. You are far more eloquent in your wording and divert onto other issues, but it is there none the less.

Are we reading the same post? He said neither of these things.

Really?

How would you interpret this? (I interpret it as a statement designed to show the Palestinians aren't a real people).

Could you point out the difference between the Palestinian culture and the Egyptian one? Or the Saudi one?​

How would you intepret this? (I interpret it as saying Nakbah is no big deal).

Nakbah is the Arab cry for not having destroyed Israel in 1948 and ending up not being able to return to the land where Israel sits because the Arabs Leaders told them to leave.

The Catastrophe (Nakbah) was the Arabs listening to their Arab leaders to begin with.​

How would you interpret this? (the Palestinians are a made up people)

There is absolutely nothing to marginalize, minimalize, and erase about Palestinian history. It starts in 1964 when Arafat with the KGB formulated that identity for the Arabs in Gaza and Judea and Samaria.​

How would you interpret this? (Palestinians aren't a real people).

Is there really a difference in culture between a Palestinian one and all other Arab clans or countries?​

 

[Coyote]

And right here is an example of the denial Shusha says does not exist. The Palestinians arent a real people and Nakba is no big deal. You are far more eloquent in your wording and divert onto other issues, but it is there none the less.

Are we reading the same post? He said neither of these things.

Further, he confirms that Israel has ALWAYS been willing for the Arabs to have sovereignty and rights in that land.

Yes they do...when the Israeli narrative diverges so far from the Palestinian one that essentially disenfranchises it then yes it is a denial.

1948 no catastrophe says Israel, as term nakba banned from Arab children's textbooks

Why Israeli textbooks should include the term, that describes the creation of Israel in 1948 as a "catastrophe"?

Why should Germany put the Holocaust in their textbooks? And no I am not trying to make a moral equivalency.

This is trying to erase Nakbah.

It's insulting to Israel to call its creation and independence a "catastrophe."

Well to the Palestinians it WAS a catastrophe and it's insulting to pretend otherwise. In a really ironic way it represents to THEM what the exodus represented to the Jews thousands of years ago. And I suspect the history back then was just as complicated as the history today.

Refusing to acknowledge it in any way doesn't erase it but trying to excise it is an attempt to erase a particular people's history.

In the article, it notes this about legislation against commemorating Na ba: An initial version proposed by the far-right foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman would have banned all Nakba commemorations and carried sentences of up to three years in prison.

There are two sides to any war.

The ones who win.
The ones who lose.

Israel survived the onslaught of 5 Arab Armies against it population the day after it declared Independence.

Israel lost 6000 lives, many more wounded, all of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem were cleansed of all Jews.

This is the Israeli Nakba, the catastrophe Israel never asked for, having offered endlessly to share the land with the Arab of the land.

The Arabs attacked. The Arabs lost.

Germany attacked in WWI and II. It lost.

Ottomans attacked with Germany. They lost.

They knew how to lose. They accepted it.

The Arabs, being Muslims, and having lost to Islam's hated Jews, to this day cannot accept that they lost.

Many of the Arab countries have made peace or have learned to live with Israel and the real history of what happened, especially the fact that 5 Arab armies lost the war they started in 1948.

Time for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians to make their leaders in Gaza and Judea and Samaria, accept the fact that they have lost each and every time and there is not turning back, as there was no turning back for the Germans, Ottomans, Japanese, or any other country or group of people, which has declared war on others
and then lost.

One cannot keep millions of a group as refugees forever, hoping that one day they will achieve what that war was about. In this case:
The destruction of Israel and the doing away with all Jews, one way or another, just as it was done during WWII.

And by all means....PLLEAESE..........

Never, ever, equate the Arabs being expelled because of a war they started with the Israel and the Jews, and the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt more than 3000 years ago.

Or with the Inquisition, or the Holocaust or any other distinctly Jewish
tragedy, or liberation.

The Jewish Exodus from Egypt was Never a tragedy, a catastrophe for the Hebrews.

It was the freedom they had been looking for after decades or centuries of being enslaved by the Egyptians.

The Hebrews were not expelled from Egypt. It was not their homeland or their home. They escaped and became again a free people who ended up returning to the land they came from and creating a Nation out of it.

The Ottomans were Muslim as well.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Is it not?

Palestinian refugee camps - Wikipedia

Why do such camps exist? How can culture not be destroyed when people don't even have their own home?

Why do you conflate the intentional destruction of culture with these other topics? The Arabs are deliberately destroying physical artifacts and archaeological sites so that Jewish history becomes lost, non-existent, disappeared. They are doing this specifically for the purpose of denying Jewish history and therefore Jewish claim. They are destroying reality in order to create a false history. (And its working -- see all the ridiculous claims being made on this board and in the Arab world).

This has nothing to do with the camps. And I can say with absolute certainty that a culture is NOT destroyed when people don't even have their own home. The Jewish culture is alive and well and thriving after thousands of years in the Diaspora. But THANK YOU for articulating another fear and concern about why the Jewish people must remain linked to and present in the Jewish homeland. You know, besides having that history destroyed by people who wish to usurp not only the territory, but the history.


And, btw, why do these camps exist? There is not a single refugee camp in Israel. ALL of the people of Israel have citizenship, equality under the law and the ability to practice their culture. ALL of the Arabs. And ALL of the nearly one million Jews who were stripped of their homes, properties, livelihoods and citizenship and ethnically cleansed from the surrounding ME countries. Why do these camps exist? They exist in "Palestine", in Gaza, in Jordan and in Lebanon. They exist in the midst of a similar, or even identical, culture, where they should be welcomed. And yet they are left in camps -- denied rights, freedoms, citizenship, the ability to work. Its a terrible thing. And deeply shameful, criminal, for the Arabs to treat their fellows this way.

Are you telling me that every topic exists in isolation and nothing ever has anything to do with anything else?

Does culture only disappear with the destruction of historical artifacts?

Is Israel not doing the same thing?

Oh, you say with absolute certainty that these camps are not causing the destruction of culture.

What is culture? Is it possible to keep culture alive in the misery and despair of a camp, growing up in the camp, living there your whole life, are you really a part of the culture of your people?

You say Jewish culture has survived for thousands of years away from home. But these Jews weren't in camps. They were able to make homes and get jobs and live their lives. Sometimes this got interrupted and no doubt culture changed over this period of time too.

As much as you think I'm anti-Jewish or something like that, I'm not. I do think the Jewish people should be able to have their own place to call home. The problem I have is that you have a place where two sides are always at loggerheads and are willing to cheat, lie, do anything in order to gain victory, but neither is strong enough to win. So you have perpetual conflict.

Yes, why do these camps exist?

Jews Now Minority in Israel and Territories

"Proponents worry that if Israel continues to control the Palestinian territories, with or without formal annexation, the different birthrates of Jews and Arabs will eventually result in Jews being a minority in the territory under Israeli control. At that point Israel will no longer be a Jewish state"

Israel puts bill to ‘ensure Jewish majority’ in Jerusalem on hold to ‘coordinate with US’

"
Israel puts bill to ‘ensure Jewish majority’ in Jerusalem on hold to ‘coordinate with US’"

I didn't find exactly what I wanted, but the gist is here. Basically the Jews will never, ever let Israel become a minority Jewish state. They have always made sure it's been a Jewish state with a majority of Jews. They'll accept Muslims as long as they keep control. If the Muslims in Israel were to grow at such a rate as to replace Jews as the Majority, the Jews would do something about it, as they did something about it in the past.

In 1931 there were 175,000 Jews in Palestine and 760,000 Muslims.
In 1947 there were 630,000 Jews in Palestine and 1.181 million Muslims.

Muslims were still a majority.

By 1950 Israel existed and the population of Israel was 1.37 million. Clearly not all those people who were in Palestine were suddenly Israeli citizens.

1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia

700,000 Arabs were expelled from their homes. "around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (50 percent of the Arab total of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes."

Which then helped Israel to become majority Jewish.


But you're partly right. These people are in camps because the neighboring countries also see them as political tools. Israel expelled people from their own land, their own homes. They got rid of them for political reasons and they WON'T ACCEPT THEM BACK. We know why. They don't want a majority Muslim country. So they're playing politics as much as everyone else, and using people's lives as a reason to do this. In the process they've attempted to destroy the culture of the region.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

"The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars."

Claims for the land of Israel/Palestine to be Jewish are stated here. 1) is that "God promised the land" to them. That's pretty far fetched from where I'm sitting to use your own religion as justification for kicking other people off the land.

2) is probably the only one with any real substance here. That they have been a presence in the land, along with the Muslims, means that both should share the land, rather than trying to claim it all.

I'm going to try really hard to stay on topic here. I think you are trying to drag it off course because you can't actually find any instances of Israel deliberately destroying Arab Palestinian culture and yet somehow want to demonize Israel anyway.

First, be clear -- I reject the premise of #1, listed above. Religion, as important as it is to the people who practice it (including me), should never be the basis of political decisions. I also reject #4. The rights and claims of the Jewish people have nothing to do with the result of any conflict. #3 is simply the international acknowledgement of the source of Jewish claim. It is not the actual source.

And here is where we come back to the topic. The Jewish claim to the territory as a homeland for the Jewish people is based on their ancestral, historical, ethnic and religious indigeneity. The Jewish people originated on that land, pre-conquest and pre-invasion. Their history in that land goes back thousands of years. It manifests in their language, their laws, their myths, the clothing they wear, the foods they eat, the holidays they celebrate. The evidence is wide and deep and varied and there can be absolutely no question of the veracity of this.

And yet the Arabs not only question the veracity of this -- they actively attempt to erase the history of the Jewish people. This strategy is employed, not to have the Arab narrative amplified, but to have the Jewish narrative SILENCED. Irrevocably. If there is no evidence that the Jewish people's homeland is in this place, if there is only evidence of Arab occupation, then the Jewish people can be disappeared. And its working. UNESCO has erased the Jewish connection to places like Jerusalem's Old City and the Temple Mount and to Hevron.

I'm not anti-Jewish, so don't try and paint me as the simple black and white character that is totally opposed to Jews and totally for Muslims.

I hate religion, yet at the same time accept people's right to practice religion as long as it doesn't interfere with people's lives. The problem is the Jews AND Muslims in the region are going way beyond simple interference in people's lives.

The problem here, again, is that you're trying to limit the topic to your own views of what culture is, how culture can be destroyed in order to control the narrative and you don't like it that it's taken a turn where things might not actually be as you think they are. That's not my problem, but you're not going to attack me by saying "stay on topic". I've already had one person try that on this thread alone.

Okay, Israel's claim to the land is historical. Yes, at one time Jews were the majority in the land. That was a very long time ago.

From the 5th Century onward it hasn't been the case.
Muslims have as much right to claim the land as their own as the Jews do. It's that simple. If 800 years of majority status in a country doesn't allow you to claim that you're a part of the land, then what does?

The other problem here is that white people have only been a majority in the US for like 300 years. So, would that mean that the white people should be kicked out of the US?

Well... the issue here comes back to power. The white people aren't going anywhere in the US, not because they don't have a legitimate claim, but because they control the power. Israel is trying to claim the power to do what it likes, and the Muslims are also trying to do this too. It's a power struggle and people will come out with things like "we have the historical claim to this land". Well..... three religious groups and other ethnic groups also hold claims that are far more valid than white people's claim to the USA.

Muslims are trying to wipe out Jewish claims, and you have even stated here that Jews have the claim to the land, which is attempting to diminish the claims of the Muslims to that land. What comes around, goes around.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Jewish Claim To The Land Of Israel

"The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham; 2) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 3) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people and 4) the territory was captured in defensive wars."

Claims for the land of Israel/Palestine to be Jewish are stated here. 1) is that "God promised the land" to them. That's pretty far fetched from where I'm sitting to use your own religion as justification for kicking other people off the land.

2) is probably the only one with any real substance here. That they have been a presence in the land, along with the Muslims, means that both should share the land, rather than trying to claim it all.

I'm going to try really hard to stay on topic here. I think you are trying to drag it off course because you can't actually find any instances of Israel deliberately destroying Arab Palestinian culture and yet somehow want to demonize Israel anyway.

First, be clear -- I reject the premise of #1, listed above. Religion, as important as it is to the people who practice it (including me), should never be the basis of political decisions. I also reject #4. The rights and claims of the Jewish people have nothing to do with the result of any conflict. #3 is simply the international acknowledgement of the source of Jewish claim. It is not the actual source.

And here is where we come back to the topic. The Jewish claim to the territory as a homeland for the Jewish people is based on their ancestral, historical, ethnic and religious indigeneity. The Jewish people originated on that land, pre-conquest and pre-invasion. Their history in that land goes back thousands of years. It manifests in their language, their laws, their myths, the clothing they wear, the foods they eat, the holidays they celebrate. The evidence is wide and deep and varied and there can be absolutely no question of the veracity of this.

And yet the Arabs not only question the veracity of this -- they actively attempt to erase the history of the Jewish people. This is a strategy is employed, not to have the Arab narrative amplified but to have the Jewish narrative SILENCED. Irrevocably. If there is no evidence that the Jewish people's homeland is in this place, if there is only evidence of Arab occupation, then the Jewish people can be disappeared. And its working. UNESCO has erased the Jewish connection to places like Jerusalem's Old City and the Temple Mount and to Hevron.

Well, yes, how they are handled matters. The problem in that area right now is that the right wing on both sides is using conflict to enhance their own positions.

What I meant by "it doesn't matter" is that the REALITY isn't important, it's the narrative that each side is producing that is important, that is what is pushing this whole thing, rather than the reality of whether this cultural site is "destroyed" or whatever. If the Palestinian people BELIEVE something has happened, or the Israeli people BELIEVE something has happened, then this is more important than whether it actually happened or not.

I actually hear what you are saying. However, the Arabs (and not just the Palestinians) are using the actual destruction of history as evidence that the Jewish people don't have a history in that land. They are creating a false reality, a false historical record, to erase the Jewish people. Deliberately. Intentionally. This is VASTLY different than Israel being insensitive about a Muslim burial ground.

Well, both sides are creating a false narrative.

Israel is pushing conflict for a reason, and that reason is an excuse to push the boundaries of the state. Without conflict they could never get the support to do this.

There are different ways to try and do this, they're all bad, but this doesn't mean that Israel is any less guilty of trying to destroy culture in order to try and control the narrative.

But Israel is NOT destroying culture to control the narrative.

But Team Israel IS in the sense they are denying the Palestinians right to their own culture (referring to them as just Arabs) and narrative (Nakbah). As Team Palestine is doing to the Jews - marginalize, minimalize, and erase.

The destruction of artifacts though is beyond contempt. Anothet reason why those places should be under Israeli control I think. Their leadership has shown a willingness and ability to preserve and understand the history and archeology of the region. It is irreplaceable.

Could you point out the difference between the Palestinian culture and the Egyptian one? Or the Saudi one?

Nakbah is the Arab cry for not having destroyed Israel in 1948 and ending up not being able to return to the land where Israel sits because the Arabs Leaders told them to leave.

The Catastrophe (Nakbah) was the Arabs listening to their Arab leaders to begin with.

"It will only take two weeks to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews" was the saying they heard.

The Arab leaders failed, lost their attacks, war on Israel and most Arabs (as they believe in the destruction of Israel and the Jews) have not been allowed to return as they would be a fifth column. Just like the many Arabs who do live in Israel and are even in the Knesset and do everything they can to erase the History of the country.

There is absolutely nothing to marginalize, minimalize, and erase about Palestinian history. It starts in 1964 when Arafat with the KGB formulated that identity for the Arabs in Gaza and Judea and Samaria.

The Arabs themselves are proud to say that they saw themselves as part of greater Syria and wanted to be part of Syria. They were not fighting for a region or country named Palestine.

Therefore, "Team Israel" has truly never denied the Arabs rights to live on the land, or even to partition the land and have them have their own Arab State after another Arab clan took 78% of the Jewish homeland for themselves and do not allow Jews to live on it again since 1925.

Team Israel has even offered 98% of its most ancient land with the eastern part of Jerusalem as their capital.

"Team Palestine" needs to put the Arab leaders to answer the why they have rejected two partitions and many peace offerings, and especially why they have gone to UNESCO to turn all Jewish Holy Sites into Muslim ones.

Is Jerusalem Muslim?
The Arabs want the world to accept Jerusalem as a Muslim holy site only.

Where has Israel ever tried to negate the rights of the Arabs who lived on the land for centuries, or even a few decades, to any part of the mandate for Palestine to be turned into their own State?

Has Israel denied the Muslims their holy sites or access to them?

What happens to Jews who want to visit the Temple Mount, the Cave or the Tombs? Or any other Jewish Holy site?

Do we understand the difference?

Is there really a difference in culture between a Palestinian one and all other Arab clans or countries?

What is the difference?

I had the same claim from a Spaniard.

He said the Catalans didn't have their own culture, it was Spanish culture, therefore Franco didn't try to destroy Catalan culture.

Complete nonsense of course.

 

[Shusha]

Does culture only disappear with the destruction of historical artifacts?

Is Israel not doing the same thing?

No, Israel is NOT doing the same thing. That is entirely my point. And you have, thus far, failed to provide any evidence that Israel is doing the same thing.

There are NO camps in any of the places Israel controls. If you are concerned with the people being held in camps, or their retention of their culture -- and you should be -- you need to take it up with the Palestinians, the Gazans, the Jordanians and the Lebanese.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Does culture only disappear with the destruction of historical artifacts?

Is Israel not doing the same thing?

No, Israel is NOT doing the same thing. That is entirely my point. And you have, thus far, failed to provide any evidence that Israel is doing the same thing.

There are NO camps in any of the places Israel controls. If you are concerned with the people being held in camps, or their retention of their culture -- and you should be -- you need to take it up with the Palestinians, the Gazans, the Jordanians and the Lebanese.

I get that this is your point. And I'm attacking your point because it's wrong.

Ah, I've failed to provide evidence that Israel is doing what the Palestinians are doing, even though MY ARGUMENT is that Israel is doing something DIFFERENT to what the Palestinians are doing.

Right... do you want me to provide evidence that Superbowl happened in 1821 too? Why? It's not MY ARGUMENT.

As for no camps in Israeli territory, I'm not really sure what point you think you're trying to make with this.

It's like saying that as there are no refugee camps in Syria, therefore it's not the Syrian govt who forced them out of the country. Are you serious? That's a pretty terrible argument and I'm not really taking it seriously.

 

[Shusha]

I get that this is your point. And I'm attacking your point because it's wrong.

Prove it then. Show me exactly how Israel is deliberately destroying Palestinian history.

Ah, I've failed to provide evidence that Israel is doing what the Palestinians are doing, even though MY ARGUMENT is that Israel is doing something DIFFERENT to what the Palestinians are doing.

I have no doubt Israel is doing different things. Start a thread for the different things, then. This thread is about the destruction of history.

As for no camps in Israeli territory, I'm not really sure what point you think you're trying to make with this.

The point I am making is that Israel does not control the camps. She has absolutely NO influence on how the Palestinian people are treated outside her areas of control. (Within her area of control, there are no camps because she didn't make any.)

You want the people from the camps released and given lives with dignity. I FULLY support that. You have no idea how much I support that. The sooner the better. Start a thread on it and I will participate. But it has NOTHING to do with the destruction of history.

 

[abi]

Prove it then. Show me exactly how Israel is deliberately destroying Palestinian history.

Does he need to prove that Washington was our first President?