The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Hollie]

First of all I don't understand what land treaty are You looking for, between Jews and Israel?

That's not what H.Grief presents, basically I think he summed it up in the end:
Sovereignty was transferred to the Jewish nation over all of Palestine in 2 steps:
tire 1 - From the defeated Central Powers to the Principled Allied Powers at the end of WW!
tire 2 - At the San Remo conference that sovereignty was then devolved to each national beneficiaries of the Mandates. Palestine was a class A Mandate together with Iraq and Syria.

The sovereignty was vested with the Jewish people from April 24 1920 at San Remo Conference, combined with art.22 of the League of Nations the two together formed sovereignty over Palestine, and that was given to the Jewish nation.

The sovereignty was vested with the Jewish people from April 24 1920 at San Remo Conference,

Where did it say that?

In the part where it incorporates the Balfour Declaration, and converts it into a binding act of international law:

San Remo Resolution – 25 April 1920

It was agreed –

(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end.

(b) that the terms of the Mandates Article should be as follows:

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States, subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The boundaries of the said States will be determined, and the selection of the Mandatories made, by the Principal Allied Powers.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;

Indeed.

It was the rights of Jews to live in Gaza, TransJordan, Hebron, all of Judea and Samaria, and the Jewish Quarter (mark the name of the Quarter) which were forcefully surrendered by the Jews by many attacks from 1920 to 1948.

Your "indeed" is beyond meaningless when faced with what actually happened between those years.

All of those attacks happened after the Zionist invasion.

There was no Zionist invasion. Why do you use pointless slogans?

 

[rylah]

This clown thinks that San Remo was a land treaty.

First of all I don't understand what land treaty are You looking for, between Jews and Israel?

That's not what H.Grief presents, basically I think he summed it up in the end:
Sovereignty was transferred to the Jewish nation over all of Palestine in 2 steps:
tire 1 - From the defeated Central Powers to the Principled Allied Powers at the end of WW!
tire 2 - At the San Remo conference that sovereignty was then devolved to each national beneficiaries of the Mandates. Palestine was a class A Mandate together with Iraq and Syria.

The sovereignty was vested with the Jewish people from April 24 1920 at San Remo Conference, combined with art.22 of the League of Nations the two together formed sovereignty over Palestine, and that was given to the Jewish nation.

The sovereignty was vested with the Jewish people from April 24 1920 at San Remo Conference,

Where did it say that?

In the part where it incorporates the Balfour Declaration, and converts it into a binding act of international law:

San Remo Resolution – 25 April 1920

It was agreed –

(a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end.

(b) that the terms of the Mandates Article should be as follows:

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States, subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The boundaries of the said States will be determined, and the selection of the Mandatories made, by the Principal Allied Powers.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine;

Indeed.

Is this an argument against the fact that the sovereignty over all of Palestine was vested with the Jewish nation?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Israel, the never-ending Dreyfus Affair, Part I

Israel: The never-ending Dreyfus affair, part II

 

[watchingfromafar]

It was the rights of Jews to live in Gaza, TransJordan, Hebron, all of Judea and Samaria, and the Jewish Quarter (mark the name of the Quarter) which were forcefully surrendered by the Jews by many attacks from 1920 to 1948.

Yes, I have found lots of evidence showing the Zionists throwing bombs into public buses, assassinating people and many other "terrorist" acts way before the term "terrorism" was a term used by the day to day press. Their actions practically invented these kinds of acts we now associate with "terrorism".

 

[watchingfromafar]

Is this an argument against the fact that the sovereignty over all of Palestine was vested with the Jewish nation?

There was never a "Jewish Nation" before 1947. The only reason the UN reluctantly agreed to the formation of a "Jewish State" was the hope that the Zionists living in Europe and the America's would move to this new found land and leave them alone. Sadly the UN did not consider the plight that would be placed on the indigenous Palestinian population.

And Netanyahu's claim that this is a "Jewish Nation" proves that Netanyahu was lying when he proclaimed that Israel was the only "secular" state in the middle east.

A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularism, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1] A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion

But I must add, I am getting used to Leaders lying. Trump is the best con artist out there but Netanyahu's lying brings him in at a close second place.

Such is life

 

[watchingfromafar]

There was no Zionist invasion. Why do you use pointless slogans?

Hollie, if the truth hurts just keep on lying to yourself and maybe your guilt will just fade away?

 

[rylah]

There was never a "Jewish Nation" before 1947. The only reason the UN reluctantly agreed to the formation of a "Jewish State" was the hope that the Zionists living in Europe and the America's would move to this new found land and leave them alone. Sadly the UN did not consider the plight that would be placed on the indigenous Palestinian population.

The Jewish nation is the indigenous population, it has existed in the land for 4 millenias:

Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‬ ISO 259-3 Yehudim, Israeli pronunciation [jehuˈdim]) or Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group[10] and a nation[11][12][13] originating from the Israelites,[14][15][16] or Hebrews,[17][18] of the Ancient Near East. Jewish ethnicity, nationhood, and religion are strongly interrelated,[19] as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish people, while its observance varies from strict observance to complete nonobservance.

Jews - Wikipedia

Intuition tells me Your argument is more on the theological side rather than state sovereignty in modern terms. However the fact remains: the status of the Jewish nation and its' natural historical connection to the land was recognized when the sovereignty over all of Palestine was vested with the Jewish Nation by an act of international law (see post #2717)

 

[rylah]

And Netanyahu's claim that this is a "Jewish Nation" proves that Netanyahu was lying when he proclaimed that Israel was the only "secular" state in the middle east.

A secular state is an idea pertaining to secularism, whereby a state is or purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[1] A secular state also claims to treat all its citizens equally regardless of religion

But I must add, I am getting used to Leaders lying. Trump is the best con artist out there but Netanyahu's lying brings him in at a close second place.

Such is life

I remember Netanyahu stating that Israel is the only real democracy in the middle east, not that Israel is the most secular state.

Israel is definitely not a secular state, I would go as far and say that nothing about Israel can really be secular because of the main theme of this nation history. C. G. Jung would view it in terms of main Archetype of the Collective Unconscious, and its' influence on communication between nations.

Said that, I don't see how Israel doesn't fit all those conditions in Your quote. If a nations' philosophy and religious law allows for the nation to choose a secular conduct and govt, then there's no contradiction.
I would also add that terms like "secularism", "religion" are not fit to measure eastern traditions. What could be viewed by a westerner as secularism can be viewed as pure religious ritual in the eyes of eastern traditions. What may be viewed as religion by eastern traditions, may have become an integral part of western philosophy, yet is called secularism in the west.

 

[Hollie]

There was no Zionist invasion. Why do you use pointless slogans?

Hollie, if the truth hurts just keep on lying to yourself and maybe your guilt will just fade away?

I have no sense of guilt about challenging those who repeat silly slogans. I also have no doubt you will sidestep and evade when tasked with supporting your “twoof” about some alleged Zionist Invasion you and others like to rattle on about.

 

[watchingfromafar]

Intuition tells me Your argument is more on the theological side rather than state sovereignty in modern terms.

Call it what you may but Israel was a person not a place and there was never a land call "Israel" until 1948 ad

 

[watchingfromafar]

Israel is definitely not a secular state, I would go as far and say that nothing about Israel can really be secular because of the main theme of this nation history.

You are speaking with a forked tongue.
not a secular state is the opposite of Israel can really be secular because

I believe this is called double speak; a con artists tool of choice

in my opinion

 

[watchingfromafar]

Jewish nation and its' natural historical connection to the land was recognized when the sovereignty over all of Palestine was vested with the Jewish Nation by an act of international law

At least you recognized that the true name of the land was and will soon return to "Palestine"

 

[Shusha]

Intuition tells me Your argument is more on the theological side rather than state sovereignty in modern terms.

Call it what you may but Israel was a person not a place and there was never a land call "Israel" until 1948 ad

Um. Not true. But also so what?

Are new nations not permitted to come into being? That's somewhat problematic for many nations, including "Palestine".

 

[watchingfromafar]

Are new nations not permitted to come into being?

Of course they are and they are also permitted to fade into history and never be remembered again

 

[Shusha]

Of course they are and they are also permitted to fade into history and never be remembered again

And you find it ethical to suggest that a peoples who has achieved self-determination and sovereignty on their historical homeland should have it removed from them against their will, and indeed, erased not only from existence, but from memory?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ Shusha, et al,

Well, that is a very good question.

And you find it ethical to suggest that a peoples who has achieved self-determination and sovereignty on their historical homeland should have it removed from them against their will, and indeed, erased not only from existence, but from memory?

(COMMENT)

I don't believe that anyone has a truly good answer to this.

Just My Thought,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

Members of the Maccabi delegation of the Palestine/Eretz Australian Touring Team take the time to pose for photographers, 10 July 1939; back row (no.65): G.Arazi (Manager), S.Ginzburg, Zvi Fooks, A.Schneiderwiese, Peri Neufeld, S.Viner, Gaul Machlis, Egon Polak (Coach/Treasurer), 2nd row: A.Alembik, Avraham Reznik (captain), Menahem Mirimovitch, L.Werner, J.Greenberg, J.Lieberman, front row:


Own Goal! Spectacular Anti-Israel Propaganda Fail



The Haters Still Deserve a World Cup for Stupidity

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Hollie]

A collection of random clips assembled into a propaganda video intended for the gullible.

Congratulations. You're among the gullible.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Charles de Gaulle and David Ben Gurion’s Defense of Israel