The Palestinian Emirates "Solution"

[Sixties Fan]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

 

[Coyote]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history. Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them. It doesn’t have to be either or.

 

[Sixties Fan]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history. Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them. It doesn’t have to be either or.

Unfortunately the genetics you choose to believe in is a fallible one. It has been posted, if you choose to post the link for it, by many of those who deny that the European Jews are Jews.

It is one of the tools used to delegitimize, erase and appropriate who are the Jewish People in order to one day destroy Israel.

Post the link for the genetics you have said you believe in, please.

 

[danielpalos]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history. Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them. It doesn’t have to be either or.

Unfortunately the genetics you choose to believe in is a fallible one. It has been posted, if you choose to post the link for it, by many of those who deny that the European Jews are Jews.

It is one of the tools used to delegitimize, erase and appropriate who are the Jewish People in order to one day destroy Israel.

Post the link for the genetics you have said you believe in, please.

Consider it from an "outside perspective"; why do Israelis have a State and Judeans keep getting the blame?

 

[flacaltenn]

The government which they elected

That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed..

It's their problem.

It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper". Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps.

Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.

You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts. NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it.

Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.

It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever. The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.

 

[rylah]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history. Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them. It doesn’t have to be either or.

Ok let me just politely suggest, that we should leave this kind of exchange entirely to the people directly involved.

There're many understandings going on on a level that westerners simply don't appreciate in their polite pc frame of political discourse.
But that's not a reason not to continue this conversation about the Emirates, we can simply leave out the conversation about who belongs and who doesn't...well until we get a Jew and a Palestinian Arab on board.

Let's be more practical.

 

[rylah]

A Deylicate could ensure Order over Chaos, every time this issue comes up; that is what they are Good for.

Palestinian society and politics are strongly based on family and tribal relations.
I think a Dey is an unfamiliar position for the majority of Arabs in Asia.

The Emirate idea is not about creating new institutions but working with the natural representatives of the society, creating solid connections with the natural leaders of the community who have the authority on the ground within each city- those are traditionally Sheikhs and Emirs.

That is what intrigues me about the idea. We t end to assume that western style institutions are the only answers, with out regard to the cultures and traditions of the people effected. One thing for sure...Palestinians have had a scarcity of representative leadership and an over abundance of corruption, and yet they are faced with the demand that ther e must be one voice speaking for them as a unified whole. Maybe that is not the answer. Maybe Gaza and WB should be negotiated with as seperate entities for examp,e. Maybe this insistence that there be one voice speaking for all is actually hindering progress towards peace.

I think this is the most natural way to look at the situation.
Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

What is also a natural truth is that although there might much more agreement between the cities than with the current govt, still the transition is not a smooth process, billions generated on ideology that no matter how there can never be any normalization.

Agreement with Palestinian Arabs is a function of a wider agreement with Arab neighbors, not the other way around.And the Emirate solution is a symptom of this process, a change of vocabulary.

I like flacaltenn's idea about building a road. And I think it's symbolic of the wider process that goes in the neighborhood that should be welcomed for the sake of progress and wellbeing of the whole region.

 

[flacaltenn]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The government which they elected

That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed..

It's their problem.

It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper". Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps.

Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.

You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts. NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it.

Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.

It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever. The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.

The Palestinians did elect a government that was the model for the ME. The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

It was too good for the US so they had a coup that trashed the government to this day.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

Abbas is the division at the behest of the US.

 

[Hollie]

The government which they elected

That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed..

It's their problem.

It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper". Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps.

Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.

You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts. NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it.

Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.

It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever. The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.

The Palestinians did elect a government that was the model for the ME. The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

It was too good for the US so they had a coup that trashed the government to this day.

Such silly conspiracy conspiracies.

Otherwise, Islamic terrorists fighting street battles as part of a civil war with the competing tribe is hardly a model for government.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The government which they elected

That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed..

It's their problem.

It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper". Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps.

Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.

You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts. NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it.

Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.

It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever. The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.

The Palestinians did elect a government that was the model for the ME. The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

It was too good for the US so they had a coup that trashed the government to this day.

Such silly conspiracy conspiracies.

Otherwise, Islamic terrorists fighting street battles as part of a civil war with the competing tribe is hardly a model for government.

 

[Hollie]

The government which they elected

That govt DIED about 10 years ago now. Hasn't been an election since the civil war. The PA is functionly ge-poofed..

It's their problem.

It's EVERY body's problem as long as Israel is "their keeper". Also a problem for Jordan and Egypt and rest of the Palestinian diaspora. Although in most of THOSE countries --- they are captives in camps.

Of course they are. Anyway, who is or who is not their leaders is an internal affair of Palestinians.

You're not getting the entire point of this thread. The ENTIRE fucking world has been waiting for 50 years for them to form to form a govt that LOOKS like any other 21st century central govt. That's NOT their natural organization. Do not understand unity national govts. NEVER HAD ONE. So the world and Israel could wait ANOTHER 50 years and it STILL wouldn't happen. This concept of "city-states" fits more with their natural tendencies and preferences for governance. And --- it's a workable solution if you provide the connectivity and infrastructure for them to trade and travel and interact with other nations how THEY choose to do it.

Exactly as long as Palestinians deny Israeli security and national interests. I suppose it will be very long.

It's not in the interests of ANY of the parties to extend this bad situation ANOTHER 50 years. If Israel wants to play to up to the bad press and accusations of abuse, it harms Israel forever. The best solutions are to preserve Pali enclaves, have Jordan and Egypt (primarily) kick in some additional land in exchange for emptying their horrid camps and CONNECT ALL THIS with a trade and travel corridor that is MINIMAL interference and risk to Israel's security.

The Palestinians did elect a government that was the model for the ME. The elections were judged free and fair by all international observers.

It was too good for the US so they had a coup that trashed the government to this day.

Such silly conspiracy conspiracies.

Otherwise, Islamic terrorists fighting street battles as part of a civil war with the competing tribe is hardly a model for government.

I expected as much. I had low expectations for a reasoned response.

The term democracy, and slogans like “a model for the ME”, like any other word(s) thrown around carelessly, can sometimes lose all resemblance to its original, intrinsic meaning. Nowhere is this more evident than in the abnormal of the Islamist Middle East, where armed terrorists are allowed to roam the streets, genocidal jihad groups participate in governance, and "elections" are made into a mockery by both.

 

[Coyote]

This thread is about a specific idea, please do not derail it.

 

[rylah]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

We basically agree, the Emirate solution is exactly based on letting more Palestinian voices have a say about their relations with Israel.

The Emirate notion is exactly giving voice to a wider variety of authorities in the Arab society than the 2 warring fractions, we wouldn't be talking about Emirates if those voices weren't heard.
However I have a reservation regarding the view that any further agreements are a function of a wide multi-party agreement, I see a need in approaching each local clan confederation and establish separate agreements with each city state.

This allows more flexibility with cities who do support normalization, and gives them more opportunities independent from the centralized govt that strives on conflict.

 

[USAF 2023]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

What is there to “disagree” with about historical fact?

I have seen nothing indicating that the so-called Palestinians (who are really trans-Jordanian Bedouin’s) don’t support hamas. Not have I seen anything indicating they want peace (or they would have taken the deal when Arafat was alive that gave them 98% of what they wanted.)

That said it’s not a bad idea. They just would never agree to any deal that doesn’t kill Israel. And that isn’t going to happen.

The Palestinians are not Bedouin, the Bedouin are Bedouin. The Palestinians are a blend of people’s including those who have been there as long as the Jews at least according to genetic research.

There has long been broad Palestinian support for a two state solution, two sovereign states. It has eroded some however.

You clearly do not know what Arabs are, who the Palestinians are.

The genetics you believe in is for people like yourself who wish to believe that there are people amongst the Palestinians going as far back as 10,000 years ago, or longer......as the Arabs keep changing how long they have been living in the ancient land of Canaan. Some now even attempting to make the Arabs be the Jewish People of the Torah.

The Arab leaders never had a support for a two state solution.
Just ask the Arab League which was formed to fight any attempts by the Jews to have a sovereign country of their own on their own ancestral Jewish land. What was left of it after England gave 78% of it (TranJordan) to the Arab Hashemites.

The only two state solution they have ever agreed to has been one where Arab Muslims are the sovereign people on both.

The two state solution eroded in the Arab refusal to having a Jewish State next to it in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008, and many other times. And continues to do so.

Read the PLO, Hamas, Fatah charters, and find us one sentence which proves that the Arabs are only looking to have a second State for the Palestinians in Gaza and the PA areas of Judea and Samaria.

I tend to view things scientifically and genetics is more accurate then highly charged partisan narratives each claiming the other is not valid.

I don’t agree with Arab attempt to erase or appropriate Jewish history any more than I agree with attempts to deny Palestinians a right to their history. Both are nothing more then a means to portray them as invaders and disenfranchise them. It doesn’t have to be either or.

The Arabs are trying their best to erase Jewish History. One small example? They have already stated the Israelis have no Right to the Western Wall and it is NOT a part of Jewish History

 

[P F Tinmore]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

We basically agree, the Emirate solution is exactly based on letting more Palestinian voices have a say about their relations with Israel.

The Emirate notion is exactly giving voice to a wider variety of authorities in the Arab society than the 2 warring fractions, we wouldn't be talking about Emirates if those voices weren't heard.
However I have a reservation regarding the view that any further agreements are a function of a wide multi-party agreement, I see a need in approaching each local clan confederation and establish separate agreements with each city state.

This allows more flexibility with cities who do support normalization, and gives them more opportunities independent from the centralized govt that strives on conflict.

Life will be great on the Rez!

 

[rylah]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

We basically agree, the Emirate solution is exactly based on letting more Palestinian voices have a say about their relations with Israel.

The Emirate notion is exactly giving voice to a wider variety of authorities in the Arab society than the 2 warring fractions, we wouldn't be talking about Emirates if those voices weren't heard.
However I have a reservation regarding the view that any further agreements are a function of a wide multi-party agreement, I see a need in approaching each local clan confederation and establish separate agreements with each city state.

This allows more flexibility with cities who do support normalization, and gives them more opportunities independent from the centralized govt that strives on conflict.

Life will be great on the Rez!

If anything Israel is the reservation You ignorant idiot, Arabs can and do live anywhere in the middle east.

 

[USAF 2023]

Currently none of the sides on the political spectrum can sign anything in the name of all Palestinian Arabs, and it's a big question if they ever could using the frame and vocabulary that was used in the past. It's a big farce, we've been negotiating with the wrong people all this time.

THAT is what you got the "winner" for. Its an unnatural position to put Palestinians into that demands they appoint any kind of "unity" govt. If there's to be agreements and peace negotiations -- the negotiations have to have a "multi-party" Palestinian representation. The only way to get that many different "opinions" focused --- is to offer them something of value that they would stupid to refuse. And get SOME of the parties to buy in and prosper and thrive. The others will eventually come around.

We basically agree, the Emirate solution is exactly based on letting more Palestinian voices have a say about their relations with Israel.

The Emirate notion is exactly giving voice to a wider variety of authorities in the Arab society than the 2 warring fractions, we wouldn't be talking about Emirates if those voices weren't heard.
However I have a reservation regarding the view that any further agreements are a function of a wide multi-party agreement, I see a need in approaching each local clan confederation and establish separate agreements with each city state.

This allows more flexibility with cities who do support normalization, and gives them more opportunities independent from the centralized govt that strives on conflict.

Life will be great on the Rez!

If anything Israel is the reservation You ignorant idiot, Arabs can and do live anywhere in the middle east.

What other answer would you expect from a Kool Aid Pro Palestinian drinker who does not respond to Abbas stating there shall be not one single Israeli in “ Palestine?” The “ Two State Solution” is DOA !!

 

[danielpalos]

We have had discussions on two-state, three-state and one-state "solutions" - this is a new one that has not had a discussion devoted to it. Thank you rylah for bringing it up.

The link is: Palestinian Emirates Introduction

The idea is fascinating. I disagree with some of his historic preamble...but that is neither hear nor there.

Some of the points he makes are valid imo. The non-nationalist loyalties of the Palestinian's themselves that is also reflective of the Arab culture surrounding them in general - stronger loyalties to family, tribe and locale than to a "nation". This is evident in the high degree of corruption in the ruling parties. A more local governance might be more effective. There was a day when city-states were common - before the idea of nation states came into being. This might be a viable answer.

My one major concern is this. Dr. Kedar makes a point that no Jewish families should be forced to move (as would happen in a two-state solution) - but, in this solution - neither should any Palestinian families. Their right to remain where they are must be preserved.

What are your thoughts on this?

In my opinion, a Deylicate would already have initiatives in progress. What objection can there be to a Dey.

Conflict in the Middle East is becoming a Proverb. There are plenty of emirs.