The Palestine Solution

[Shusha]

What makes the English different from the Scottish? What makes Americans different from Canadians? Why do they need different states?

Clearly you are neither Scots nor Canadian. Or you would not be asking such a question. (Yes, I am both)

 

[Coyote]

What makes the English different from the Scottish? What makes Americans different from Canadians? Why do they need different states?

Clearly you are neither Scots nor Canadian. Or you would not be asking such a question. (Yes, I am both)

I am not, but you just made my point.

Cultures and people that seem superficially similar aren't - or at least they do not see themselves as such.

Kind of cool you are both

 

[Shusha]

So...the argument seems to be headed towards:

Israel should get the whole enchilada.
The Palestinians should go to Jordan.

Not at all. Again, I am supporting the self-determination of the Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the Arab demands need to have an end point.

 

[Shusha]

What makes the English different from the Scottish? What makes Americans different from Canadians? Why do they need different states?

Clearly you are neither Scots nor Canadian. Or you would not be asking such a question. (Yes, I am both)

I am not, but you just made my point.

Cultures and people that seem superficially similar aren't - or at least they do not see themselves as such.

Kind of cool you are both

I hardly made your point. I actually can provide a list of cultural differences between Scots and English. My point was rather that they are rather obvious. Can you provide same for Jordanian and Palestinian?

 

[Coyote]

So...the argument seems to be headed towards:

Israel should get the whole enchilada.
The Palestinians should go to Jordan.

Not at all. Again, I am supporting the self-determination of the Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the Arab demands need to have an end point.

I agree. Both sides need to have an endpoint.

I think the right of return needs to be given up for example.

 

[Coyote]

What makes the English different from the Scottish? What makes Americans different from Canadians? Why do they need different states?

Clearly you are neither Scots nor Canadian. Or you would not be asking such a question. (Yes, I am both)

I am not, but you just made my point.

Cultures and people that seem superficially similar aren't - or at least they do not see themselves as such.

Kind of cool you are both

I hardly made your point. I actually can provide a list of cultural differences between Scots and English. Can you provide same for Jordanian and Palestinian?

I bet a Palestinian could.

What extensive list of cultural differences would there be between Americans and Canadians? Same language, same ethnic heritage, same religions, same costumes...

 

[Shusha]

I don't think Israel has assigned borders either...just saying.

I would argue against that. Israel has borders, in law. Israel has chosen (quite generously and in pursuit of peace) not to exercise her rights in order to allow space for the Palestinian people.

 

[montelatici]

All the Palestinians asked for was independence. The West denied them independence and transferred a large population of European colonists to the land where they lived on that evicted them from more than half of land that they owned. For decades they asked for independence on a small portion of the land they formerly lived on, and still it was denied. Then the Jews began settling under force of arms on what was left of the land they lived on and the Israeli leader stated there would never be a sovereign state for them. What do you propose they do?

 

[Shusha]

So...the argument seems to be headed towards:

Israel should get the whole enchilada.
The Palestinians should go to Jordan.

Not at all. Again, I am supporting the self-determination of the Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the Arab demands need to have an end point.

I agree. Both sides need to have an endpoint.

I think the right of return needs to be given up for example.

See, again, I disagree. The right of return belongs to the Palestinians. They just deserve to have it in the place which will allow them to develop their own vision. And not in a place which serves only to disrupt and destroy the vision of the other people in the region.

 

[Coyote]

I don't think Israel has assigned borders either...just saying.

I would argue against that. Israel has borders, in law. Israel has chosen (quite generously and in pursuit of peace) not to exercise her rights in order to allow space for the Palestinian people.

I would disagree. I think Israel hasn't "exercised her rights" because those "rights" are not at all legally clear and there are complex issues at stake. I don't think it has anything to do with allowing space for the Palestinian people.

 

[Coyote]

So...the argument seems to be headed towards:

Israel should get the whole enchilada.
The Palestinians should go to Jordan.

Not at all. Again, I am supporting the self-determination of the Palestinians. I'm just pointing out that the Arab demands need to have an end point.

I agree. Both sides need to have an endpoint.

I think the right of return needs to be given up for example.

See, again, I disagree. The right of return belongs to the Palestinians. They just deserve to have it in the place which will allow them to develop their own vision. And not in a place which serves only to disrupt and destroy the vision of the other people in the region.

It wouldn't be a "right of return" if it wasn't to where they had been displaced from.

 

[Shusha]

What do you propose they do?

Stop attacking. Negotiate a peace. Accept a neighbor Jewish State. Share the land. What is so hard about that?

 

[Coyote]

Unfortunately...it's way way too late at my end and I have to wake up in 6 hours. Will be back later

 

[Shusha]

Most Gazans don't want to be blockaded by Jews.

Sure. So the easiest and quickest way out of a military blockade is to stop being a belligerent who fires indiscriminate, illegal weapons at innocents. So why hasn't Gaza stopped doing this?

 

[Shusha]

There is little difference between Israeli use of modern US weapons to murder thousands of Palestinian women and children on a regular basis and ISIS. It's just the sophistication of the weapon.

Bullshit.

There is all the difference in the world between the ideology of the Jewish people who are defending themselves against those who actively seek our destruction and ISIS who actively and aggressively seek to remake the world to their specifications.

 

[Shusha]

I bet a Palestinian could.

What extensive list of cultural differences would there be between Americans and Canadians? Same language, same ethnic heritage, same religions, same costumes...

I bet a Palestinian couldn't.

The basis for American and Canadian sovereignty are not based on being indigenous.

 

[Shusha]

It wouldn't be a "right of return" if it wasn't to where they had been displaced from.

But the place that they are being displaced from is not a pre-existing, national entity. It is a territory in the process of splitting between two over-lapping claims to sovereignty. Each claim to sovereignty is a claim to self-determination for THAT group. Thus, those "returning", or even, frankly, those staying, SHOULD be a part of the sovereignty of those with whom they self-identify and who accept them as their own. Therefore, theoretically, ALL the Arab, Muslim Palestinians should be participants of their right to self-determination in a State of Palestine and all the Jewish people should be participants of their right to self-determination in Israel. In separate, sovereign States.

 

[Shusha]

So...because they choose not exercise that "right" the Palestinians should be made to suffer?

I'm sorry. Where did I say that the Palestinians should be made to suffer? I seem to have missed that post that I supposedly wrote.

And no, the argument that there should be States for the Jewish people in all the ME States is not a stupid argument. Take a look at it. What gives the Arab Muslim Palestinian people the right to self-determination in "Palestine"? Most people on the anti-Israel side would argue that they have that right due to a long-standing community in that territory. Well, the Jewish people also have long-standing, historical communities in the territories in question. Why should they not ALSO be able to exercise their right to sovereign self-determination in territories where they have had long term residence?

 

[P F Tinmore]

They are from two different countries. Jordanians lived in Jordan. Palestinians lived in Palestine.

Seriously? Jordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine. It was part of Palestine. It was partitioned from Palestine. There was no place called Jordan.

Mandates were temporarily assigned administrations. They had no authority to change residence or demographics.

 

[P F Tinmore]

So...because they choose not exercise that "right" the Palestinians should be made to suffer?

I'm sorry. Where did I say that the Palestinians should be made to suffer? I seem to have missed that post that I supposedly wrote.

And no, the argument that there should be States for the Jewish people in all the ME States is not a stupid argument. Take a look at it. What gives the Arab Muslim Palestinian people the right to self-determination in "Palestine"? Most people on the anti-Israel side would argue that they have that right due to a long-standing community in that territory. Well, the Jewish people also have long-standing, historical communities in the territories in question. Why should they not ALSO be able to exercise their right to sovereign self-determination in territories where they have had long term residence?

What gives the Arab Muslim Palestinian people the right to self-determination in "Palestine"?​

Palestinians do not have the right to self determination in Palestine?

Do you have a link to that?