AvgGuyIA
Gold Member
It is absurd to have PUBLIC SECTOR UNION JOBS. Who are they being protected from; an evil capitalist boss who's trying to horde all the profits for himself?
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So you can start a thread with a little civility, good.
I oppose the concept of political parties, but the topic is important.
The word Isolationism is a misnomer, that refers to shutting out the entire world when I don't believe that is the desired goal in the question.I have an honest question for everyone here in both parties; Where are we on isolationism? How do you guys feel about bringing jobs back, either through tarriffs on imports, or on making laws to prohibit outsourcing, both, or any other means?
When you have a disfunctional political system that is mainly concerned with getting itself re-elected its dangerous to talk about it making laws about business and industry as it trends towards populism and away from making hard decisions that would needed for real firm change.
However there are things that can be done, to end 'outsourcing' but they should be done in a draconian fasion, such as companies that outsource PC help for example, should be taxed 100%. That would end it right there. Basically you would be saying 'if you use anyone but Americans, you won't be making a dime.'
Tariffs and trade barriers are something else, to change any of that the USA would have to leave the WTO which we ceeded part of our soverenty too, and who control what they think are 'fair' trade and protections and tariffs.
The pool is flooded because the USA has very little true industry anymore, outside of food and weapons we make very little else.The labor pool is flooded, which has forced real wages into the toilet and put the clamp on the middle class. So many people are desperate for work that they'll take far less than someone in their position would make otherwise, and companies are happy to oblige paying them far less.
Thoughts?
State union workers are retiring at 50 and drawing 90% of their final year's pay - including all the bonuses and overtime hours paid.yep...we should compete for jobs with mexico and pay our workers the same wages.
well, that will solve the problem of illegal immigration anyway.
the idea that unions shouldn't exist is pretty silly.
I knew somebody would get it. We simply cannot afford that.
But where are you on tariffs/eliminating outsourcing? It's starting to sound like a lot of you are in favor of bringing jobs back by removing restrictions that would allow wages to go even lower (or "Become more competitive"). I'm wondering how we feel about ending the competition with 3rd world countries, where they're so desperate for money they'll work for pennies a day.
Perhaps if we ended this "Race to the bottom," unions would be un-necessary? thoughts?
Business should be free to create jobs where it is most cost effective for them to do so. If that is outside our borders, so be it.
But you understand, this is harming us, it's funneling money out of our economy to other countries. This is THE huge cause for unemployment and underemployment in this country; Not the unions, not Obama, not the liberals-- The jobs are just plain gone... The booming industrial areas of the 60s and 70s are now abandoned warehouses and ghettos as a result. What used to be economic hot-spots are now depressed areas populated by people who are burdens of the State, because they can't find work.
I think "We the People" decide what companies who make their money here can and can't do. Would you stand by your convictions if your source of income - Whatever it is - Was outsourced?
A job matches with a skill and a price. Most of the outsourcing is because US schools are turning out kids with limited skills that aren't worth the minimum wage.
I personally don't like dealing with the Bombay phone centers, but something must be done right in Indian schools that they can turn out thousands of kids competent in a foreign language. Well, almost competent.
Companies are private actors. It is not consonant with the ideas of liberty for the government to order private parties to march to its tune.
Economic freedom is the key to economic prosperity. Government orders are tyrannical and usually wind up impoverishing a society.
State union workers are retiring at 50 and drawing 90% of their final year's pay - including all the bonuses and overtime hours paid.
I knew somebody would get it. We simply cannot afford that.
so we should pay social security and medicare for people?
or should those people stay in the work force and younger people not get jobs.
and what you're suggesting is a fallacy anyway.
the far greater problem is CEO's leaving with golden parachutes.
it's disgusting when corporations pay hundreds of milions of dollars to people who failed at managing the company and then tell the people who work their butts off that there is no money to pay for healthcare.
CEO's and other management used to earn something like 6 times what workers earned, on average. now it's something like 25 times.
you want corporations to save money? fix healthcare and cut welfare for rich people.
CEO's and other management used to earn something like 6 times what workers earned, on average. now it's something like 25 times.
you want corporations to save money? fix healthcare and cut welfare for rich people.
CEO's and other management used to earn something like 6 times what workers earned, on average. now it's something like 25 times.
you want corporations to save money? fix healthcare and cut welfare for rich people.
Jillian, it was around 24 times as much in 1965. Now it's nearly 300 times as much.
A job matches with a skill and a price. Most of the outsourcing is because US schools are turning out kids with limited skills that aren't worth the minimum wage.
I personally don't like dealing with the Bombay phone centers, but something must be done right in Indian schools that they can turn out thousands of kids competent in a foreign language. Well, almost competent.
Companies are private actors. It is not consonant with the ideas of liberty for the government to order private parties to march to its tune.
Economic freedom is the key to economic prosperity. Government orders are tyrannical and usually wind up impoverishing a society.
Well, you're always gonna have people that aren't that bright. You can put them in a factory doing mindless work for $16 an hour, contributing to the economy, or you can ship the job overseas and that person can collect unemployment. Can I fairly say that we need to strike a balance?
Jillian, go do the math and come back and tell me that 90% final salaries for public sector retirees at 50 is affordable.
These are two separate issues, and we need to treat them as such. Two wrongs do not equal a right. That is basic math. It's liberal lala-land to pretend that 'fixing' healthcare will solve all our problems. It will not. And anyone who thinks that the 2000 page piece of shit that was the 'plan' was actually going to fix anything was a fool.
A job can only pay $16 per hour if it is worth that much to have it done. No one ships a job overseas. People try and find folks that match the work they need done.
Ceteris Paribas never happens in the real world. Something will break long before then.Jillian, go do the math and come back and tell me that 90% final salaries for public sector retirees at 50 is affordable.
These are two separate issues, and we need to treat them as such. Two wrongs do not equal a right. That is basic math. It's liberal lala-land to pretend that 'fixing' healthcare will solve all our problems. It will not. And anyone who thinks that the 2000 page piece of shit that was the 'plan' was actually going to fix anything was a fool.
In 10 years we will be paying 50% of every dollar in our GDP for health care. Before we screw over our workers, I'd suggest reforming health care.
Ceteris Paribas never happens in the real world. Something will break long before then.Jillian, go do the math and come back and tell me that 90% final salaries for public sector retirees at 50 is affordable.
These are two separate issues, and we need to treat them as such. Two wrongs do not equal a right. That is basic math. It's liberal lala-land to pretend that 'fixing' healthcare will solve all our problems. It will not. And anyone who thinks that the 2000 page piece of shit that was the 'plan' was actually going to fix anything was a fool.
In 10 years we will be paying 50% of every dollar in our GDP for health care. Before we screw over our workers, I'd suggest reforming health care.
I think you are right that something needs fixing, but the policy on offer is the worst kind of wrong answer that will make the problem lot worse, rather than any better.
Most of the health care cost issue is not actually related to the cost of care. It is the cost of wierd mandates (for things like chiropractic, naturopathy, slacker insurance, out of line coverage) paperwork (When I was a lad the doctor came to your house (At least until 1965) and billed you right there and you paid him, or he sent you a bill. Nowdays, you go to a doctors office and there is one doctor and 5 staff to handle all the paperwork. Adjusted for inflation, the co pay you need to pay now is more than the doctor's entire bill back in 1965) CYA tests that really don't do much for getting healthy but save the doctor the heartache of a malpractice suit, and of course the cost of malpractice insurance. Most of which is driven not by actual harm caused by doctors, but by predatory lawyers like Senator Edwards who have managed to separate causation from damages, and just the fact that healthcare has lots more going for it than it used to. Now we have ultrasound and MRI and all kinds of neat, but expensive, toys. It has to get paid for somehow.
I do think we should find ways to reduce paperwork fix torts so there is a connection between causation and damages and the amount paid out, reduce the need for CYA tests by doctors, end weird mandates, all that kind of thing will do more for US healthcare than 57 new government agencies all competing for the marginal tax dollar could.
And fixing the tax code wouldn't hurt either. Even for my really basic tax situation, it takes a huge pile of paper and about two hours at a computer to do the taxes. For a small business, the BS requirements of the tax code means he has to hire legions of accountants, rather than other staff to do the actual productive work of his enterprise.
Ceteris Paribas never happens in the real world. Something will break long before then.Jillian, go do the math and come back and tell me that 90% final salaries for public sector retirees at 50 is affordable.
These are two separate issues, and we need to treat them as such. Two wrongs do not equal a right. That is basic math. It's liberal lala-land to pretend that 'fixing' healthcare will solve all our problems. It will not. And anyone who thinks that the 2000 page piece of shit that was the 'plan' was actually going to fix anything was a fool.
In 10 years we will be paying 50% of every dollar in our GDP for health care. Before we screw over our workers, I'd suggest reforming health care.
I think you are right that something needs fixing, but the policy on offer is the worst kind of wrong answer that will make the problem lot worse, rather than any better.
Most of the health care cost issue is not actually related to the cost of care. It is the cost of wierd mandates (for things like chiropractic, naturopathy, slacker insurance, out of line coverage) paperwork (When I was a lad the doctor came to your house (At least until 1965) and billed you right there and you paid him, or he sent you a bill. Nowdays, you go to a doctors office and there is one doctor and 5 staff to handle all the paperwork. Adjusted for inflation, the co pay you need to pay now is more than the doctor's entire bill back in 1965) CYA tests that really don't do much for getting healthy but save the doctor the heartache of a malpractice suit, and of course the cost of malpractice insurance. Most of which is driven not by actual harm caused by doctors, but by predatory lawyers like Senator Edwards who have managed to separate causation from damages, and just the fact that healthcare has lots more going for it than it used to. Now we have ultrasound and MRI and all kinds of neat, but expensive, toys. It has to get paid for somehow.
I do think we should find ways to reduce paperwork fix torts so there is a connection between causation and damages and the amount paid out, reduce the need for CYA tests by doctors, end weird mandates, all that kind of thing will do more for US healthcare than 57 new government agencies all competing for the marginal tax dollar could.
And fixing the tax code wouldn't hurt either. Even for my really basic tax situation, it takes a huge pile of paper and about two hours at a computer to do the taxes. For a small business, the BS requirements of the tax code means he has to hire legions of accountants, rather than other staff to do the actual productive work of his enterprise.
Break the stranglehold of Unions. And get government off the backs of small business.
yep...we should compete for jobs with mexico and pay our workers the same wages.
well, that will solve the problem of illegal immigration anyway.
the idea that unions shouldn't exist is pretty silly.
A job can only pay $16 per hour if it is worth that much to have it done. No one ships a job overseas. People try and find folks that match the work they need done.
C'mon, don't brush me off here. When there's a guy in Bangledesh that will do the job for $0.25 an hour, what does that do to the "Value" of the job? The question is, should we allow American corporations to find the cheapest labor they can, no matter what the cost to our economy? Is there a line in the sand to be drawn... Anywhere?
But where are you on tariffs/eliminating outsourcing? It's starting to sound like a lot of you are in favor of bringing jobs back by removing restrictions that would allow wages to go even lower (or "Become more competitive"). I'm wondering how we feel about ending the competition with 3rd world countries, where they're so desperate for money they'll work for pennies a day.
Perhaps if we ended this "Race to the bottom," unions would be un-necessary? thoughts?
Business should be free to create jobs where it is most cost effective for them to do so. If that is outside our borders, so be it.
and i think people should be paid a living wage for a fair day's work. and i think corporations who send jobs elsewhere should be penalized.
i also think NAFTA was a mistake.