The real way to really fix Education

[candycorn]

Really, you don't think more persons going to college is going to improve things? Wow, that's remarkably dense.

So you think just going to college improves things? What if they are drunk or stoned the entire college time? What if they dont earn a degree? What if they earn a degree but dont learn anything? What if their time in college insulates them from the real world and they have no concept how to function as an adult?

College can improve things. That doesn't necessarily mean it will.

Non starter.

Percentage wise, those who graduate college earn much more than those who do not. Fact.

 

[initforme]

"Here's an idea: lower taxes so that it doesn't take two parents working full-time jobs to carry the load. "

Its gonna take a heck of a lot, A TON, more than simply lowering taxes. The two person working thing began strong in the early 80's. It hasnt stopped since. With wages stagnating and for the most part going down, the cost of living going up, and health care barely affordable (thats if two people are working) how are two parents making middle class wages going to make it? Simply cutting taxes will do diddly poo. The so called american dream aint no dream. The middle class is slowly getting priced out of their way of life. And it isnt by their choice as some would say either.

 

[gallantwarrior]

On one point, I can agree with the liberal viewpoint that the laborers, those who work with their hands, should be paid more than some college-educated hack who would starve if required to actually work for a living.

There is no "should" about it. If anyone can negotiate more for their knowledge/skills/usefulness then they will be compensated accordingly. Don't go down the populist rabbit hole, you might not like where it ends.

Oh, no argument about negotiating based on your skills. Are you suggesting unions used a negotiating units, or the individual?

 

[GHook93]

The only way to fix education is to get it away from being an entitlement and back to being something that is a privilege to do. The only to do that is to stop it from being free. School should be provided at 100% of cost only from K through the fifth grade. After that a child has to maintain a B average to continue their education for free. If a child’s grades drop below a B average then the child’s education must be paid for until it is above a B average again. Even if the child stays out of school or if the parent can only afford for the child to re-take one course then so be it. This will get the parents back involved in their kid’s education.

Horrible idea!
Stage 1: Make school about he children not the teacher. It is sick that 60% of property taxes in Cook County (my County) goes to pay for retired teacher's pensions! I is about the same and worse in other Counties around the country! That is sick and disgusting. Our schools are unfunded and FAILING. We have shortages of teachers and liberal states like CA and IL are LAYING off teachers. That 60% would do AMAZING things for schools around the country!
(a) Get rid of pensions! Move all teachers to individual retirement plans (401k and IRA)
(b) Make teachers pay for their health benefits equivalent with that of the private sector
(c) Get rid of tenure. The worst teachers are usually the tenure ones. You suck at your job, you lose your job.
(d) With the dollar saving make lower treacher per student ratio and have more TAs in the classroom. Make it mandatory for teachers to have TA jobs like Doctors intern!

Stage 2: Take behavioral problems seriously I have a plan but no time to state it now.

Stage 3: Segregate children based and intelligence and behavior. Location of where you live shouldn't matter as much as it does!

 

[Crackerjack]

Observing kids today I would make the generalization that alot of american parents do a very poor job of parenting. Either they are too busy or too lazy but surely if you want education to get fixed then you had better fix the home lives of kids right now.

Here's an idea: lower taxes so that it doesn't take two parents working full-time jobs to carry the load.

You'll never lower taxes enough for that to be the case.

With the current spending levels, or just in general? If you're meaning the former, I agree. As to the latter, not so much.

 

[gallantwarrior]

Four pages and no one has mentioned vouchers.

Huh.


Studies show kids who get pre-school do better in life. So pre-school for all should be one goal.

Eliminate tenure up through 12th grade. If you are a horrible teacher, the principal should be able to fire you for cause. Drop kick your ass to the curb. Teachers should advance on merit, not longevity.

Vouchers. Let parents pick the school their kids will attend, not the government.


Readin', 'Ritin', 'Rithmetic. Science, science, and more science. And no more goddam movies in school! Teach! With chalk! Use non-volatile storage devices we call "books".

If a kid misspells a word on a science paper, points get taken off. If words are misspelled on a math test, points get taken off.

Teach the knowledge needed for the jobs of tomorrow, not the jobs of yesterday. Nanotechnology. Biotechnology. Robotics. The days of growing up and going to work in your daddy's factory are OVER!

If you would rather work a blue collar trade, no problem. We can provide plumbing classes. You can't outsource plumbers and electricians, that's for damned sure.

All the tech courses in the world are useless unless the student has a good foundation in basics. Hell, you can't even become a decent electrician unless you have an understanding of trigonometry. Unless you understand basic physics, you won't make a decent plumber. And if you have no basic writing skills, you most likely will not be able to clearly convey much of anything to customers, clients, or others.

I have also noticed lately that reliance on spell-check across a wide spectrum of written material has resulted in some pretty piss-poor documents. (Not just on this forum, but almost every news article I read has some blooper glaring off the page.)

 

[gallantwarrior]

Observing kids today I would make the generalization that alot of american parents do a very poor job of parenting. Either they are too busy or too lazy but surely if you want education to get fixed then you had better fix the home lives of kids right now.

Here's an idea: lower taxes so that it doesn't take two parents working full-time jobs to carry the load.

Lower taxes play little role in the two-income family. My experience is that the parents have to make a decision between properly raising their family or having all those nice little perks: a bigger car, two or three big-screen TVs, all the latest bling and rags. It doesn't really matter whether Mom or Dad becomes the primary care-taker.

 

[gallantwarrior]

At one point in my early academic career (5th grade), I attended an "open" school. Students were assigned to classes according to their skills. An example was our English class. Students were allowed to form study partnerships. Each pair of students was given a packet of information with assignments,vocabulary, and exercises addressing the material in the packet. We completed a minimum number of assignments at our own pace. After turning in the completed packet, we received a new assignment. Motivated students could, and often did, complete additional coursework. There was often even some good-natured competition among the groups.

 

[blimpo]

Basically to improve education, remove the unions. That will solve tons of problems. We can get rid of incompetant teachers, teachers wont have to pay union dues, and they can use that money to pay for their benefits like regular people. Get rid of social promotion, school lunch program and all the crap that they run so they can get government money. All those programs are a scam. And above all change the curriculum back to real subjects (get rid of race relations classes, black history crap, gay history, indian history, women history, living in, how to get married, all of that garbage)

You don't have a clue and no doubt do not even understand what a local teachers' union is.

It is run by a teacher that volunteers their time with no pay. The basic protection is from corrupt administrators (most of which were lousy teachers that decided another degree would get them out of the classroom and a higher salary) and frivalous lawsuits from parents that think little Johnny has been treated badly. State legislatures have stripped the power to actually bargain for much of anything.

 

[blimpo]

The only way to fix education is to get it away from being an entitlement and back to being something that is a privilege to do. The only to do that is to stop it from being free. School should be provided at 100% of cost only from K through the fifth grade. After that a child has to maintain a B average to continue their education for free. If a child’s grades drop below a B average then the child’s education must be paid for until it is above a B average again. Even if the child stays out of school or if the parent can only afford for the child to re-take one course then so be it. This will get the parents back involved in their kid’s education.

Horrible idea!
Stage 1: Make school about he children not the teacher. It is sick that 60% of property taxes in Cook County (my County) goes to pay for retired teacher's pensions! I is about the same and worse in other Counties around the country! That is sick and disgusting. Our schools are unfunded and FAILING. We have shortages of teachers and liberal states like CA and IL are LAYING off teachers. That 60% would do AMAZING things for schools around the country!
(a) Get rid of pensions! Move all teachers to individual retirement plans (401k and IRA)
(b) Make teachers pay for their health benefits equivalent with that of the private sector
(c) Get rid of tenure. The worst teachers are usually the tenure ones. You suck at your job, you lose your job.
(d) With the dollar saving make lower treacher per student ratio and have more TAs in the classroom. Make it mandatory for teachers to have TA jobs like Doctors intern!

Stage 2: Take behavioral problems seriously I have a plan but no time to state it now.

Stage 3: Segregate children based and intelligence and behavior. Location of where you live shouldn't matter as much as it does!

Let's make it so no one wants to make a career of teaching. We'll make the job and the benefits so bad you won't have to worry about getting rid of the bad ones. The problem will be keeping anyone.

BTW- when I taught my wonderful health care cost me $800 a month for a single plan. I would have loved to have had health care benefits like my friends in the private sector.

 

[Unkotare]

Here's an idea: lower taxes so that it doesn't take two parents working full-time jobs to carry the load.

You'll never lower taxes enough for that to be the case.

With the current spending levels, or just in general? If you're meaning the former, I agree. As to the latter, not so much.

Both, unfortunately.

 

[miami_thomas]

I think you strengthen the K-12 experience on the front end. More magnet schools. Teach the trades in High School again.

Then you make 60 hours of college credit available to each student at the outset. The 60 hours will be paid for by payroll witholdings through out their lives as employed adults. Once the tax base expands due to more college grads, you expand it to cover all four years. If you want to use the 60 hours to become a pipefitter; great. If you want to study drama, great. If you want to take 60 hours of dodgeball, great. Just know that there will be money taken out of your paychecks to cover your 60 hours of dodgeball.

More free stuff is not going to get improvements.

Really, you don't think more persons going to college is going to improve things? Wow, that's remarkably dense.

I’m saying that you can send everyone in America to college for 10 years. If the students do not want to learn, you are just wasting your time.

 

[miami_thomas]

Really, you don't think more persons going to college is going to improve things? Wow, that's remarkably dense.

So you think just going to college improves things? What if they are drunk or stoned the entire college time? What if they dont earn a degree? What if they earn a degree but dont learn anything? What if their time in college insulates them from the real world and they have no concept how to function as an adult?

College can improve things. That doesn't necessarily mean it will.

I teach mechanics at UAA. I will attest to the fact that not every person is attuned to "book learning" and many even do better when given an opportunity to tear into something and see for themselves how things work. It is another liberal lie that there can be no personal improvement without a college education. On one point, I can agree with the liberal viewpoint that the laborers, those who work with their hands, should be paid more than some college-educated hack who would starve if required to actually work for a living.

Shouldn't the free market decide what someone gets paid?

 

[miami_thomas]

The first thing that will have the biggest impact is to fix the parents of this country. Observing kids today I would make the generalization that alot of american parents do a very poor job of parenting. Either they are too busy or too lazy but surely if you want education to get fixed then you had better fix the home lives of kids right now. If not, I dont care what you do, things cannot improve in the system. You cant make a nice care out of bad parts. You cant take a kid with a screwed up home life and make them into an engineer. There are exceptions but they are few and far between. It all comes down to parenting which is severlely lacking in this society. Top that with american really doesn value education. People say they do, but they really dont. I for one believe all kids should get post high school education. That will eliminate working blue collar jobs for low pay. Blue collar companies will have a harder time finding workers. That will be a good thing.

That is because parents have had their power taken away and replaced by the government. Parents have to tip toe around everything know and their kids have been given privacy rights and power by the government which intern has taken the power away from the parents. How do you propose to force parents to do their job? Are we to have government parent reviews and imprison those that do a bad job? Does the government take kids away and place them in government training facilities. What I’m suggesting should get parents involved at a child’s early age. Most parent want their kids to get an education and if require a B average to have it for free will push parents to push their children to get better grades. Now parents see school as more a way to get their kids out of their hair until they are 16.

 

[miami_thomas]

Really, you don't think more persons going to college is going to improve things? Wow, that's remarkably dense.

So you think just going to college improves things? What if they are drunk or stoned the entire college time? What if they dont earn a degree? What if they earn a degree but dont learn anything? What if their time in college insulates them from the real world and they have no concept how to function as an adult?

College can improve things. That doesn't necessarily mean it will.

Non starter.

Percentage wise, those who graduate college earn much more than those who do not. Fact.

Key word there is "graduate"

 

[miami_thomas]

The only way to fix education is to get it away from being an entitlement and back to being something that is a privilege to do. The only to do that is to stop it from being free. School should be provided at 100% of cost only from K through the fifth grade. After that a child has to maintain a B average to continue their education for free. If a child’s grades drop below a B average then the child’s education must be paid for until it is above a B average again. Even if the child stays out of school or if the parent can only afford for the child to re-take one course then so be it. This will get the parents back involved in their kid’s education.

Horrible idea!
Stage 1: Make school about he children not the teacher. It is sick that 60% of property taxes in Cook County (my County) goes to pay for retired teacher's pensions! I is about the same and worse in other Counties around the country! That is sick and disgusting. Our schools are unfunded and FAILING. We have shortages of teachers and liberal states like CA and IL are LAYING off teachers. That 60% would do AMAZING things for schools around the country!
(a) Get rid of pensions! Move all teachers to individual retirement plans (401k and IRA)
(b) Make teachers pay for their health benefits equivalent with that of the private sector
(c) Get rid of tenure. The worst teachers are usually the tenure ones. You suck at your job, you lose your job.
(d) With the dollar saving make lower treacher per student ratio and have more TAs in the classroom. Make it mandatory for teachers to have TA jobs like Doctors intern!

Stage 2: Take behavioral problems seriously I have a plan but no time to state it now.

Stage 3: Segregate children based and intelligence and behavior. Location of where you live shouldn't matter as much as it does!

So you think paying teachers twice as much will get twice the results? To quote Socrates, “Education is the kindling of a flame, not the filling of a vessel” and “I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think”. You have to get the students to learn first. If you can do that, you can just give them a book with no teacher and they can learn. A teacher can not teach some one who does not care to learn no matter how hard they try.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Homeschooling is the best way to fix primary education.

 

[candycorn]

So you think just going to college improves things? What if they are drunk or stoned the entire college time? What if they dont earn a degree? What if they earn a degree but dont learn anything? What if their time in college insulates them from the real world and they have no concept how to function as an adult?

College can improve things. That doesn't necessarily mean it will.

Non starter.

Percentage wise, those who graduate college earn much more than those who do not. Fact.

Key word there is "graduate"

Wow...logic would dictate that you have to be able to afford to attend prior to graduation. My plan removes that barrier.

Again, we're not talking about giving people anything they're not going to pay back through withholdings in their life. If they flunk out, decide to quit, etc... the witholding takes root whenever they get a job doing whatever. If they are flipping burgers at Dairy Queen or whereever, they will have a % taken out of their pay to repay the hours that were paid for by the taxpayers.

We're also not talking about just funding the next generation of birdwatchers. I enjoy birdwatching (or at least used to back in South Carolina) and I have nothing against it but it's not a profitable vocation. You get 60 hours to take whatever advanced education you want. If you want to use it to be a nurse's aide, great. A welder? Great. A/C Technician? Great. Photographer? Great. Music? Even better. But it has to be a State accredited school and whatever you use will be paid back through witholdings during your productive life. Whether you are using the degree/certificate/training or not.

There will be those who just vanish from society and never work. That money will be lost. But it will be more than made up for by the ever expanding tax base that will be a result of such a simple, brilliant system.

 

[candycorn]

More free stuff is not going to get improvements.

Really, you don't think more persons going to college is going to improve things? Wow, that's remarkably dense.

I’m saying that you can send everyone in America to college for 10 years. If the students do not want to learn, you are just wasting your time.

Well those that are remaining in school in your plan will have plenty of jobs waiting for them as prison guards, wardens, parole officers, probation officers, bounty hunters, etc... That is the only industry that will expand under your "plan". I love it...11 years old and you're gone!

 

[gallantwarrior]

Basically to improve education, remove the unions. That will solve tons of problems. We can get rid of incompetant teachers, teachers wont have to pay union dues, and they can use that money to pay for their benefits like regular people. Get rid of social promotion, school lunch program and all the crap that they run so they can get government money. All those programs are a scam. And above all change the curriculum back to real subjects (get rid of race relations classes, black history crap, gay history, indian history, women history, living in, how to get married, all of that garbage)

You don't have a clue and no doubt do not even understand what a local teachers' union is.

It is run by a teacher that volunteers their time with no pay. The basic protection is from corrupt administrators (most of which were lousy teachers that decided another degree would get them out of the classroom and a higher salary) and frivalous lawsuits from parents that think little Johnny has been treated badly. State legislatures have stripped the power to actually bargain for much of anything.

There may be some merit to what you say about local teachers' unions. My brother teaches in NV and says he would support a local union without a blink. But he refuses to join the NEA. He says the do nothing to further education, especially on a local level. But they do everything they can to further their political agenda and fatten the union coffers. NV is a right-to-work state and teachers cannot be forced to join the NEA, or locals, either, if they do not want to.