The Marine Corp no more?

[Mushroom]

Yes, and the trouble is that both China and Russia have unstoppable hypersonic missiles that will break an aircraft carrier in half, and take down all the Marines with it.

Actually, as we have seen those "Hypersonic Missiles" are not as great as they are made out to be.

And "Marines on Carriers"? There have not been Marines on carriers for around 3 decades now. The "Sea School" was closed back during the Clinton Administration, and we have not had Marines stationed on Navy Ships in decades.

 

[Mushroom]

In desert shield the Marines were sent to the Iraqi Kuwait border because they deploy with 30 days of ammo and supplies to maintain a combat footing, the army does not have those resources stored and maintained at sea around the world and would have arrived with out much in the way of logistics. What this Commandant did was foolish and stupid.

True, but slight correction. It was the Kuwait-Saudi Arabia border, not the Iraq-Kuwait border.

For over 200 years, the Marines have been the "President's 911 force", because it can be deployed only on the orders of the President without his needing to go to Congress. And there are several Regiments of Marines positioned on ships afloat at all times. They can land with everything they need to operate for up to 90 days, something the Army just can not do.

 

[DudleySmith]

That is the title of the article cited below.

Personally...I believe the Commandant's logic is sound.

We have the Army to do most of the things this article woes the loss of...and an Air Force to do the rest.

The Marine Corp is a part of the Navy, and should be concentrated on Naval combat.

Let the Army handle the tanks, the artillary and the seizing of territory on land.

The Marines have a mission here that that is both vital AND soley within the purview of Naval Operation.

One that may be absolutely pivotal to victory in a potential US-China conflict.




'The Marine Corps is small, agile, and flexible, priding itself on being the first to fight, anywhere. Over the past four years, however, the current Commandant, General David H. Berger, has radically transformed the image and the mission of the Marine Corps. The primary focus now is upon developing missile units intended to sink Chinese warships. To fund those units, General Berger did away with 21% of the personnel in infantry battalions, 100% of the tanks, 67% of the cannon artillery batteries, 33% of the assault amphibious companies, nearly 30% of Marine aviation, and almost all assault breaching equipment. The desired number of large amphibious ships was reduced from 38 to 31. Due to these cuts, Marines are less capable to fight as a combined arms force. The Marine Corps cannot seize a city from an entrenched enemy, as it did Fallujah in 2004. It cannot fight on a battlefield such as Ukraine unless it queues up behind the National Guard to receive any left-over tanks and crews the U.S. Army is not employing.'

Marine Corps No More?

Since 1775, the iconic image of the American Marine has been that of a disciplined, tough rifleman moving forward in battle, often with fixed bayonet.

www.hoover.org

It has a pretty solid hard core of fans and lobbyists and PR shills, which is why it still exists, but yeah, it has been a superfluous branch since the Age of Sail died. Regular sailors can guard those ships just as well, and the Army can train snipers and special forces, too, and of course handle successful amphibious landings just fine. The same can be said for certain functions of the Air Force as well. The Corps has all those Hollywood nostalgia movies that can be trotted out whenever it feels threatened by reality and needs a heavy PR push.

 

[whitehall]

True, but slight correction. It was the Kuwait-Saudi Arabia border, not the Iraq-Kuwait border.

For over 200 years, the Marines have been the "President's 911 force", because it can be deployed only on the orders of the President without his needing to go to Congress. And there are several Regiments of Marines positioned on ships afloat at all times. They can land with everything they need to operate for up to 90 days, something the Army just can not do.

Harry Truman was caught in a bind. He could have sent the Marines to Korea on the first day but he vowed to reduce the Marines to a ceremonial detachment. Instead he sent the Army on an illegal E.O. without consulting congress. Ironically he ended up sending the Marines after MacArthur sent Troops into the biggest ambush since the Little Big Horn.

 

[Mushroom]

Harry Truman was caught in a bind. He could have sent the Marines to Korea on the first day but he vowed to reduce the Marines to a ceremonial detachment. Instead he sent the Army on an illegal E.O. without consulting congress. Ironically he ended up sending the Marines after MacArthur sent Troops into the biggest ambush since the Little Big Horn.

Not true at all, as the Army was already in South Korea as part of the Korean Military Advisory Group (KMAG). And as KMAG was a part of the Eighth US Army stationed in Japan, there was actually no requirement for congress to authorize anything. The Army and the President already had that authorization when KMAG was established in 1948 as the "Provisional Military Advisory Group".

The Army was sent first simply because there were still large numbers either on occupation duty in Japan, or assisting in rebuilding the Philippines. But the Corps was hardly a shell, there were still over 75,000 on active duty when the war broke out. However, it was only organized into 2 Divisions, and both were stationed in the US. It was because of the Korean War that the Third Division was reconstituted and assigned to Okinawa.

And no, the Marines were not sent in "after MacArthur sent troops into an ambush". Are you not aware that they are the ones that staged the landing at Inchon, then spearheaded the envelopment along the DMZ to cut off the North Korean forces in the South? That caused them to pull back from the Pusan Perimeter and turned into a route to return to the North before they were cut off. The 1st Marine Division was fighting with the Army's 7th Infantry Division when China entered the war.

Not sure where you learned that history, but it is completely wrong. But the Army was already in South Korea with the authorization of Congress when they established the Military Assistance Advisory Groups in 1950. It simply took time to get the Marines organized and onto their ships to send them to the theater, as they were all in the US (split between California and North Carolina). But there were already tens of thousands of Soldiers in the theater.

 

[DudleySmith]

When Stalin kicked off the Korean War the Army divisions in Asia were undermanned and underequipped. The Marines had the latest armor and were full strength; they had better funding after the war ended. Their armor units made a critical difference in their breakouts after hitting Inchon. It was still the Army and Navy and Air Force who bought the time needed for the Corp to get there.

CHAPTER V

 

[whitehall]

Not true at all, as the Army was already in South Korea as part of the Korean Military Advisory Group (KMAG). And as KMAG was a part of the Eighth US Army stationed in Japan, there was actually no requirement for congress to authorize anything. The Army and the President already had that authorization when KMAG was established in 1948 as the "Provisional Military Advisory Group".

The Army was sent first simply because there were still large numbers either on occupation duty in Japan, or assisting in rebuilding the Philippines. But the Corps was hardly a shell, there were still over 75,000 on active duty when the war broke out. However, it was only organized into 2 Divisions, and both were stationed in the US. It was because of the Korean War that the Third Division was reconstituted and assigned to Okinawa.

And no, the Marines were not sent in "after MacArthur sent troops into an ambush". Are you not aware that they are the ones that staged the landing at Inchon, then spearheaded the envelopment along the DMZ to cut off the North Korean forces in the South? That caused them to pull back from the Pusan Perimeter and turned into a route to return to the North before they were cut off. The 1st Marine Division was fighting with the Army's 7th Infantry Division when China entered the war.

Not sure where you learned that history, but it is completely wrong. But the Army was already in South Korea with the authorization of Congress when they established the Military Assistance Advisory Groups in 1950. It simply took time to get the Marines organized and onto their ships to send them to the theater, as they were all in the US (split between California and North Carolina). But there were already tens of thousands of Soldiers in the theater.

Historians are still arguing over the legality of Truman's E.O. but It's true that the Marines were already in Korea when Mac's crazy desire to reach the Yalu turned into a disaster.

 

[elektra]

Yes, let us all join together to destroy the greatest fighting force in the world. The USA can afford to be much weaker.

 

[whitehall]

Yes, let us all join together to destroy the greatest fighting force in the world. The USA can afford to be much weaker.
View attachment 789814

Chesty Puller. When it was reported to Puller that they were surrounded he responded "Good, now we can shoot in any direction". It was Puller's leadership that saved the U.S. Military from being annihilated during the Chosin campaign in Korea.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I personally feel that the Marine Corps should be enlarged, and these troop ships should be expanded. The Army infantry should be downsized and this focus should be transferred to National Guard units across the country, where they can train for one weekend a month and are ready to be recalled to active duty if needed.

With the new focus on technology and drones and guided missiles the mass infantry assaults may be over, and the need for more surgical strikes may be taking precedence. A skilled fighting force like the Marines can provide this force, and also augment Special Forces units and work closely with them, while we keep a larger standing army in reserve.

Due to the challenges posed by an aggressive China, expanding our Navy should be a priority.

Never mind that shit, how diverse and inclusive are the Marines?

 

[Mushroom]

It was Puller's leadership that saved the U.S. Military from being annihilated during the Chosin campaign in Korea.

Once again, not hardly. Chesty was only the commander of the 1st Marines. And if anything, it was the 7th Marine Regiment that bore the brunt of the fighting. They were in the vanguard as X Corps moved north, and were the first to engage the PVA and were shielding the Corps as the withdrawal began. Then once the stabilized and regrouped to head south, the 7th was again in the vanguard. Opening up the road from Hagaru-ri to Koto-Ri, then taking and holding Hungnam so the UN forces could withdraw.

Not sure why you keep distorting history like this. Yes, Chesty is a legend but he does not need fictional embellishments added to his legend. The truth is good enough.

 

[whitehall]

Once again, not hardly. Chesty was only the commander of the 1st Marines. And if anything, it was the 7th Marine Regiment that bore the brunt of the fighting. They were in the vanguard as X Corps moved north, and were the first to engage the PVA and were shielding the Corps as the withdrawal began. Then once the stabilized and regrouped to head south, the 7th was again in the vanguard. Opening up the road from Hagaru-ri to Koto-Ri, then taking and holding Hungnam so the UN forces could withdraw.

Not sure why you keep distorting history like this. Yes, Chesty is a legend but he does not need fictional embellishments added to his legend. The truth is good enough.

There is no need to nit-pick this way. Nobody said Chesty Puller was the only commander but his personal leadership became a legend in the Marine Corps. The media at the time never saw a democrat administration they didn't support so they chose to call Korea "The Forgotten War" even though we lost as many in three years as we lost in almost ten years in Vietnam. MacArthur's Inchon Landing turned the tide for the Army units trapped in the south but his senior citizen moment of wanting to "piss in the Yalu" with exhausted and ill supplied Troops should have alerted Truman. It seems that Harry Truman was afraid to confront his own general until it became an issue in the media.

 

[Sunni Man]

Marine General O. P. Smith was responsible for saving thousands of US soldiers lives after the massive Chinese surprise attack.
He was ordered to go north to the Yalu River as fast as he could. Gen. Smith followed Marine doctrine and continuously slowed the division's march to the point of near insubordination. By setting up fields of fire before advancing forward. Plus establishing supply points and an airfield which prove crucial in evacuating the wounded and resupply. .

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Marine General O. P. Smith was responsible for saving thousands of US soldiers lives after the massive Chinese surprise attack.
He was ordered to go north to the Yalu River as fast as he could. Gen. Smith followed Marine doctrine and continuously slowed the division's march to the point of near insubordination. By setting up fields of fire before advancing forward. Plus establishing supply points and an airfield which prove crucial in evacuating the wounded and resupply. .

the lead regiment was ordered to split up and advance just before the Chinese attacked. The commander called for clarification on his orders and delayed as long as he could that is what allowed the lead to consolidate and rescue the forward army units and retreat. A single company held a pass against overwhelming odds till the regiment could pass through.

 

[Mushroom]

Plus establishing supply points and an airfield which prove crucial in evacuating the wounded and resupply.

That would be Yonpo Airfield. The father of a friend of mine was there at the time.

An Air Force cook, he was working when a bunch of Marines bust into the mess tent and told them to grab their rifles and come with them. They all protested, as they were cooks and did not have rifles, and the Army was guarding them. Seems the Army unit that was supposed to be providing security had already left, and they were among the last ones on the base. He fought his way out of that fuster cluck with the 5th Marines, and attended the Korean War reunions with them until Alzheimer's took his memories. He was incredibly proud when his son became a Marine, and told me once he never attended a single unit reunion with his Air Force unit. Only the Marine reunions.

 

[Mushroom]

the lead regiment was ordered to split up and advance just before the Chinese attacked. The commander called for clarification on his orders and delayed as long as he could that is what allowed the lead to consolidate and rescue the forward army units and retreat. A single company held a pass against overwhelming odds till the regiment could pass through.

Well, a lot of that probably had to do with the experiences of the leadership at that time.

The Army primarily fought in Europe, where in most ways the combat was more "civilized" and traditional. The senior Marines however were survivors of the Pacific War. Where suicide charges by massive human wave frontal assaults had been common. Most of the Army leadership would have fought in Europe, and the Germans and Italians simply did not fight that way. But the Japanese, North Koreans, and Chinese did.

And that is not to put down the Germans or Italians. They could be fearsome fighters, but neither of them used human wave tactics where they tried to bury the defenders with more troops than they had bullets. It was simply a kind of fight that most in the Army had never experienced, yet the Marines were all too familiar with.

Case in point, X Corps was headed by General Ned Almond. An outstanding leader and commander of the 93rd Infantry Division in Italy. However, that kind of experience would not have served him as well against the PLA. However, the Marines under Colonels Puller, Murray, and Litzenberg had all fought the Japanese in some of the bloodiest fighting in the Pacific. Including Saipan, Okinawa, Tinian, Tarawa, and Guadalcanal.

 

[whitehall]

Marine General O. P. Smith was responsible for saving thousands of US soldiers lives after the massive Chinese surprise attack.
He was ordered to go north to the Yalu River as fast as he could. Gen. Smith followed Marine doctrine and continuously slowed the division's march to the point of near insubordination. By setting up fields of fire before advancing forward. Plus establishing supply points and an airfield which prove crucial in evacuating the wounded and resupply. .

O.P. Smith was a savvy combat leader but he was outranked by MacArthur's lapdog, Ned Almond who was responsible for placing American Troops in harms way at the Chosin.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

The intelligence failures of Mac's staff, who were feeding info to him that fed what he wanted to hear, led to thousands of causalities, including two family members that winter.

 

[whitehall]

The intelligence failures of Mac's staff, who were feeding info to him that fed what he wanted to hear, led to thousands of causalities, including two family members that winter.

That's exactly what happened. MacArthur had the responsibility for the Korean conflict but never spent a single night in Korea, preferring to sit back in his Di Ichi digs in Japan and rely on faulty "intelligence reports" from Almond which were intended to stroke MacArthur's ego. The strange thing is that Truman continued to behave like an outsider even though the conflict was his responsibility.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

That's exactly what happened. MacArthur had the responsibility for the Korean conflict but never spent a single night in Korea, preferring to sit back in his Di Ichi digs in Japan and rely on faulty "intelligence reports" from Almond which were intended to stroke MacArthur's ego. The strange thing is that Truman continued to behave like an outsider even though the conflict was his responsibility.

I think Truman, like many Americans, were in awe of MacArthur. My dad, who served under him, thought him a great soldier's general. MacArthur, I believe, wanted to drive to the Yalu and then establish a bridgehead in China, hopefully waiting for an UN willing to expand into China on behalf "of the free world."

Meglomania.