The Incidence of the Paul Ryan Health Insurance Tax Credit

[usmbguest5318]

One of the changes the Paul Ryan proposes in his replacement of the ACA is to change the assistance model from direct subsidies to the cost of insurance to refundable tax credits (a receivable) the insured in essence factors to the insurer. What has Ryan outlined in his proposal? Here's what Ryan has said:

• Under the Patients’ Choice Ace, if an individual selects a high‐deductible health insurance plan that is cheaper than the value of the credit, they can keep the difference in their Health Savings Account.
• Under the Patients’ Choice Act, all Americans would receive a tax credit – over $5,700 for families – which can only be used to pay for health insurance or medical expenses. Individuals and families will be able to use any overages to pay for preventive care, which can be rolled over at the end of the year.
• Individuals are able to use their tax credit to purchase insurance that is offered outside [their state's] exchange, so long as the plan is licensed in the state.
• Individuals could choose to select a plan and write the check themselves, or, the tax credit can be “automatically” designated [factored] to a high deductible private plan if the covered individual does not opt out. The tax credits cannot be used to purchase anything other than health insurance, or pay for medical and preventative services. Individuals and the market would quickly catch on.
• The tax credit they will receive will cover the premiums for employer-provided health benefits they currently receive, as well as the marginal tax liability on the cost of health insurance provided by the employers which will be counted as wages.
• Every American will have a tax credit to purchase a health insurance policy which meets their needs. Families will have a tax credit worth over $5,700, and individuals will have a tax credit worth about $2,300.

Thread/discussion questions:

Assuming Paul Ryan's health insurance tax credit ideas be what Congress implements:

1. Of the following choices, on whom do you prefer to the incidence of the tax credit land? Why?
   • Health Insurance Providers
   • Health Insurance Buyers
2. Do you think the tax credit should be revenue neutral? Why or why not?
   • Yes
   • No -- Discuss what you want instead of revenue neutrality.
3. What will be your opinion of the GOP's replacement for O-care if what you prefer is not how it turns out once O-care's replacement is implemented?

 

[Moonglow]

The tax credit is for reducing your tax liability or a cash rebate like EIC?

 

[Care4all]

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

Also, are people who get their insurance through their employer going to get this credit?

or is employer sponsored group insurance going away?

 

[Lewdog]

So they are going to raise your taxes, then give you a health insurance tax credit... wow anyone with a brain can see the scam here. In essence the federal government is doing nothing to help cover people with health insurance...

 

[kiwiman127]

Considering, most of the folks who needed Obamacare and it's subsidies live check to check, neither tax credits or healthcare savings accounts are going to work for them.
Anyone want to guess how many Americans will be again, be without healthcare insurance?
Either approach, will put America back where is was before Obamacare. If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

 

[Kosh]

Considering, most of the folks who needed Obamacare and it's subsidies live check to check, neither tax credits or healthcare savings accounts are going to work for them.
Anyone want to guess how many Americans will be again, be without healthcare insurance?
Either approach, will put America back where is was before Obamacare. If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

See how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare?

http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speake...f_Republican_Alternative_Health_Care_plan.pdf

 

[usmbguest5318]

If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

Is this you?

I figured I should ask because Joe has an active listing for "a beautiful lot located on the south lake of Lake Metigoshe. This lot is #31 and has 103 ft. of shoreline....on this lot [that] has a beautiful sand beach."

Lake Metigoshe has beachside areas for swimming and access to the lake for fishing or boating. The area is surrounded by gorgeous forests and is the perfect outdoor retreat on a hot summer day.

​

 

[Skull Pilot]

The tax credit is for reducing your tax liability or a cash rebate like EIC?

if it's refundable it's like the EIC

 

[usmbguest5318]

See how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare?

http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speake...f_Republican_Alternative_Health_Care_plan.pdf

??? Actually, seeing as the post you quoted in association with your question is this one...

Considering, most of the folks who needed Obamacare and it's subsidies live check to check, neither tax credits or healthcare savings accounts are going to work for them. Anyone want to guess how many Americans will be again, be without healthcare insurance? Either approach, will put America back where is was before Obamacare. If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

...No, I don't see "how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare."

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

...

As you know, the information I posted in my OP comes from Paul Ryan; it's his plan.

• Have you read the linked Patients' Choice Act discussion document that describes his plan in greater detail? The very first words of the OP link to the document.
• Have you looked at Paul Ryan's Q&A discussion about his plan?

I believe if you read the two documents you'll find spread throughout them the information that, once you aggregate it, forms the conceptual explanation pertaining to your comment/observation. I can't say whether you'll like the explanation you find, but I can say it's there.

Ryan's proposal, the Patients' Choice Act, is themed in part on the following principles: "Universal access to affordable health care for all Americans should be guaranteed. Congress should enact a comprehensive solution that will make our healthcare system work for every American every time."

 

[usmbguest5318]

Is it asking too much for posters to at least answer the thread/discussion questions? They aren't difficult questions. Here they are again:


Assuming Paul Ryan's health insurance tax credit ideas be what Congress implements:

1. Of the following choices, on whom do you prefer to the incidence of the tax credit land? Why?
   • Health Insurance Providers
   • Health Insurance Buyers
2. Do you think the tax credit should be revenue neutral? Why or why not?
   • Yes
   • No -- Discuss what you want instead of revenue neutrality.
3. What will be your opinion of the GOP's replacement for O-care if what you prefer is not how it turns out once O-care's replacement is implemented?

 

[Kosh]

See how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare?

http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speake...f_Republican_Alternative_Health_Care_plan.pdf

??? Actually, seeing as the post you quoted in association with your question is this one...

Considering, most of the folks who needed Obamacare and it's subsidies live check to check, neither tax credits or healthcare savings accounts are going to work for them. Anyone want to guess how many Americans will be again, be without healthcare insurance? Either approach, will put America back where is was before Obamacare. If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

...No, I don't see "how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare."

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

...

As you know, the information I posted in my OP comes from Paul Ryan; it's his plan.

• Have you read the linked Patients' Choice Act discussion document that describes his plan in greater detail? The very first words of the OP link to the document.
• Have you looked at Paul Ryan's Q&A discussion about his plan?

I believe if you read the two documents you'll find spread throughout them the information that, once you aggregate it, forms the conceptual explanation pertaining to your comment/observation. I can't say whether you'll like the explanation you find, but I can say it's there.

Ryan's proposal, the Patients' Choice Act, is themed in part on the following principles: "Universal access to affordable health care for all Americans should be guaranteed. Congress should enact a comprehensive solution that will make our healthcare system work for every American every time."

Of course you do not see it, most far left drones do not!

You can have healthcare without healthcare insurance, but you can not have healthcare insure without healthcare.

Far left drone's run a religious narrative and they are incapable of seeing outside their programming.

You can make healthcare affordable and ease how much insurance one needs, the far left wants healthcare costs high so you need to buy expensive healthcare insurance. That is what Obamacare did.

It was designed to fail as this was the stepping stone for the far left to initiate a single payer system.

The (R)'s have many ideas on how to replace the horrid Obamacare plans. Just that Trump needs to get elected and the cabinet needs to be in place so they can move forward. Any plan will be discussed and debated and shared with the other side. The other side will become the party of NO, because it is their way or the highway.

The only single payer plan I am interested in is between me and my doctor without the government being in the middle.

Voting for or supporting the far left is never the answer!

 

[usmbguest5318]

The tax credit is for reducing your tax liability or a cash rebate like EIC?

It's a refundable tax credit (aka tax rebate). The OP identifies Paul Ryan's statements on how it could be used. As a tax credit, it will by definition reduce one's federal income tax liability, provided one has one, which the poorest Americans do not, and some of the most high earning income earners do not.

• 2017: Income earners having taxable income less than or equal to the sum of their applicable standard deduction and personal exemption will not have a tax liability. How does that happen?
  • Poor: It's pretty straightforward for poor folks. They just don't earn enough taxable income to incur a federal income tax liability.
  • Rich: The ways it happens with high income earners is considerably more complex, but the basic approach is the same: rich people reduce their taxable income by engaging in transactions that allow them to reduce their gross earnings to the point that what income remains is taxable income at or below the sum of their applicable standard deduction, personal exemption(s) and tax credits for the tax year in question.
    
    It is important to note that the deductions that make it possible for very wealthy people to reduce their taxable income to so such sums are, for the most part, "before AGI" or "to arrive at AGI" deductions. The reason for that is that the AMT will kick in and force filers who are sufficiently aggressive with itemized deductions to "add back" some itemized deductions, thereby boosting their net taxable income back to a point whereby they have a tax liability. The classes of taxable income reductions that the AMT does not "recapture" are:
    • above-the-line deductions -- this is one of the "big two" classes of income reductions that rich self-employed people use to minimize or eliminate their tax liability. There are certain industries that are particularly favored as go having innate opportunities to engage in the types of transactions that result in massive year after year deductions.
      
      If one is able to be a self-employed business owner in those industries, there's a very good change one has little (both in absolute and relative terms) to no tax liability. What are some of them? Real estate and construction, hospitality, software, energy and natural resources, health care, agriculture, banking and insurance. That said, being self-employed in any industry provides one with myriad federal and state income tax minimization opportunities that simply aren't available to employees. (Don't get taken by the deceptive and often stated "self employed people pay the highest tax rates" claim; it is specious and the people who make it know it is. I can explain it, but your understanding of it and taxes in general will be far better served if you research the answer yourself.)
    • home mortgage interest -- this deduction has a lot to do with why rich people buy huge expensive homes.
    • charitable deductions, and
    • business deductions -- this is the other one that rich self-employed people like Trump use to wipe out their tax liability; however, this is really just a subclass of "above the line" deductions. Trump's NOL carry-forward is one such example.

 

[usmbguest5318]

See how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare?

http://www.speaker.gov/sites/speake...f_Republican_Alternative_Health_Care_plan.pdf

??? Actually, seeing as the post you quoted in association with your question is this one...

Considering, most of the folks who needed Obamacare and it's subsidies live check to check, neither tax credits or healthcare savings accounts are going to work for them. Anyone want to guess how many Americans will be again, be without healthcare insurance? Either approach, will put America back where is was before Obamacare. If people think that will stop the out of control rise in healthcare insurance premiums or increasing deductibles, well I have beach front property for sale in North Dakota!

...No, I don't see "how the far left drones think health insurance is healthcare."

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

...

As you know, the information I posted in my OP comes from Paul Ryan; it's his plan.

• Have you read the linked Patients' Choice Act discussion document that describes his plan in greater detail? The very first words of the OP link to the document.
• Have you looked at Paul Ryan's Q&A discussion about his plan?

I believe if you read the two documents you'll find spread throughout them the information that, once you aggregate it, forms the conceptual explanation pertaining to your comment/observation. I can't say whether you'll like the explanation you find, but I can say it's there.

Ryan's proposal, the Patients' Choice Act, is themed in part on the following principles: "Universal access to affordable health care for all Americans should be guaranteed. Congress should enact a comprehensive solution that will make our healthcare system work for every American every time."

Of course you do not see it, most far left drones do not!

You can have healthcare without healthcare insurance, but you can not have healthcare insure without healthcare.

Far left drone's run a religious narrative and they are incapable of seeing outside their programming.

You can make healthcare affordable and ease how much insurance one needs, the far left wants healthcare costs high so you need to buy expensive healthcare insurance. That is what Obamacare did.

It was designed to fail as this was the stepping stone for the far left to initiate a single payer system.

The (R)'s have many ideas on how to replace the horrid Obamacare plans. Just that Trump needs to get elected and the cabinet needs to be in place so they can move forward. Any plan will be discussed and debated and shared with the other side. The other side will become the party of NO, because it is their way or the highway.

The only single payer plan I am interested in is between me and my doctor without the government being in the middle.

Voting for or supporting the far left is never the answer!

I was about to respond topically to your comments, but I'm not going to because while you've made clear your disdain for the "far left," that, along with the rest of your post's comments, says and does nothing to advance the substantive discussion for which the OP entreats by asking members to respond to three questions and discuss the reasons for their answers.

 

[Moonglow]

Kosh has to get medial coverage to see a psychologist for his political discord hypertension asshole disorder...

Assuming Paul Ryan's health insurance tax credit ideas be what Congress implements:

1. Of the following choices, on whom do you prefer to the incidence of the tax credit land? Why?
   • Health Insurance Providers
   • Health Insurance Buyers
2. Do you think the tax credit should be revenue neutral? Why or why not?
   • Yes
   • No -- Discuss what you want instead of revenue neutrality.
3. What will be your opinion of the GOP's replacement for O-care if what you prefer is not how it turns out once O-care's replacement is implemented?

1. Buyers
2. No. Could have a federal tax like the gasoline tax on certain medical devices..
3. I have no preference, since I have VA coverage..

 

[Iceweasel]

It's a big complicated mess and has to be undone in stages. You can't strip away coverage people have been paying in to. If you have a better plan, rather than pounding your keyboard here go ahead and submit it for consideration.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So it's the mandate in disguise.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Kosh has to get medial coverage to see a psychologist for his political discord hypertension asshole disorder...

Assuming Paul Ryan's health insurance tax credit ideas be what Congress implements:

1. Of the following choices, on whom do you prefer to the incidence of the tax credit land? Why?
   • Health Insurance Providers
   • Health Insurance Buyers
2. Do you think the tax credit should be revenue neutral? Why or why not?
   • Yes
   • No -- Discuss what you want instead of revenue neutrality.
3. What will be your opinion of the GOP's replacement for O-care if what you prefer is not how it turns out once O-care's replacement is implemented?

1. Buyers
2. No. Could have a federal tax like the gasoline tax on certain medical devices..
3. I have no preference, since I have VA coverage..

TY for your direct answers to the questions.

I'm going to wait and see if more members follow your lead so that we can as a group engage in a discussion around the (hopefully) multiplicity of responses and ideas. I will later today answer the questions too.

 

[usmbguest5318]

So it's the mandate in disguise.

Assuming Paul Ryan's health insurance tax credit ideas be what Congress implements:

1. Of the following choices, on whom do you prefer to the incidence of the tax credit land? Why?
   • Health Insurance Providers
   • Health Insurance Buyers
2. Do you think the tax credit should be revenue neutral? Why or why not?
   • Yes
   • No -- Discuss what you want instead of revenue neutrality.
3. What will be your opinion of the GOP's replacement for O-care if what you prefer is not how it turns out once O-care's replacement is implemented?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

Also, are people who get their insurance through their employer going to get this credit?

or is employer sponsored group insurance going away?

Why would a person who can't afford premiums pick the highest priced insurance your state offers??
I would like to see this plan that cost about $1,083 a month for an INDIVIDUAL.

Or are you just flat out lying?.....cause I just went to Maine's site and for a 35 year old making $50k the monthly cost is $283 or $3396 a year.

 

[usmbguest5318]

FYI-an individual health insurance plan costs about $13,000 a year per person, in Maine... if the $2300 is the maximum credit, and a real credit not some HSA that is your own money put in the account, the people needing health insurance can still not afford it.

Also, are people who get their insurance through their employer going to get this credit?

or is employer sponsored group insurance going away?

Why would a person who can't afford premiums pick the highest priced insurance your state offers??
I would like to see this plan that cost about $1,083 a month for an INDIVIDUAL.

Or are you just flat out lying?.....cause I just went to Maine's site and for a 35 year old making $50k the monthly cost is $283 or $3396 a year.

He's not strictly wrong about the $13K. That is about what a typical individual health insurance policy would cost if one were buy it directly from an insurer.

He also appears not to have read Paul Ryan's discussion document or Q&A page about the Patients' Choice Act for the very issue he raised re: $2300 is addressed there. One can think whatever about the explanations one'll find there, but there is some degree of explanation there.