The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Sixties Fan]

This thread was created in order to attempt to fix the significant derailment of another thread without having to delete posts.

The topic of this thread is one that comes up with regularity in IP, and is also a frequent derailer of active threads so it will now have a thread of it's own which will be pinned as a "stickie".

I apologize ahead of time for the bumpy discontinuous beginnig of this, but I think it will smooth out as discussion goes on.

The topic is: The history involving the creation of Israel, the British Mandate, and the applicable actions of the UN in that history.

I admit that I, too, drank the "Kool Aid", concerning Israel's supposed fight for survival in 1948, until very recently. While reading Charles Townshend's book, Terrorism: A Very Short Introduction (not really an introduction, but simply the name of that series of publications by Oxford University Press), I encountered the perspective that claims it's a myth that Arab nations attacked Israel, when the U.N. recognized its independence in 1948. This argument calls that narrative the "Israel Founding Myth." The argument goes farther: it posits the opposite it true. Israel attacked Palestinian communities within its borders, ethnically cleansing them from the land, in the creation of the new state. What an eye-opener.......

Good to see that your knowledge of what happened at the time went from Zilch to Zero.

Your post is very much an "eye opener" about you, whether you are simply a Jew hater, BDS flag holder, or anything which is close to any of it.
These whole paragraph has been used before, or most of it.....and without any evidence to show for it.

Whether you are actually a new poster, or an old one trying to pull the wool over people's eyes on these threads.......

Welcome

I'm just relating what I read. I always believed the opposite. Just another insight.... I'm sure it isn't the whole truth. I tend to favor Israel in its age-old struggle against the Arabs, even though I'm not a Neo-Conservative. My distrust of Islam is rather profound.

Reading something and the facts are totally different things.

Should I believe that the US Southern Confederates won the civil war in 1865, if I just happened to read that in a book by someone?

You are using Exactly the same formula used by every BDS member.

"I used to believe Israel was such and such, but NOW......."
"I distrust Islam"
"I am not a Neo-conservative"


Go and do some actual reading and do not come back until you do.

Your first post is beyond clear as to who you are and what you came here to do:

I admit that I, too, drank the "Kool Aid", concerning Israel's supposed fight for survival in 1948, until very recently. While reading Charles Townshend's book, Terrorism: A Very Short Introduction (not really an introduction, but simply the name of that series of publications by Oxford University Press), I encountered the perspective that claims it's a myth that Arab nations attacked Israel, when the U.N. recognized its independence in 1948. This argument calls that narrative the "Israel Founding Myth."


Go and have some real drinks for a change.

While I appreciate your thoughtful response, I hardly have to remind you that yours is not the last word on this emotionally charged, highly political and controversial issue. When you consider the ruthlessness of Israeli terrorism, directed against the British, leading up to 1948, it should be obvious that the Israelis were certainly capable of mass murder. Yes, I believe there was considerable ethnic-cleansing, along with Arab attacks. Israelis were willing to do whatever it took to consolidate territory and secure their independence. That's understandable. Nonetheless, they must grasp the depth of Palestinian resentment. Moreover, the U.S. should stop underwriting their misadventures, especially settlement-expansions.

And again, Mr./Mrs. BDS , you have exposed to everyone who you actually are and what you are here to do.

Namaste

 

[Mindful]

 

[Sixties Fan]

From the July 1934 Journal of Foreign Affairs:

There is a constant infiltration of Arab labor, on which there can scarcely be a practical check, from neighboring Arab lands. It will increase as the country's prosperity increases. The crossings of the River Jordan are barred for eastward Jewish Traffic, but there is traffic westward for the Arabs of Transjordan....The Jews are not permitted to develop Transjordan; its Arab inhabitants are free to come in to Palestine to take advantage of opportunities of employment which do not exist on their home country and which have only been created in Palestine by Jewish capital and Jewish enterprise.

The second panel describes the terms of the UN partition plan, conveniently leaving out the fact that the Jewish population agreed to the division of land, and the Arab population turned it down. 60 percent of the land allocated to the Jewish state was to be the arid desert in the Negev.

The third panel shows the aftermath of Israel's war of independence, and neglects to mention Jordan's control of the West Bank, or Egypt's control over Gaza. Instead\ they describe it as Palestinian Arabs "in their own homes under Arab rule". Contrary to the usual claims of 650,000 refugees, this claims 400,000 "refugees in exile outside Palestine".

The last panel shows the conclusion of the 6 day war. In this defensive war, Israel reclaimed its historic heartland- Judea and Samaria, and captured the Sinai peninsula and Gaza. This is the map deliberately excluded from the modern incarnation- because the return of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt proved Israel's commitment of land for peace.

Both the 1967 map and its more modern counterpart misrepresent residency, ownership and sovereignty, and provide evidence, yet again, that while the Jewish people have history, the Palestinian people continually struggle to create a convincing "narrative". Nothing has changed in 50 years.

(full article and maps online)

Pro-Israel Bay Bloggers: Maps of Disappearing Palestine: The Prequel

 

[NathanCross]

I admit that I, too, drank the "Kool Aid", concerning Israel's supposed fight for survival in 1948, until very recently. While reading Charles Townshend's book, Terrorism: A Very Short Introduction (not really an introduction, but simply the name of that series of publications by Oxford University Press), I encountered the perspective that claims it's a myth that Arab nations attacked Israel, when the U.N. recognized its independence in 1948. This argument calls that narrative the "Israel Founding Myth." The argument goes farther: it posits the opposite it true. Israel attacked Palestinian communities within its borders, ethnically cleansing them from the land, in the creation of the new state. What an eye-opener.......

Good to see that your knowledge of what happened at the time went from Zilch to Zero.

Your post is very much an "eye opener" about you, whether you are simply a Jew hater, BDS flag holder, or anything which is close to any of it.
These whole paragraph has been used before, or most of it.....and without any evidence to show for it.

Whether you are actually a new poster, or an old one trying to pull the wool over people's eyes on these threads.......

Welcome

I'm just relating what I read. I always believed the opposite. Just another insight.... I'm sure it isn't the whole truth. I tend to favor Israel in its age-old struggle against the Arabs, even though I'm not a Neo-Conservative. My distrust of Islam is rather profound.

Reading something and the facts are totally different things.

Should I believe that the US Southern Confederates won the civil war in 1865, if I just happened to read that in a book by someone?

You are using Exactly the same formula used by every BDS member.

"I used to believe Israel was such and such, but NOW......."
"I distrust Islam"
"I am not a Neo-conservative"


Go and do some actual reading and do not come back until you do.

Your first post is beyond clear as to who you are and what you came here to do:

I admit that I, too, drank the "Kool Aid", concerning Israel's supposed fight for survival in 1948, until very recently. While reading Charles Townshend's book, Terrorism: A Very Short Introduction (not really an introduction, but simply the name of that series of publications by Oxford University Press), I encountered the perspective that claims it's a myth that Arab nations attacked Israel, when the U.N. recognized its independence in 1948. This argument calls that narrative the "Israel Founding Myth."


Go and have some real drinks for a change.

While I appreciate your thoughtful response, I hardly have to remind you that yours is not the last word on this emotionally charged, highly political and controversial issue. When you consider the ruthlessness of Israeli terrorism, directed against the British, leading up to 1948, it should be obvious that the Israelis were certainly capable of mass murder. Yes, I believe there was considerable ethnic-cleansing, along with Arab attacks. Israelis were willing to do whatever it took to consolidate territory and secure their independence. That's understandable. Nonetheless, they must grasp the depth of Palestinian resentment. Moreover, the U.S. should stop underwriting their misadventures, especially settlement-expansions.

And again, Mr./Mrs. BDS , you have exposed to everyone who you actually are and what you are here to do.

Namaste

And that is....? Wow.... You're into thought-control, aren't you? You don't seriously expect the whole world to agree with you, do you?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ NathanCross, Sixties Fan, Sixties Fan, et al,

What is there to believe? What is there not to believe? There is only what is!

.

.

.

.

.

And that is....? Wow.... You're into thought-control, aren't you? You don't seriously expect the whole world to agree with you, do you?

(COMMENT)

There are several facets to the issue. And within each facet, there are different perspectives. Each (without regard to their side in the matter) sees the issue through the lens of reality. That is because each perspective has a different center on the issue which changes their focus.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ NathanCross, Sixties Fan, Sixties Fan, et al,

What is there to believe? What is there not to believe? There is only what is!

.

.

.

.

.

And that is....? Wow.... You're into thought-control, aren't you? You don't seriously expect the whole world to agree with you, do you?

(COMMENT)

There are several facets to the issue. And within each facet, there are different perspectives. Each (without regard to their side in the matter) sees the issue through the lens of reality. That is because each perspective has a different center on the issue which changes their focus.

Most Respectfully,
R

We are not dealing with different perspectives.
We are dealing with history.
What actually happened before and after Israel declared Independence.

BDS does not have a different perspective. Never did.
If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

The Arab focus, is to take away the 20% which remains of the Mandate for Palestine off the hands of the Indigenous Jewish People. For the simple reason that they are Jews. And because Islam does not allow Jews to be sovereign over Muslims.

THAT is their perspective and has been since Mohammad, and now since Al - Husseini became leader of modern Jihad.
All Arab leaders follow that perspective.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ Sixties Fan, et al,

Nothing that is historical is going to change the events as they unfold today. It merely supplies the fuel to keep certain arguments open.

We are not dealing with different perspectives.
We are dealing with history.
What actually happened before and after Israel declared Independence.

BDS does not have a different perspective. Never did.
If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

The Arab focus, is to take away the 20% which remains of the Mandate for Palestine off the hands of the Indigenous Jewish People. For the simple reason that they are Jews. And because Islam does not allow Jews to be sovereign over Muslims.

THAT is their perspective and has been since Mohammad, and now since Al - Husseini became leader of modern Jihad.
All Arab leaders follow that perspective.

(COMMENT)

Only the last decade, and those actions which will shape the future of tomorrow have any real effect on the reality that is the point of contention today.

The detractor is the measure of insanity that the Arab Palestinians want.

• Borders: Basically, the current Arab Palestinians in power want to roll back the clock to 4 June '67; to a time:
  
  • The Jordanians controlled the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Egyptian controlled the Gaza Strip.
  • A day before the Six-Day War.
  • Before the Yom Kipper War
  • Before the Peace Treaties with Egypt and Jordan.
  • Before the First Lebanese War.
  • Before the PLO was declared the Sole Representative of the Palestinians and a time in which the Arab League still controlled the territories.
• Jerusalem: The Arab Palestinians want:
  • Go back to before Israel annexed occupied East Jerusalem.
  • They want “permanent resident” identification cards, as a requirement, abolished.
  • They want total control of zoning policies.
  • They want the Security Barrier to be rerouted as to connect occupied East Jerusalem with the rest of the West Bank.
• Refugees: They want the Right-of-Return (RoR).
  
• Prisoners: The release of all Palestinian Prisoners arrested before the commencement of the Oslo peace process.
  
• Water:
  • Lifting Drilling Restrictions.
  • Lifting restrictions on pumping from wells and the deepening of wells.
  • Access to the Jordan River.
  • Unrestricted access to freshwater springs.
  • Lifting Restrictions on developing new water and sewage infrastructure.

The question becomes, does rolling back the clock to 4 June 1967 prevent any of the timeline events from happening?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Mindful]

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ NathanCross, Sixties Fan, Sixties Fan, et al,

What is there to believe? What is there not to believe? There is only what is!

.

.

.

.

.

And that is....? Wow.... You're into thought-control, aren't you? You don't seriously expect the whole world to agree with you, do you?

(COMMENT)

There are several facets to the issue. And within each facet, there are different perspectives. Each (without regard to their side in the matter) sees the issue through the lens of reality. That is because each perspective has a different center on the issue which changes their focus.

Most Respectfully,
R

We are not dealing with different perspectives.
We are dealing with history.
What actually happened before and after Israel declared Independence.

BDS does not have a different perspective. Never did.
If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

The Arab focus, is to take away the 20% which remains of the Mandate for Palestine off the hands of the Indigenous Jewish People. For the simple reason that they are Jews. And because Islam does not allow Jews to be sovereign over Muslims.

THAT is their perspective and has been since Mohammad, and now since Al - Husseini became leader of modern Jihad.
All Arab leaders follow that perspective.

If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

You miss the point of the issue.

 

[Hollie]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ NathanCross, Sixties Fan, Sixties Fan, et al,

What is there to believe? What is there not to believe? There is only what is!

.

.

.

.

.

And that is....? Wow.... You're into thought-control, aren't you? You don't seriously expect the whole world to agree with you, do you?

(COMMENT)

There are several facets to the issue. And within each facet, there are different perspectives. Each (without regard to their side in the matter) sees the issue through the lens of reality. That is because each perspective has a different center on the issue which changes their focus.

Most Respectfully,
R

We are not dealing with different perspectives.
We are dealing with history.
What actually happened before and after Israel declared Independence.

BDS does not have a different perspective. Never did.
If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

The Arab focus, is to take away the 20% which remains of the Mandate for Palestine off the hands of the Indigenous Jewish People. For the simple reason that they are Jews. And because Islam does not allow Jews to be sovereign over Muslims.

THAT is their perspective and has been since Mohammad, and now since Al - Husseini became leader of modern Jihad.
All Arab leaders follow that perspective.

If one can call it a perspective on the Arab side, it is that no land can be sovereign by Jews.

You miss the point of the issue.

You're not understanding the context.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Robust Opposition: The Modern History of Israel/Palestine

 

[NathanCross]

While I adamantly oppose the Cultural Marxism pushed by many powerful Jews in the U.S., I generally back Israel, because of my profound disdain for Islam. It's a crazy world.

 

[Sixties Fan]

While I adamantly oppose the Cultural Marxism pushed by many powerful Jews in the U.S., I generally back Israel, because of my profound disdain for Islam. It's a crazy world.

There is no Marxism culture amongst the Jews of the US. You are off topic.
And you clearly do not support Israel.

Your post has nothing to do with the history until the Independence of Israel in 1948.

And just for your information, Israel refused the USSR's invitation to become a Communist, Marxist country like them after the Declaration of Independence .

So much for any alleged knowledge of history you have.

 

[NathanCross]

While I adamantly oppose the Cultural Marxism pushed by many powerful Jews in the U.S., I generally back Israel, because of my profound disdain for Islam. It's a crazy world.

There is no Marxism culture amongst the Jews of the US. You are off topic.
And you clearly do not support Israel.

Your post has nothing to do with the history until the Independence of Israel in 1948.

And just for your information, Israel refused the USSR's invitation to become a Communist, Marxist country like them after the Declaration of Independence .

So much for any alleged knowledge of history you have.

There are veritable tons of Bolshevik-Judaism in the U.S. What does the media, Hollywood and the publishing industry push other than Cultural Marxism (with a few notable exceptions, of course)? Recall the Jewish, Marxist, Frankfurt School which moved to the U.S. from Germany in the 1930s. Furthermore, Sharon, Ben Gurion and much of the founding generation of Israel admired the Soviet Union, and sought to build a state which emulate it. I'm not saying all Jews are Communists, but A LOT have been and remain so.

 

[Sixties Fan]

If Zionism were colonial it would have ended long ago | Opinion

 

[NathanCross]

If Zionism were colonial it would have ended long ago | Opinion

Jews indeed "colonize", indirectly, by seizing control of international finance, the Western media, and the entertainment and publishing industries. In Palestine, they continuously squeeze out Arabs with their constant land-grabbing. That said, the Arabs are uncivilized, head-chopping Muslims, so who cares? Complicated scenario..... I support the Jews in Israel. I oppose the Bolshevik-Jews in the West.

 

[rylah]

If Zionism were colonial it would have ended long ago | Opinion

Jews indeed "colonize", indirectly, by seizing control of international finance, the Western media, and the entertainment and publishing industries. In Palestine, they continuously squeeze out Arabs with their constant land-grabbing. That said, the Arabs are uncivilized, head-chopping Muslims, so who cares? Complicated scenario..... I support the Jews in Israel. I oppose the Bolshevik-Jews in the West.

Repeating classic antisemitic canards from the 1920's is hardly a way to show support for Jews anywhere.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
※→ NathanCross, et al,

PREFACE: I write this with the knowledge that I will probably be in the minority in this view.
(So be it!)
​

While there may have been an argument in the past (albeit not a strong one), time and political and cultural evolution puts quite a different face on Russian Social Democratic Party (Bolsheviks) activity today in the US, as different from night and day compared to pre-1939.

There are veritable tons of Bolshevik-Judaism in the U.S. What does the media, Hollywood and the publishing industry push other than Cultural Marxism (with a few notable exceptions, of course)?

(COMMENT)

Cultural Marxism has been dubbed "the greatest cancer in the Western world"
but few even know what it is.
...................................................................................→ Destroy Cultural Marxism
.............................................................................................................Tuesday, January 8, 2018
​

Cultural Marxism (which sound very unAmerican - BUT distinctly different from Marxism-Leninism) is actually (very technically) the support of multiplel culturals or ethnic groups within our society. And is, by definition very American. We often refer to America as a "melting pot" of many different cultures.

Cultural Marxism
Cultural Marxism is a branch of western Marxism, different from the Marxism-Leninism of the old Soviet Union. It is commonly known as “multiculturalism” or, less formally, Political Correctness.

Cultural Marxism-William S. Lind
marylandthursdaymeeting.com/Archives/SpecialWebDocuments/Cultural.Marxism.htm

Recall the Jewish, Marxist, Frankfurt School which moved to the U.S. from Germany in the 1930s. Furthermore, Sharon, Ben Gurion and much of the founding generation of Israel admired the Soviet Union, and sought to build a state which emulate it. I'm not saying all Jews are Communists, but A LOT have been and remain so.

(COMMENT)

Granted that many of the ways of the Jewish People (their culture) might resemble "communism" (inwhich all property and production is held in the hands of the overall population for the benefit of all) I will state categorically that there is no greater of an example of capitalism in the Middle East than that of the State of Israel. There is not "a lot" of Communists in Israel, and there is not "a lot" of communists in the overall population of Jewish people.

In fact, the reputation of the Jewish People is that they were very frugal with their money and were often the target of conspiratorial theft (under the color of law) by Christian Leaders, the Papacy, and the influential Nobility. This was true up and until the end of WWII. And even today, there is a huge question if history will not (once again) record that the non-Jewish World Leadership is not using international law and the distortion of facts in the media too, once again, exploit the most advanced country in the entire Middle East of its property, capitalist holding and financial security (the takeover of business interests or investments - ie divestiture).

Just My thoughts...

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[NathanCross]

If Zionism were colonial it would have ended long ago | Opinion

Jews indeed "colonize", indirectly, by seizing control of international finance, the Western media, and the entertainment and publishing industries. In Palestine, they continuously squeeze out Arabs with their constant land-grabbing. That said, the Arabs are uncivilized, head-chopping Muslims, so who cares? Complicated scenario..... I support the Jews in Israel. I oppose the Bolshevik-Jews in the West.

Repeating classic antisemitic canards from the 1920's is hardly a way to show support for Jews anywhere.

I recommend the book, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State, by Dr. Benjamin Ginsberg. This Jewish scholar explains the problem best.

 

[Shusha]

If Zionism were colonial it would have ended long ago | Opinion

Jews indeed "colonize", indirectly, by seizing control of international finance, the Western media, and the entertainment and publishing industries. In Palestine, they continuously squeeze out Arabs with their constant land-grabbing. That said, the Arabs are uncivilized, head-chopping Muslims, so who cares? Complicated scenario..... I support the Jews in Israel. I oppose the Bolshevik-Jews in the West.

Repeating classic antisemitic canards from the 1920's is hardly a way to show support for Jews anywhere.

I recommend the book, The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State, by Dr. Benjamin Ginsberg. This Jewish scholar explains the problem best.

Are you recommending the book as support of anti-semitisim?!