The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Challenger]

Kinda throws a wrench into all this diatribe about Arab Muslims being indigenous to the Canaan valley area. Whoops, there's that term again ;--) did you ever look up just where they valley is and its relation to the mandated area ?

Comprehension not your strongpoint is it? I'll write it once again, slowly for you. There is no evidence that the indigenous people of the area called Palestine were ever displaced in any significant numbers by the Arab conquerors. Arab nobles/chieftains took over vacant estates left by the Roman nobles who chose to leave rather than pay taxes or convert, the peasantry remained in place. Over the next century or so these people took up Arabic language and customs and voluntarily converted to Islam (mainly to avoid taxes). If you can demonstrate otherwise, please do.

Your funny.

Your argument is nonexistent, you don't provide a single corroborating source and so far everything you've claimed had been demonstrably false. ( through the use of even just basic source material ) so yeah, not feeling any tremendous inclination to simply take your word for it. LOL

That just translates as, "Oh sh*t, I can't demonstrate otherwise, I'd better just try to use the old tactic of making childish accusations and hope this goes away..." another Hasbara fail by Busted1

 

[Boston1]

You are too funny

OK so now you want to consider only one year out of this little imaginary world of yours LOL

Sorry but thats not how it works. If you want to make a baseless claim and pretend that everyone in Israel are immigrants from Europe then you are going to have to back it up with a little more than data from just one year that just happened to be a big year for European returnees.

How about if we consider ALL years to date

The information is readily available

Israel Central Bureau of Statistics

Statistical Abstract of Israel 2009 - No. 60 Subject 2 - Table No. 24

Only about 35% of todays Israeli's can trace their return from Europe.

37% never left and the other 28% returned from all other countries.

So once again your racism depends on lies and misrepresentations

 

[Fishlore]

Although the Sioux people may find the idea of returning to an ancestral homeland appealing, modern government doesn't work that way. The Ashkenazi Zionists who created modern Israel based their activity on Bible stories Lord Balfour learned in Sunday School.

Even if historically accurate, the Torah is no basis for displacement of millions of non-Jewish residents. Add to that the fact that the "history" of Old Testament has been shown to be myth, not fact and the injustice done by European Jews to Palestinians is even more cruel and absurd.

History is filled with injustice, just ask the Sioux people. The big difference between the West Bank and the Great Sious Reservation is that the West Bank is surrounded by 400,000,000 Muslims rich with oil money and armed to the teeth with American weapons.

Nebuchadnezzar booted out the Jews 2,500 years ago. Titus did it again 500 years later. This third attempt to set up a Jewish state in Palestine isn't going to work any better than the last two. God gave the Jews a land of milk and honey in exchange for keeping the Covenant. When the Jews abandoned the Covenant, God cancelled their deed to Palestine. No human power can reverse the Will of God.

 

[Challenger]

You are too funny

OK so now you want to consider only one year out of this little imaginary world of yours LOL

Sorry but thats not how it works. If you want to make a baseless claim and pretend that everyone in Israel are immigrants from Europe then you are going to have to back it up with a little more than data from just one year that just happened to be a big year for European returnees.

How about if we consider ALL years to date

The information is readily available

Israel Central Bureau of Statistics

Statistical Abstract of Israel 2009 - No. 60 Subject 2 - Table No. 24

Only about 35% of todays Israeli's can trace their return from Europe.

37% never left and the other 28% returned from all other countries.

So once again your racism depends on lies and misrepresentations

Do us both a favour and read my posts before answering.

 

[Boston1]

Your posts are full of nonsense. The simple fact remains that only about 35% of returnees to Israel come from Europe.

Your continued efforts to forward revisionist views is disingenuous at best.

 

[Challenger]

Your posts are full of nonsense. The simple fact remains that only about 35% of returnees to Israel come from Europe.

Your continued efforts to forward revisionist views is disingenuous at best.

Fine. I'll leave it to anyone reading this thread to decide for themselves who is being disingenuous, I'm done here.

One interesting snippet of information your link provided though, in 2008 at most there were only 47,500 Jewish "Israelis" who had a father that was born in Israel/Palestine in 1948, the rest were all immigrant colonists.

 

[Boston1]

If you were going to cherry pick you might as well have actually read the graph and gone with the 50-54 age group who only had 19,900 fathers born in Israel. But of course we all know thats not a fair representation of much either particularly when you forgot to mention that in the same time period 94,500 of 174,000 fathers were from the Arab Muslim countries in the immediate vicinity of Israel.

In the end its pretty obvious that your hatred is blinding you to even the basics. Things like reading a graph or being able to look at all of history and not just the fragments that don't challenge your narrative.

 

[montelatici]

Your posts are full of nonsense. The simple fact remains that only about 35% of returnees to Israel come from Europe.

Your continued efforts to forward revisionist views is disingenuous at best.

At partition nearly 100% of the Zionist colonizers had come from Europe or their parents had. The rest came from Oceania or the Americas.

 

[Boston1]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Although the Sioux people may find the idea of returning to an ancestral homeland appealing, modern government doesn't work that way. The Ashkenazi Zionists who created modern Israel based their activity on Bible stories Lord Balfour learned in Sunday School.

Even if historically accurate, the Torah is no basis for displacement of millions of non-Jewish residents. Add to that the fact that the "history" of Old Testament has been shown to be myth, not fact and the injustice done by European Jews to Palestinians is even more cruel and absurd.

History is filled with injustice, just ask the Sioux people. The big difference between the West Bank and the Great Sious Reservation is that the West Bank is surrounded by 400,000,000 Muslims rich with oil money and armed to the teeth with American weapons.

Nebuchadnezzar booted out the Jews 2,500 years ago. Titus did it again 500 years later. This third attempt to set up a Jewish state in Palestine isn't going to work any better than the last two. God gave the Jews a land of milk and honey in exchange for keeping the Covenant. When the Jews abandoned the Covenant, God cancelled their deed to Palestine. No human power can reverse the Will of God.

On the one hand, you say the Old Testament is myth, and on the other hand you say that Gd cancelled the Jews' deed to "Palestine" because they abandoned the Covenant. So which is it? If it's myth, that really doesn't matter because the Jews have suffered persecution for 2000 years, and they want a land of their own, regardless of the Torah. If you ARE going by the Bible, then it says that Gd will one day gather the Jews from the four corners of the world, and restore them to their homeland.

 

[montelatici]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

I have posted the links to the source immigration data from the UN archives several times. It is just fact that close to 100% of the Jews in Palestine were from Europe. Reposting the links would be contrary to the rules.

 

[Boston1]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

I have posted the links to the source immigration data from the UN archives several times. It is just fact that close to 100% of the Jews in Palestine were from Europe. Reposting the links would be contrary to the rules.

You mean the ones from just one year ? I saw those, classic cherrypicking. Any chance you can show all years ? Because as we all know by now only about 35% of todays Israeli's are returnees from Europe

 

[montelatici]

And of course you have some supporting evidence for that rather amazing claim Monty ?

I have posted the links to the source immigration data from the UN archives several times. It is just fact that close to 100% of the Jews in Palestine were from Europe. Reposting the links would be contrary to the rules.

You mean the ones from just one year ? I saw those, classic cherrypicking. Any chance you can show all years ? Because as we all know by now only about 35% of todays Israeli's are returnees from Europe

We know that nearly 100% of the colonizing Jews were from Europe at the time of partition.

 

[Boston1]

We also know that nearly 100% of the native people of Judea are Jewish. ;--)

What we don't know is why a colonist from the 9th century would be considered by you to be indigenous since you've never been able to intelligently support your claim.

Judaic people can be traced back to the stone age in Canaan.

Arabic Muslims only go back to the Arab invasion of roughly the 9th century CE

 

[Shusha]

At partition nearly 100% of the Zionist colonizers had come from Europe or their parents had. The rest came from Oceania or the Americas.

So you are completely ignoring the million (nearly) that were ethnically cleansed from the surrounding Muslim states? Because it suits you?

 

[Boston1]

he's also ignoring the fact that these people are returning to their native land vs colonizing like the Arab Muslims

 

[Fishlore]

Although the Sioux people may find the idea of returning to an ancestral homeland appealing, modern government doesn't work that way. The Ashkenazi Zionists who created modern Israel based their activity on Bible stories Lord Balfour learned in Sunday School.

Even if historically accurate, the Torah is no basis for displacement of millions of non-Jewish residents. Add to that the fact that the "history" of Old Testament has been shown to be myth, not fact and the injustice done by European Jews to Palestinians is even more cruel and absurd.

History is filled with injustice, just ask the Sioux people. The big difference between the West Bank and the Great Sious Reservation is that the West Bank is surrounded by 400,000,000 Muslims rich with oil money and armed to the teeth with American weapons.

Nebuchadnezzar booted out the Jews 2,500 years ago. Titus did it again 500 years later. This third attempt to set up a Jewish state in Palestine isn't going to work any better than the last two. God gave the Jews a land of milk and honey in exchange for keeping the Covenant. When the Jews abandoned the Covenant, God cancelled their deed to Palestine. No human power can reverse the Will of God.

On the one hand, you say the Old Testament is myth, and on the other hand you say that Gd cancelled the Jews' deed to "Palestine" because they abandoned the Covenant. So which is it? If it's myth, that really doesn't matter because the Jews have suffered persecution for 2000 years, and they want a land of their own, regardless of the Torah. If you ARE going by the Bible, then it says that Gd will one day gather the Jews from the four corners of the world, and restore them to their homeland.

You are right that the two arguments I made are inconsistent, but they are not incompatible. To start with, today's belief, expressed in the UN Charter and elsewhere, is that the government of a people must rest on the will of the people. This is the essential claim of our Declaration of Independence for example, and it is a principle flouted by the establishment of Israel and in breach of that principle in Palestine to this day.

How people reach their conclusion as to what government they want for themsleves varies enormously. Myth (and all religions rest on myth) remains popular in many parts of the globe, social and economic theories have their advocates as well. The universal principle isn't about how people decide, it is that the people, We, the People, get to decide for themselves.

Now, it is an historical fact that in 1948, the majority of people living in Palestine were Arab Muslims. The people who created Israel were British and American Christians. The population which flooded into the new state were Ashkenazi Jews from Germany, Poland and Russia. The motives and beliefs of the creators of the new state were quite disparate; more important the wishes of the millions of Arab Muslims already living in Palestine were simply ignored and overriden by armed force. This was the last gasp of the European colonialism which had been tearing up Arabia since the days of Napoleon.

Both the Christians who raised the possibility of a Zionist homeland with the Balfour Declaration and the Jews who used that document to create the state of Israel envisioned a secular government with religious freedom and equality for all religious groups. The move toward a theocratic state was a subsequent development which, since the rise to power of the Orthodox right Likud has pushed Israel outside its founding territory and beliefs with a series of brutal military operations which have been condemned as illegal by the USA, the UN and most of the world's nations. America's Jews think they can make this situation stick by constiant infusion of lawyers, guns and money. I think they are making a tragic mistake.

 

[montelatici]

he's also ignoring the fact that these people are returning to their native land vs colonizing like the Arab Muslims

No, the Jews that colonized Palestine were from Europe. It was not the European's native land. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. That they converted to Islam or Christianity and adopted Arabic as their language does not change the DNA of the native people.

 

[Shusha]

No, the Jews that colonized Palestine were from Europe. It was not the European's native land. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. That they converted to Islam or Christianity and adopted Arabic as their language does not change the DNA of the native people.

That the Jewish people were forced into a diaspora and did not convert, but remained Jewish, doesn't change our DNA as the native people either.

 

[Boston1]

he's also ignoring the fact that these people are returning to their native land vs colonizing like the Arab Muslims

No, the Jews that colonized Palestine were from Europe. It was not the European's native land. The Muslims and Christian Palestinians are the native people of Palestine. That they converted to Islam or Christianity and adopted Arabic as their language does not change the DNA of the native people.

He's lying and he knows it. The statistics are extremely clear, only about 35% of the returnees came from Europe. Something like 37% returned form the local area.

A classic example of cognitive dissonance.

Obviously the Judaic people are indigenous to Judea and obviously the Arabic people came from the Arabian peninsula. Its a no brainer only argued by revisionists.