The Real Problem with America

[Modbert]

Not enough Canadians.

THAT'S the real problem with America!

We let enough of them in, they'll take our jobs and make us learn their national anthem.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls]YouTube - south park-they took our jobs!!![/ame]

 

[Woyzeck]

Don't confuse them by introducing facts here.

Facts like once we phased out property requirements for voting, our leaders or the country didn't actually decline at all, but had the inverse effect of making us best in the world?

Classic illustration of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Ah, classic illustration of the "fancy latin-y term that makes me sound smart instead of fessing up that I was caught in my own bullshit" gambit.

Thanks for pointing that out man, forum newbies always need an actual example to learn what not to do.

 

[The Rabbi]

Facts like once we phased out property requirements for voting, our leaders or the country didn't actually decline at all, but had the inverse effect of making us best in the world?

Classic illustration of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Ah, classic illustration of the "fancy latin-y term that makes me sound smart instead of fessing up that I was caught in my own bullshit" gambit.

Thanks for pointing that out man, forum newbies always need an actual example to learn what not to do.

I can't help it that your highest achievement in school was 6th grade and you don't know what I'm talking about.
It means, Just because something happened after something else doesnt mean it caused something else. But it is a well known logical fallacy and even 20 seconds on Google would have taught you that. Maybe using Google is beyond you as well.

 

[Toro]

hey rabbi and political chick and libapocalypse...how about we give the wealthiest 10 votes each and then take away votes for each individual as they make less money and pay less in taxes....while you are at it?

Hey dipshit. There were property qualifications to vote in most states for a hundred years and we elected people like Washington and Jefferson. Now we elect people like Clinton and Obama. Consider that first.

To be fair, you're comparing overly-deified revolutionary war heroes to guys who haven't had that same opportunity as they did. Guys who we constantly worship to guys we still see as very, very human, whom most of us have a firsthand account of their presidencies.

But yes, obviously once we abolished property qualifications, the quality of presidents and leaders went down. It's not like we became an industrial or technological leader or one of the most powerful countries on earth by electing leaders without property restrictions.

Oh wait...

Most of the Presidents in the 19th century sucked.

 

[Woyzeck]

Classic illustration of the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Ah, classic illustration of the "fancy latin-y term that makes me sound smart instead of fessing up that I was caught in my own bullshit" gambit.

Thanks for pointing that out man, forum newbies always need an actual example to learn what not to do.

I can't help it that your highest achievement in school was 6th grade and you don't know what I'm talking about.
It means, Just because something happened after something else doesnt mean it caused something else. But it is a well known logical fallacy and even 20 seconds on Google would have taught you that. Maybe using Google is beyond you as well.

Weird, doesn't your own argument apply for you as well?

We nixed the property requirements in 1850. Surely the country went downhill once he did as you claimed. It only took 150 years after getting rid of property requirements for you to find presidents you lived through and didn't like. Bit of a late effect with that, eh?

But, we had good and bad presidents with property requirements just like we do without them. The only difference between them now is, without requirements had more time to elect bad presidents.

 

[FA_Q2]

I cannot believe that you actually espouse to a property ownership rule here rabbi. Care to address the points I made rather than allude to some past presidents? You seemed to gloss over the points I made that make your proposition to voting a civil and human rights nightmare.

 

[The Rabbi]

I cannot believe that you actually espouse to a property ownership rule here rabbi. Care to address the points I made rather than allude to some past presidents? You seemed to gloss over the points I made that make your proposition to voting a civil and human rights nightmare.

I'm not sure what points you made.
The Founders lived at a time when such things were common and regular. Piece by piece we have enfranchised more and more people and the results of elections are more and more disappointing. The Founders warned about this very thing, that when the masses realize they can vote themselves bigger and bigger entitlements then they will bankrupt the whole system. That's about where we are now.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

It means, Just because something happened after something else doesnt mean it caused something else.

Yeah, kinda like claiming that that system went down the drain because of the abolition of property requirements. Go figure.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Piece by piece we have enfranchised more and more people and the results of elections are more and more disappointing.

Yeah, it was bad enough when they abolished property reqs, but *******, women, minorities, and residents of DC? Holy shit did they fuck things up. If we only had propertied white males like Rabbi here voting, this country would definitely be on the right track, because the Rabbi knows whats best for you.

 

[The Rabbi]

Piece by piece we have enfranchised more and more people and the results of elections are more and more disappointing.

Yeah, it was bad enough when they abolished property reqs, but *******, women, minorities, and residents of DC? Holy shit did they fuck things up. If we only had propertied white males like Rabbi here voting, this country would definitely be on the right track, because the Rabbi knows whats best for you.

I'm sorry you're a dimwit. Maybe you can get a job in Obama's cabinet.

 

[FA_Q2]

I cannot believe that you actually espouse to a property ownership rule here rabbi. Care to address the points I made rather than allude to some past presidents? You seemed to gloss over the points I made that make your proposition to voting a civil and human rights nightmare.

I'm not sure what points you made.
The Founders lived at a time when such things were common and regular. Piece by piece we have enfranchised more and more people and the results of elections are more and more disappointing. The Founders warned about this very thing, that when the masses realize they can vote themselves bigger and bigger entitlements then they will bankrupt the whole system. That's about where we are now.

If you have no stake in the system, nothing to lose, why should you have a say in how other people's money is spent?

SHEESH....and republicans CLAIM it is the liberals pitting the welathier against the poor....

you are the second republican in 24 hours that has done such....

why do republicans have to lie about themselves pitting the rich against the poor saying that this is what liberals do when it is THEIR AMMO....THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.....what an elitist attitude Rabbi!

Please care, you know that generalizing all of us R's with the Rabbi is extremely unfair. There are quite a few libs that I believe you would not want to be generalized with either. Give the credit where it is due


The issue with disallowing one group to vote in favor of another is that group looses all control over the direction of the government and their place within it. Any system that delineating the haves from the have nots is the WORST way to divide a vote as it makes a clear path to exploitation of the have nots. Given enough time, slaver would begin again to sound like a valid direction if those that were to be enslaved did not have a say and those that would be the masters get to make the decisions. EVERYONE here has a 'steak' in the system as you put it. Even if they do not contribute a net positive they still have a clear steak. Granted, this causes the issues that people are facing today: politicians giving what is not theirs to give to get votes but there is always the balancing factor here because those that are taken from also get a voice. Take one groups voice away and you end up with the remaining group tyrannizing the other. Eventually people will get fed up and get off their asses to vote if it gets bad enough. Realize that our voter turnout in this country is pathetic, mainly because we do have it so good. When things get bad enough for a certain group they WILL turn out in greater numbers and turn the tide. It is unfortunate that the people need it to become so bad before they actually realize they have the power at the voting booth but that is the sad truth.


Restricting the right to vote is the FASTEST way to tyranny by a class, certainly faster than your fears of socialism. It is disingenuous to decry the rout of socialism to tyranny and then support a worse method of the same ending.

The founders also lived in a time when women had no rights and minorities were slaves. That is the society that the rich land owners voted for. A good society in its time to say the least but we have come to realize there needed to be changes. Changes like the abolition of slavery, women rights and the right to vote extended to every citizen. Human rights is intrinsically integrated with our free trade system in the creation of the richest and most powerful nation on the face of the planet.

 

[The Rabbi]

So your point is that allowing only property owners (and many of them are very poor) to vote would somehow produce a resurgence of slavery?
Are you fucking serious? How about suggesting it would trigger nuclear war? How about it would trigger global warming? All of those are about as believable.

 

[Unapologetic Am]

Well you may not have all the answers but it is a start.
How about we find a way to force the supreme court to reverse there decision whereby foreign business, individuals and COUNYRIES can buy our politicians with campaign contributions.
ONLY AMERICANS should be able to donate. And no more than 1.00 per American. Into a general fund
Then 1 year before election day each registered candidate gets an equal share.
We as people could see how they spent that money and judge more closely weather we want them spending our money.

 

[antagon]

You know we spend an awful lot of time arguing back and forth for our chosen Parties, But we are kidding ourselves America. Neither party is the answer to our problems because they are at the core of the problems.

The System is broken. Broken by a constant cycle of Campaigning and Career politicians. Broken because of a 2 party strangle hold on power.

I do not claim to have all the answers but I think 2 very important things that need to happen before America will be heading the right way are:

1 Campaign Finance.
We need to Limit the influence of Money in elections as much as we can. We could start by setting up a way to publicly fiance all campaigns equally. Compel or pay for Network coverage of debates. We should also shorten the campaign time significantly. 2 Years of it means that basically they are never not campaigning.

2 Term Limits.
We must end the career politician. Mainly because people are compelled to act differently when they have to think about re-election then when not. Maybe slightly longer terms but only 1 Term. For Both the President and Congress. No more running for re-election. We also need a more direct tool for removal of People who are not performing up to par, or not living up to their promises. Some kind of Popular Vote of No confidence where if a certain % of Americans. prolly like 3/4's vote no confidence it means we then hold A special Election to replace that person. Be it the President or A Congress person. Maybe let that person then run against the others to try and keep his or her job if he can get the votes.

Like I said I don't claim to have the answers I just know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Neither the Democrats or Republicans Nor anyone working inside our current system has them either, and to continue down our current path is definite National suicide.

these can only be problems with american politics, which is a minor component of america, which for the most part, i don't think is wrong or heading in the wrong direction at all.

i'm surprised that conservatives are so eager to take up these two reforms to politics. campaign finance 'reform' has ruined the republican party entirely. it is demographically and ideologically different from the GOP of the reagan era by virtue of it. i feel that it is dramatically worse. look at the election results. because of campaign finance reforms, the GOP is a sinking ship.

it goes beyond elections. reagan era conservatism used to be consulted and supported by america's businesses and business people. democrats were traditionally working class constituents. because of these reforms, democrats have enjoyed more access to these traditionally republican demographics. as a result, i think the democrats have been moderated considerably, and have moved toward the center of the spectrum, save for many of the old guard. republicans have resorted to populist bases which the democrats dont dominate. the shift of republican appeal from the 'wall street republicans' of the reagan era to rural social conservatives has spoiled the party for me and a number of other social libertarian, fiscally conservative or business-minded voters.

as for term limits, i think the idea of a mandatory new crop every few years is literally converse to the idea of conservatism. enacted, and it is doubtful that it ever will, congressional term limits would lead to fresh experimentalists, rather than entrenched conservatives who could appreciate first hand that there are merits to how things used to be done.

i'm surprised by how many right wingers are supportive of these ideas, but that only indicates the political naivete of the latest wave of conservative movements like the tea parties, and the propensity for the GOP to legislate itself out of existence unwittingly.

 

[The Rabbi]

Well you may not have all the answers but it is a start.
How about we find a way to force the supreme court to reverse there decision whereby foreign business, individuals and COUNYRIES can buy our politicians with campaign contributions.
ONLY AMERICANS should be able to donate. And no more than 1.00 per American. Into a general fund
Then 1 year before election day each registered candidate gets an equal share.
We as people could see how they spent that money and judge more closely weather we want them spending our money.

Six posts and you've already demonstrated you are totally clueless about the whole issue. That must win some kind of award.

 

[Unapologetic Am]

Why don’t we give control of a congressman’s salary back to the people he/she represents. The states treasurer should be responsible for making the payment.

Yes we need a more know legible public. But to do this we must do away with the public school system. It dose nothing to foster a sense of purpose in our children. It only strengthens the belief that mediocrity is acceptable (We wouldn’t want to hurt little Johnny’s feelings would we.) Yes we would. If little Johnny is a moron don’t make all his pears be morons to.

Everyone has a right to vote weather welfare recipient or not. To solve this particular problem we need to do away with welfare. I’m all for that. In 1990 I fell and got hurt. Cant work 8 hr days. Some days I spend 5-8 hours on ice packs alternating with heat. Since then my o’lady been supporting our family of 4 on less than $19,500 per year. We get no money no insurance nothing. We do get food stamps and our children get medical insurance. Which we use sparingly.
In 1991 we bought Mobil home for $1200 paid cash. (And I got no money for my injury.) Our lot rent (we don’t own land) is 75.00 per month. I’m sitting in it right now. No AC its 107 degrees in here. My mouse is sticking to the melting mouse pad its so hot. We own our car and a truck outright. Our bills are about $15,575 per year.

So I say ELIMINATE WELFARE AND SAY TO ALL LIVE OR DIE BY YOUR OWN WITTS.
Now this Unapologetic American will apologize for his suckling at the nations tit.
However accepting the states assistance was the only way to get the state from LOARDING over the welfare of our children. I PROMISE once they are not minors we will tell the state to go f themselves

As to term limits I say no. but I think a sitting politician should not be allowed to campaign.
Publish his/her record and answer direct questions. Limiting the word count of answers. Cause man they love to say nothing in as many words as possible.

How about having a limit on the number of times something can be brought up for a vote. Say if it fails to pass it is shelved for say 10 years.

Laziness is only part of the problem. Do you realize that many of our schools teach nothing of value about this nations history. I have senior and sophomore neither has ever seen a copy of the constitution or bill of rights. Not to mention the federalist papers. The Alamo is never mentioned. It is a travesty what our schools have become. Yet every year they spend 30 to 60 days on black history month. (isn’t a month between 28 & 31 days.)

If your poor and working you get more back than you pay in excluding sales tax. Especially if you have kids. That $2000.00 child tax credit that expired last year was a massive hand out. Our family paid in state and fed about $1000.00 Got back almost $6000.00. Come on how is that fair to anybody. Lets all screw have kids and collect massive amounts of cash from Uncle Sam.

Hay rab. its you who is clueless 6 posts I don’t think those 5 on another topic can truly show my grasp of this topic.
But I will not apologize for your ignorance.

 

[FA_Q2]

So your point is that allowing only property owners (and many of them are very poor) to vote would somehow produce a resurgence of slavery?
Are you fucking serious? How about suggesting it would trigger nuclear war? How about it would trigger global warming? All of those are about as believable.

That is one point. It may not be slavery but it would be exploitation at the very least. What do you think would happen to all the white people if the white population were completely excluded from the vote but minority populations were not? You think there would not be any exploitation coming out of that? What about men? If no man was allowed to vote do you think everything would continue on in a completely fair way? Do you not understand that by taking away a specific groups vote you remove their ability to govern themselves and open the door to direct oppression by the remaining populous. You have no idea what this country represents. We are not an elitist group that stands on the poor. That is EXACTLY what you get when the poor can no longer vote.

 

[FA_Q2]

Laziness is only part of the problem. Do you realize that many of our schools teach nothing of value about this nations history. I have senior and sophomore neither has ever seen a copy of the constitution or bill of rights. Not to mention the federalist papers. The Alamo is never mentioned. It is a travesty what our schools have become. Yet every year they spend 30 to 60 days on black history month. (isn’t a month between 28 & 31 days.)

The fix for that is not eliminating the education system but reforming it. There is no benefit to having a population that cannot add. Honestly, our schools need to teach critical thinking more than anything else but that is another topic.

 

[Father Time]

I disagree with both ideas and think they will make things worse.
The reason for bad politicians is a bad electorate. Improve the electorate and you improve the people they elect.
Property ownership or freehold requirements for voting will change most of that.

What are freehold requirements?

A demonstrated net worth.
And pace Leftwingnut, the system was designed around voters who had a stake in the system. The more we've gone away from that, the worse politicians we have elected.

We all have a stake in the System.

Anyone who buys anything within most of the U.S. has to pay taxes (sales taxes), and we all have to abide by the laws the government enacts.

What makes property holders so special?

 

[Father Time]

Not enough Canadians.

THAT'S the real problem with America!

We let enough of them in, they'll take our jobs and make us learn their national anthem.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLni3wbndls]YouTube - south park-they took our jobs!!![/ame]

I was going to follow this with a video of the Simpsons singing Oh Canada! but I couldn't find it.