The Palestine Solution

[Indeependent]

I agree that that view is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israeli's and the majority of Israeli society condemns such actoins, but the Israeli's are not totally innocent either.

Never did I say that either all Jews or all Israelis are totally innocent. But we agree that "that view" is far more prevalent among Palestinians than Israelis (Jews) and that the majority of Israeli society condemns such actions (in contrast to the majority of Palestinian society which celebrates such actions. That was my entire point and you agree with me.

Explain to me please why carrying a ten pound bomb into a building is terrorism and dropping a 2000 pound bomb from an airplane is not.

It's not terrorism when people are warned a day in advance to clear the area before being bombed.
Any more of your recursive bullshit?

The people of Sderot knew in advance that they were going to get rockets.

What is your point.

So did Hamas.
Just because Israeli rockets actually hit their targets isn't my problem.

 

[Shusha]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[QUOTE="Coyote, post: 13184836, member: 19170"
When people make the argument that the Palestinians already have a state (ie Jordan) it's nothing more than a transparent attempt to disenfranchise them.

No. Its not. The Mandate for Palestine consisted of a specific geographical location. It was partitioned into two sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Now, there is the demand that it be partitioned into two more sections -- one intended to be under Gazan Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one intended to be under Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty.

Next there will be a demand for it to be partitioned into two more sections -- one for Nazarene Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty and one for Jewish (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Haifa Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. And then Negev Arab (Palestinian) sovereignty. Sooner or later it has to stop. Sooner or later people have to recognize that some land must be for the Jewish people.



What makes Jordanians different from Palestinians? They share the same language, same religion, same culture, same laws, same mode of dress, same foods. Why are Palestinians deserving of yet another State?[/QUOTE]

What makes Jordanians different from Palestinians?​

They are from two different countries. Jordanians lived in Jordan. Palestinians lived in Palestine.

 

[montelatici]

So, if as you claim, it is Israeli territory, then give the inhabitants the right to vote instead of maintaining an Apartheid regime.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

It is Palestinian territory.

 

[Shusha]

Agree - but where is that demand being made?

There's no double standard. Are those Jewish people calling for a right of return? If so - I have heard nothing of it. If they haven't - then how can you call it a "double standard" when they haven't made a claim? If they make a claim - I would support it to the same extent I do the Palestinian claims.

The demand is being made every time someone states that the "settlements" (read: places where Jews live) be emptied of Jews as a precondition to negotiation. The demand is being made every time someone says that no "settlements" (read: Jews) may exist on land that may someday be part of a new State of Palestine. The demands are made every time someone says that the "settlements" (read: Jewish homes) are a barrier to peace.

The Jewish people are not calling for a right of return -- even though they clearly have that right. BECAUSE THEY WILL BE KILLED IF THEY EXERCISE THAT RIGHT. Duh. Seriously. And further, are you agreeing that there should be a Jewish State for every single Arab State in the area? A Jewish State carved out of Jordan? Another carved out of Syria? Another out of Lebanon? Another out of Iraq? How about Morocco? Or Yemen? Egypt? Algeria? Tunisia? Should ALL of the ME States which had substantial Jewish communities have a Jewish State carved from them? You would support that? A dozen new Jewish States?

 

[Shusha]

For one, I think Hamas has failed them and they have not held elections since Hamas took over.

For another....there may not be a border dispute, but Israel still controlled much of Gaza - they control their airspace, coastline, border crossing etc.

Well, duh, Hamas has failed them.

But you have failed, AGAIN, to answer my question. WHAT IS THEGOAL? Sorry for yelling, but this is getting tiresome. Israel has blockaded Gaza because of the belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks being made by Gaza's government and people against innocent Israelis. What do Gazans want? What is their goal?

Please, for the love of all that is holy, will someone answer this question?

 

[Indeependent]

For one, I think Hamas has failed them and they have not held elections since Hamas took over.

For another....there may not be a border dispute, but Israel still controlled much of Gaza - they control their airspace, coastline, border crossing etc.

Well, duh, Hamas has failed them.

But you have failed, AGAIN, to answer my question. WHAT IS THEGOAL? Sorry for yelling, but this is getting tiresome. Israel has blockaded Gaza because of the belligerent, indiscriminate, illegal attacks being made by Gaza's government and people against innocent Israelis. What do Gazans want? What is their goal?

Please, for the love of all that is holy, will someone answer this question?

Most Gazans probably want to live in peace but the Arabs with the weapons don't want that.

 

[montelatici]

Most Gazans don't want to be blockaded by Jews.

 

[Coyote]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

Palestinian.

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indeependent]

Most Gazans don't want to be blockaded by Jews.

It depends on what's being blockaded.

 

[Shusha]

... the disgusting blood thirsty Jewish killers with their culture of violence ...

Oh please, really? I'd put my Jewish culture up against Arab Muslim culture any day. Did you want to start with the stabbing attacks against innocent Israeli citizens? Or with the ISIS beheadings? Or with the rocket attacks? Or with the slavery and rape of girl children? Or the murder of apostates? Or the rights of women? Or the rights of those in non-cis relationships?

Give me a break.

 

[Shusha]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

Palestinian.

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no State of Palestine. There is no treaty which assigns sovereignty of land to a State of Palestine. There are no assigned borders to the non-existent State of Palestine which denotes which land is Palestinian and which land is Israeli.

Try again.

 

[montelatici]

There is little difference between Israeli use of modern US weapons to murder thousands of Palestinian women and children on a regular basis and ISIS. It's just the sophistication of the weapon.

 

[Coyote]

Agree - but where is that demand being made?

There's no double standard. Are those Jewish people calling for a right of return? If so - I have heard nothing of it. If they haven't - then how can you call it a "double standard" when they haven't made a claim? If they make a claim - I would support it to the same extent I do the Palestinian claims.

The demand is being made every time someone states that the "settlements" (read: places where Jews live) be emptied of Jews as a precondition to negotiation. The demand is being made every time someone says that no "settlements" (read: Jews) may exist on land that may someday be part of a new State of Palestine. The demands are made every time someone says that the "settlements" (read: Jewish homes) are a barrier to peace.

No. No demand has been made for a right of return. Are those people in the settlements the original people who were driven off? Are the people driven off demanding the right of return? Are they even the direct progeny?

From my perspective at this point in time - the right of return for the Palestinians is not going to happen. It's not feasible demographically and too much time has passed. Why should Jews be treated any differently?

The Jewish people are not calling for a right of return -- even though they clearly have that right. BECAUSE THEY WILL BE KILLED IF THEY EXERCISE THAT RIGHT. Duh. Seriously.

So...because they choose not exercise that "right" the Palestinians should be made to suffer?

And further, are you agreeing that there should be a Jewish State for every single Arab State in the area?

That's a really stupid argument. As if every Arab state is the same. Is every European state the same?
What's this equal number of states crap? Wait - we don't have a Druze state, nor do we have a Kurdish state - shouldn't there be an equal number of those?

A Jewish State carved out of Jordan? Another carved out of Syria? Another out of Lebanon? Another out of Iraq? How about Morocco? Or Yemen? Egypt? Algeria? Tunisia? Should ALL of the ME States which had substantial Jewish communities have a Jewish State carved from them? You would support that? A dozen new Jewish States?

Totally. Stupid. Argument.

 

[montelatici]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

Palestinian.

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no State of Palestine. There is no treaty which assigns sovereignty of land to a State of Palestine. There are no assigned borders to the non-existent State of Palestine which denotes which land is Palestinian and which land is Israeli.

Try again.

You are right, there is just Israel that practices Apartheid and does not enfranchise the people under its control.

 

[Coyote]

What makes Jordanians different from Palestinians? They share the same language, same religion, same culture, same laws, same mode of dress, same foods. Why are Palestinians deserving of yet another State?

What makes the English different from the Scottish? What makes Americans different from Canadians? Why do they need different states?

 

[Coyote]

I disagree - they are illegal because they are built on Occupied Territory, and that is under international law.

Occupied Territory? All capitalized and trademarked. See if you can answer the question NO ONE has been able to answer: who's territory is it? And under what law or treaty did it come under the sovereignty of that State.

You are just parroting "what everyone knows" as though the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum has validity in international law.

Palestinian.

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is no State of Palestine. There is no treaty which assigns sovereignty of land to a State of Palestine. There are no assigned borders to the non-existent State of Palestine which denotes which land is Palestinian and which land is Israeli.

Try again.

I don't think Israel has assigned borders either...just saying.

 

[Shusha]

They are from two different countries. Jordanians lived in Jordan. Palestinians lived in Palestine.

Seriously? Jordan was part of the Mandate for Palestine. It was part of Palestine. It was partitioned from Palestine. There was no place called Jordan.

 

[Coyote]

So...the argument seems to be headed towards:

Israel should get the whole enchilada.
The Palestinians should go to Jordan.