The Passion Of The Liberal

[Avatar4321]

Article 3 Section 3

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Giving aid and comfort is a treasonous act. John Kerry did so. The North Vietnamese have stated themselves that they would have lost if the "AntiWar" Protestors hadnt givent them aid and comfort. It doesnt matter that John Kerry served for a few months there. That doesnt give him the right to betray his fellow soldiers when he got home. Benedict Arnold fought for his country too. But he later betrayed it. Kerry is no different in this respect.

And how you seem to think lying about your fellow soldiers is informing the citizenry is beyond me. Contrary to the white wash history the Anti war movement was never very strong in Vietnam. Even among Americans who wanted to leave vietnam, most wanted to get out of it honorably like Nixon proposed. And then of course The Dems stopped support for South Vietnam which brought millions of people to the grave in Southeast Asia. Kerry and his friends have all those death on their hands. Its not something I would want.

 

[Avatar4321]

So, it's alright to support oppressive totalitarian regimes like the Shah's? You just said that you were in favor of invading every country with a brutal totalitarian regime. Your logic escapes me on this one. You're also defending the support of Saddam by Reagan. Isn't that also contradictory? Did the Reagan adm. think that he was going to bury the WMD in the sand? From what you are saying, it must be O.K. to support some brutal regimes some of the time, but that we should invade the country of every brutal regime. Wow, now there's a conservative argument. How does supporting some brutal regimes fit into your Christian Ethics?

Shah wasnt toltalitarian. You are confusing totalitarian with old fashion dictators. My logic only escapes you because you dont seriously think about it.

I am for using force to overthrow oppressive regimes. Im also willing to help oppressive regimes fight against even worse oppresive regimes. If i have to choose between a Democracy and a dictator, ill pick the democracy, but if i have to choose between a dictator and a totalitarian im going to pick the dictator.

Its called choosing the lesser of two evils. When faced between supporting a tyrant who denies basic rights and a totalitarian who denies basic rights and sends people to mass graves for disagreeing with them im going to choose the first. I dont particularly care for either choice but sometimes you have to make tough choices in life.

 

[Avatar4321]

I see Saddam as evil. I see President Bush and his adm. as evil.

And what exactly has Bush done thats so evil? He is defending the country. The only thing i find objectionable is that he is pushing forward many of the liberal programs, which i can understand why, he did make some campaign promises. Misguided in a few areas but certainly not evil.

I see evil in those who profess to be good Americans and then want to deny certain freedoms such as speech to other Americans.

Has anyone denied you your right to say what you want? Have you been jailed, beaten and killed for speaking your mind? No. So dont give me the BS that you have had your freedoms denied. You have the freedom to speak. we dont have to listen to your BS. And contrary to your belief, you dont have the freedom to lie. There are consequences for speaking your mind. The government isnt going to through you in jail for speaking your mind, but the people might voice their freedom of speech in opposition and call you on your lack of patriotism or boycott your cds of their own free speech. Go to China and try to speak your mind there and then complain about people denying free speech here.

 

[wonderwench]

And it wouldn't hurt to place things in a historical perspective.

The U.S. was engaged in the Cold War. The bigger evil was the Soviet Union and communism in general. The U.S. entered into relationships with quite a few despicable regimes in order to thwart the spread of communism. The alternative was to go isolationist - which would have been disastrous.

 

[Avatar4321]

The U.S. entered into relationships with quite a few despicable regimes in order to thwart the spread of communism.

But dont you see. That was the true crime of America. We fought the Cold war to thrwart the spread of communism. That is the lefts utopian idea.

Its true that some of them have abandoned communism in a fashion. They have detached themselves from it by calling them socialists and then "progressives". In fact many liberals nowadays are probably ignorant that their main idealogies come from the radical communist agenda. I think Glenn Beck pointed that out pretty strongly when he put a list of the communist agenda to overthrow the United States in his book. Not surprisingly its made up of basically the same issues the liberals are pushing today.

 

[Bern80]

Originally posted by for the people
By the way, the Bush adm. can't even justify the war other than to say that Saddam was a ruthless tyrant. Obviously you must know more, or think you do, than them.

Is being a ruthless tyrant not enough for you?

I definitely don't deny that there is evil in this world. It's just that I see evil in more places than you do.

What your avg conservative does not understand is why liberals keep barking up the wrong tree. You hold protests against the Bush admin. which you say is evil which is debateable to say the least. We have dictators who we know are evil as you have admitted yet we don't see you protesting them at all.

It's conservatives like you that can't move out of their comfort zone and look at things objectively. You will never understand liberals. To understand would probably entail becoming one. Conservatives appear to be content to wave the flag, thump the Bible, and pass judgement on those who disagree with the status quo or who are different than they are. How Christian is that?

A liberal calling himself objective?! Good one. I don't know how many times I have to say this but just becasue i dont' agree w/ you doesn't mean I haven't considered your side or listened. It means you have not persuaded me and that I think you're still wrong

I see Saddam as evil. I see President Bush and his adm. as evil.
I see evil in those who profess to be good Americans and then want to deny certain freedoms such as speech to other Americans.

Could you spell out said evils of Bush admin factually.

If your family and friends had been killed by the invading forces or if your son was a US soldier killed during the invasion, you might feel differently too. We could play "what if" for eternity.

Most people, especially Americans that in war people die. That is the price of defending people in some cases. If my cousin dies in a war I don't see myself jump on the "war is bad" bandwagon. It would depend on the circumstances of the conflict. I understand why Kerry protested Vietnam even though he served. That is not comparable to WWII or the Gulf War or our situation now. It comes down to if this war is the right thing to do.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
But dont you see. That was the true crime of America. We fought the Cold war to thrwart the spread of communism. That is the lefts utopian idea.

Its true that some of them have abandoned communism in a fashion. They have detached themselves from it by calling them socialists and then "progressives". In fact many liberals nowadays are probably ignorant that their main idealogies come from the radical communist agenda. I think Glenn Beck pointed that out pretty strongly when he put a list of the communist agenda to overthrow the United States in his book. Not surprisingly its made up of basically the same issues the liberals are pushing today.

It wasn't a crime. It just left a mess that we are now having to face.

Given your post, you must support Bush Doctrine of pre-emption?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
For Yourself - have you actually lost someone in this war?
I for one have a loved on there as we speak, and still support the decision! I guess that's why I am evil!!

I've got family there now. The war was wrong...Nothing will change that. Support the troops until Dubbyuh's sorry ass is booted out of office then bring them home.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
I've got family there now. The war was wrong...Nothing will change that. Support the troops until Dubbyuh's sorry ass is booted out of office then bring them home.

Sure, Bully, I believe you.

Your ramblings are becoming more and more pathetic as the election drwas nearer. Are you going to implode when Bush is re-elected?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Sure, Bully, I believe you.

Fuck off. My nephew is with an arty company outside Baghdad.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Fuck off. My nephew is with an arty company outside Baghdad.

And I think you're a bedpan sniffing liar. Making this kind of stuff up is pathetic, loser.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
And I think you're a bedpan sniffing liar. Making this kind of stuff up is pathetic, loser.

Y'all seem to be the one's infatuated with making shit up. Again...Fuck off.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Y'all seem to be the one's infatuated with making shit up. Again...Fuck off.

I'll refer you to Evil's post and his reference to the rules.

You've lost all credibility and are a liar in my opinion. I think you made this crap up and I find it reprehensible that someone would lower themselves to such lengths.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
The war was wrong...Nothing will change that.

Funny, you're the very definition of close-minded.

 

[Avatar4321]

I've got family there now. The war was wrong...Nothing will change that. Support the troops until Dubbyuh's sorry ass is booted out of office then bring them home.

Yes of course. Its totally wrong to end a regime of an evil totalitarian regime. Lets just bring the troops home before Iraq is totally stable and put them in a civil war and watch as an even worse regime than Saddam emerges so that the lives of our troops who have died to free Iraq will have been in vain.

You claim to support the troops. Prove it. Vote for the guy letting them do what they were sworn to do, protecting liberty in the world. Dont vote for the guy who voted to put them in Iraq and then voted to deny them the funds they needed to survive telling the troops that they ought to go buy their own body armor if they want to survive.

 

[for the people]

And how you seem to think lying about your fellow soldiers is informing the citizenry is beyond me. Contrary to the white wash history the Anti war movement was never very strong in Vietnam. Even among Americans who wanted to leave vietnam, most wanted to get out of it honorably like Nixon proposed. And then of course The Dems stopped support for South Vietnam which brought millions of people to the grave in Southeast Asia. Kerry and his friends have all those death on their hands. Its not something I would want.

I don't know anything about the winter soldier report. I will find out more. I don't get angry when someone makes me question things logically. Some of the members who have posted replies need to follow along. You're arguing against points that I never made.

First, Johnson had arranged a peace plan to get out of Vietnam honorably at the end of his adm. It was sabbotaged by Kissinger (who was already working in the State Dept.) on Nixon's behalf. I really don't know how the power hungry Kissinger can sleep at night. To blame the protestors for the withdrawl after that is just trite.
The Vietnam War was awful for all sides involved. I also beleive that the Vietnam Vets were treated horribly by many Americans. They served our country and should have been given respect.

The problem with the Vietnam War was that America was fighting in a dubious position. On one hand we wanted to stop the Communist spread in SE Asia which I do understand. On the other hand, we were afraid to go in and obliterate North Vietnam for fear that China and the USSR would retaliate and start WWIII.
Consquently, there was no clear plan on our part. This became apparent to many Americans and US soldiers.

You have argued that sometimes it is necessary to support regimes that we do not like to further our US causes. I have never said that we don't have to pick and choose our battles wisely or that war is never necessary. I was pointing out that you had stated that we were out building free nations and then turned around and said that we sometimes have to act in our own best interests. You can't have it both ways. (For those of you who posted replies other tha Avatar, try to follow along. You're taking illogical leaps and getting all fired up over arguments that I never made. Take some prozac or something!)

I do not beleive that any US soldier should be killed or wounded in a war for a country(Iraq) where its own people don't want us there.
Yes, some do, but I don't see it being the majority. I don't see
how anyone can claim that an American who doesn't want American soldiers to die in Iraq as being anti-American or not supporting the troops. Again, why iraq? If we are doing the compassionate thing, why didn't we invade a country where its citizens are suffering far more than the Iraqi citizens? You also stated that we should invade every country with Totalitarian Regimes. (By the way, I don't know of too many dictators who are not totalitarian.) So, we're to send our soldiers around the world to die and bankrupt the country on a crusade that we can't possibly accomplish. Now who's living in a fantasy utopia? How you can say that not advocating war against Iraq is supporting Saddam is beyond me. Do you really think that if Iraq was not in the Middle East and didn't have huge oil reserves that we would be there?

We go on ignoring the problems here at home and spend hundreds of billions on Iraq. Where is your compassion for the starving children and the working poor in the US? Wouldn't it make more sense to deal with some of our domestic problems?
We have a very unstable society as indicated by our crime rate and divorce rate. The biggest threat to the US is from within. Other industrialized nations do not have the unstable society that we have, yet we refuse to look at some of their solutions or do anything at all. I fear that it is the conservative refusal to move forward and make changes that will destroy our great nation.

By the way, the word "communism" keeps being bantered around. I've never advocated communism and never will.

I will say that communism, and unbridled capitalism all lead to the same thing: all of the power and the wealth in the hands of the very few. I have not seen much compassion demonstrated on the part of President Bush towards the average American. Don't give me the 9-11 attack. He acted to cover the large corporations' rear ends not for the people. I'm sure some of you think that I lack respect for George W. because he is a Republican. You're wrong. I could have been happy with John McCain as President because I beleive he is an honest man who would have tried his best to do the right things for America. He would have been the Republican nominee, if the rich powers that be in the Republican Party had not jumped in and ran their puppet George W. Yes, I see him as a self-serving detached president. Cheney and Rove run the show while Dubya works short days and goes on lengthy vacations. He was entrusted with the awsome responsibilty of overseeing our nation and he doesn't even care enough to be actively involved. Yes, I see him as evil. Not because he is a conservative, but because he just doesn't care about America enough to even try to do his job.
Just as when Reagan was in office, we have no true president. Others around him call the shots. This is scary to me. I didn't agree with many of the things that Pres. George, Sr. Bush did, but I could respect him for actually being the president. Some of you just blindly follow as his adm. leads us farther down the path to destruction.

By the way, I also hear conservatives wanting tax cuts. Someone has got to pay for the war in Iraq sooner or later. Dubya can give tax cuts and run up the deficit, but sooner or later we are all going to be paying for it. Our economy is awful and our society unstable and yet too many refuse to admit it let alone try to address the issues. No, I don't have all of the answers, but some Christian compassion for one another as US citizens would be a great place to start.

If anyone wants to post an intelligent logical reply, I welcome it. Maybe I'll even learn something. For those of you who can only get angry and jump to rediculous conclusions: GROW UP! Go read some history books and then go to church.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Wully - now you went and angered me! You stuck your two cents in were it didn't belong!!! Now I see that you are just a tough guy behind a keyboard, probably just like the tough guys behind the wheel of a car as they know they can speed away!! Were you from because I am officially after you now!:firing:

Well scare me!

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by for the people

By the way, I also hear conservatives wanting tax cuts. Someone has got to pay for the war in Iraq sooner or later. Dubya can give tax cuts and run up the deficit, but sooner or later we are all going to be paying for it

Check out this thread on the Laffer Curve, how tax rates affect total tax revenue.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by jimnyc
And I think you're a bedpan sniffing liar. Making this kind of stuff up is pathetic, loser.

You've obviously forgotten your anti-psychotics this morning. The voices in your head are getting a little too loud, aren't they?

 

[Avatar4321]

You have argued that sometimes it is necessary to support regimes that we do not like to further our US causes. I have never said that we don't have to pick and choose our battles wisely or that war is never necessary. I was pointing out that you had stated that we were out building free nations and then turned around and said that we sometimes have to act in our own best interests.

building free nations is our own best interest. We have to work with what we have though. If we have to deal with an evil totalitarian regime its sometimes necessary to deal with less evil dictatorships to accomplish this. I dont see how hard this is to understand. It would be stupid to invade every single non democracy in the world at once. Start with some of the worst and work from there. why you seem to think its somehow contradictory is beyond me.