The Market Wants More Stimulus

[CrusaderFrank]

Focusing on cutting government spending would be focusing on the symptom rather than the cause you blundering retard.

The cause is the current account deficit, not the government deficit.

Do you understand it yet? Jesus.

I give you a step by step explanation of how it works. I link you to a 100+ page report with historical evidence supporting the view, and then i give you a NY Fed paper that explains it step by step with data, and all you do is talk shit like a god damn idiot.

Do you have anything to say that isnt an ad hominem attack against liberals?

Could you at least tell me how that view is wrong? Can you please explain how exactly your view is superior to the view of the NY Federal Reserve?

Your view is a totally over simplified view of how the world economy works, from the mind of an internet roaming fool. Sorry, but I think the safe bet is with experts from the Federal Reserve.

Yes, I'm unclear how it works. I think a lot of us are unclear how current account deficits are the driver of an economy.

Maybe you'd better explain it to us

 

[cbirch2]

Focusing on cutting government spending would be focusing on the symptom rather than the cause you blundering retard.

The cause is the current account deficit, not the government deficit.

Do you understand it yet? Jesus.

I give you a step by step explanation of how it works. I link you to a 100+ page report with historical evidence supporting the view, and then i give you a NY Fed paper that explains it step by step with data, and all you do is talk shit like a god damn idiot.

Do you have anything to say that isnt an ad hominem attack against liberals?

Could you at least tell me how that view is wrong? Can you please explain how exactly your view is superior to the view of the NY Federal Reserve?

Your view is a totally over simplified view of how the world economy works, from the mind of an internet roaming fool. Sorry, but I think the safe bet is with experts from the Federal Reserve.

Yes, I'm unclear how it works. I think a lot of us are unclear how current account deficits are the driver of an economy.

Maybe you'd better explain it to us

I think the debate ends there...

You dont know how the current account effects the economy???

You dont know how the trade deficit effects the economy??

Do you know anything about economics? At all?

Not to mention ive already explained it in at least two threads you've posted in.

The reason south europe governments are in debt is because of the massive pull out of foreign capital that happened in 2008

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I dont know how i can make this more clear, this isnt a problem of profligate countries in the south.

Sure it is. One is prolifigate when one spends more than one has and then can't pay back what one owes. Greece needs to stop this irresponsible liberal behavior immediately and European liberals need to stop enabling the behavior immediately before it results in a run on European banks and countrys.

There is no liberal free lunch magic bullet substitute for responsible Republican behavior.

Republicans, being the responsible ones in the USA, want to prevent the same problem here by making liberal debt illegal with a Balanced Budget Amendment. This would prevent our liberals from being Greek, so to speak.

 

[cbirch2]

This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I supported that quote with a plethora of evidence and you ignored it all to simply cherry pick my quote and respond with a totally unsubstantiated claim.

Your an idiot.

 

[cbirch2]

Idk how many more times i have to say it, but the fiscally responsible countries have larger welfare states than the periphery!!

How do you argue with numbers? They had the least public spending per capita of the entire eurozone!!!!!!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I supported that quote with a plethora of evidence and you ignored it all to simply cherry pick my quote and respond with a totally unsubstantiated claim.

Your an idiot.

who are you talking to and about what?

 

[cbirch2]

This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I supported that quote with a plethora of evidence and you ignored it all to simply cherry pick my quote and respond with a totally unsubstantiated claim.

Your an idiot.

who are you talking to and about what?

This crisis is not caused by large welfare states!

Why is spending per capita in greece, italy, portugal, and spain lower than in very other country in europe?

I said that this wasnt because of welfare states and posted TONS of evidence. the spainish surplus, the spanish and italian debt/GDP, the trade balances of the eurozone, inflation in different regions in the eurozone, etc...etc....

And you just managed to ignore all of that and post nonsense.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

This is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I supported that quote with a plethora of evidence and you ignored it all to simply cherry pick my quote and respond with a totally unsubstantiated claim.

Your an idiot.

who are you talking to and about what?

This crisis is not caused by large welfare states!

Why is spending per capita in greece, italy, portugal, and spain lower than in very other country in europe?

I said that this wasnt because of welfare states and posted TONS of evidence. the spainish surplus, the spanish and italian debt/GDP, the trade balances of the eurozone, inflation in different regions in the eurozone, etc...etc....

And you just managed to ignore all of that and post nonsense.

the crisis is a debt crisis. Greece can't pay its debts. Simple enough?

"One is prolifigate when one spends more than one has and then can't pay back what one owes. Greece needs to stop this irresponsible liberal behavior immediately and European liberals need to stop enabling the behavior immediately before it results in a run on European banks and countrys."

 

[cbirch2]

who are you talking to and about what?

This crisis is not caused by large welfare states!

Why is spending per capita in greece, italy, portugal, and spain lower than in very other country in europe?

I said that this wasnt because of welfare states and posted TONS of evidence. the spainish surplus, the spanish and italian debt/GDP, the trade balances of the eurozone, inflation in different regions in the eurozone, etc...etc....

And you just managed to ignore all of that and post nonsense.

the crisis is a debt crisis. Greece can't pay its debts. Simple enough?

"One is prolifigate when one spends more than one has and then can't pay back what one owes. Greece needs to stop this irresponsible liberal behavior immediately and European liberals need to stop enabling the behavior immediately before it results in a run on European banks and countrys."

WHEN EXACTLY WAS GREECE IRRESPONSIBLE???!?!?!?!!?!

WHEN IT WAS SPENDING LESS THAN EVERY OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRY!?!?!

OMG again and again you just ignore the facts i post. Just because you restate the same thing over and over doesnt mean its fact!

Greece isnt broke because of its welfare state, i dont even know how you can possible argue that after seeing the graph above. Greece is a victim of the abrupt stop of the flow of capital from the core to the periphery! That has nothing to do with over spending, and in fact now we know that greece spent less per capita than anyone else.

 

[cbirch2]

Your post seems like one of desparation to me.

Once you realized that all the facts contradicted your argument, you simply gave up trying to prove it and restated the argument like its fact and needs no support.

How many more different ways do i have to prove you wrong?

Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe

Maybe if i say it enough youll realize...

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

WHEN EXACTLY WAS GREECE IRRESPONSIBLE???!?!?!?!!?!

when it elected to go deeper and deeper into debt.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe

..

it would have to be since they are the poorest. The point however is that its spending could be the highest or the lowest, but as long as it elected to go deeper and deeper into debt it became more and more irresponsible and liberal thus precipitating the huge crisis we now face.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Focusing on cutting government spending would be focusing on the symptom rather than the cause you blundering retard.

The cause is the current account deficit, not the government deficit.

Do you understand it yet? Jesus.

I give you a step by step explanation of how it works. I link you to a 100+ page report with historical evidence supporting the view, and then i give you a NY Fed paper that explains it step by step with data, and all you do is talk shit like a god damn idiot.

Do you have anything to say that isnt an ad hominem attack against liberals?

Could you at least tell me how that view is wrong? Can you please explain how exactly your view is superior to the view of the NY Federal Reserve?

Your view is a totally over simplified view of how the world economy works, from the mind of an internet roaming fool. Sorry, but I think the safe bet is with experts from the Federal Reserve.

Yes, I'm unclear how it works. I think a lot of us are unclear how current account deficits are the driver of an economy.

Maybe you'd better explain it to us

I think the debate ends there...

You dont know how the current account effects the economy???

You dont know how the trade deficit effects the economy??

Do you know anything about economics? At all?

Not to mention ive already explained it in at least two threads you've posted in.

The reason south europe governments are in debt is because of the massive pull out of foreign capital that happened in 2008

No, little man, have a grown up read my question to you

Your claiming that current account drives the economy, tell us how

 

[cbirch2]

Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe

..

it would have to be since they are the poorest. The point however is that its spending could be the highest or the lowest, but as long as it elected to go deeper and deeper into debt it became more and more irresponsible and liberal thus precipitating the huge crisis we now face.

 

[cbirch2]

Yes, I'm unclear how it works. I think a lot of us are unclear how current account deficits are the driver of an economy.

Maybe you'd better explain it to us

I think the debate ends there...

You dont know how the current account effects the economy???

You dont know how the trade deficit effects the economy??

Do you know anything about economics? At all?

Not to mention ive already explained it in at least two threads you've posted in.

The reason south europe governments are in debt is because of the massive pull out of foreign capital that happened in 2008

No, little man, have a grown up read my question to you

Your claiming that current account drives the economy, tell us how

Theres how it effects the debt.

 

[Brutus]

Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe
Greece per Capita spending was the lowest in europe

..

it would have to be since they are the poorest. The point however is that its spending could be the highest or the lowest, but as long as it elected to go deeper and deeper into debt it became more and more irresponsible and liberal thus precipitating the huge crisis we now face.

Greece is very irresponsible since they elected to go deeper and deeper into debt.

 

[cbirch2]

it would have to be since they are the poorest. The point however is that its spending could be the highest or the lowest, but as long as it elected to go deeper and deeper into debt it became more and more irresponsible and liberal thus precipitating the huge crisis we now face.

Greece is very irresponsible since they elected to go deeper and deeper into debt.

Conservatives imagine the greek crisis as a slow build up of debt that finally culminated in insolvency and the death of the welfare state. No.

Greek debt was certainly high before the crisis. But no where near insolvency. Its spending as a percent of GDP was average, its revenue was abnormally low; not to mention spending per capita was the lowest of the eurozone. So that sort of wipes out the idea of a welfare state.

But starting in 2008 greece saw a massive drop in revenue, its not like this is its own fault.

You could argue that greece should respond with austerity. And people did argue that, and thats what its done. And, surprisingly to conservatives, the economy shrunk more and the debt problem was worsened.

Its obvious that if all of europe cuts spending, the result will simply be a recession. The countries on the opposite end of the trade balance (remember we talked about that), need to pursue countercyclical policy while greece pursues austerity. And you need the ECB to allow a few percent higher inflation.

This crisis was brought on by the sudden drop in tax revenue, bigger than most others in the EU.

Wouldnt spending per capita and spending per GDP be the only real ways to graph a welfare state?

How does your "massive welfare" state view of greece compare with the stats of lowest spending per capita, and if anything less than average spending per GDP?

 

[Valerie]

A FRESH account emerged last week about the magnitude of financial aid that the Federal Reserve bestowed on big banks during the 2008-09 credit crisis. The report came from Bloomberg News, which had to mount a lengthy legal fight to wrest documents from the Fed that detailed its rescue efforts.

It is dispiriting, of course, that we are still learning about the billions provided to various financial firms during the crisis. Another sad element to this mess is that getting the truth requires the legal firepower of an organization as rich as Bloomberg.

But that’s the way our world works. Billions are secretly showered on troubled financial institutions to stave off disaster. Individuals get little or no help.

Here are some of the new figures:

Among all the rescue programs set up by the Fed, $7.77 trillion in commitments were outstanding as of March 2009, Bloomberg said. The nation’s six largest banks — JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — borrowed almost half a trillion dollars from the Fed at peak periods, Bloomberg calculated, using the central bank’s data.

Those six institutions accounted for 63 percent of the average daily borrowings from the Fed by all publicly traded United States banks, money management and investment firms, Bloomberg said.

Numbers for individual companies were equally astonishing.


For example...


Secrets of the Bailout, Now Told - Yahoo! Finance

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Conservatives imagine the greek crisis as a slow build up of debt that finally culminated in insolvency and the death of the welfare state. No.

conservatives imagine that each individual and each country must be responsible for its own budgeting, balance its budget, and not expect to be bailed out for irresponsibility

Greek debt was certainly high before the crisis. But no where near insolvency. Its spending as a percent of GDP was average, its revenue was abnormally low; not to mention spending per capita was the lowest of the eurozone. So that sort of wipes out the idea of a welfare state.

OMG!! an average state can be a welfare state deep in debt!!

But starting in 2008 greece saw a massive drop in revenue, its not like this is its own fault.

absolutely no liberal person or country should ever expect and prepare for a revenue drop. Its never happened before!!

 

[cbirch2]

Conservatives imagine the greek crisis as a slow build up of debt that finally culminated in insolvency and the death of the welfare state. No.

conservatives imagine that each individual and each country must be responsible for its own budgeting, balance its budget, and not expect to be bailed out for irresponsibility

Most certainly.

Except that isnt how this went down.

Again, greece was fine before 2008. Once it was plunged into a crisis it responded exactly how your describing.

Hows that worked out?

Greek debt was certainly high before the crisis. But no where near insolvency. Its spending as a percent of GDP was average, its revenue was abnormally low; not to mention spending per capita was the lowest of the eurozone. So that sort of wipes out the idea of a welfare state.

OMG!! an average state can be a welfare state deep in debt!!

In your contrived notion of reality welfare state = debt?

See in my mind a welfare state is one that spends abnormally high amounts of money on its own people and provides a vast social safety net. You can be in debt and not be a welfare state.

Again, greek spending was average. It was in debt, but that doesnt mean its a welfare state.

But starting in 2008 greece saw a massive drop in revenue, its not like this is its own fault.

absolutely no liberal person or country should ever expect and prepare for a revenue drop. Its never happened before!!

Im not even sure wtf you mean right there?

The money government takes in never goes down?

So government revenue never drops right?