The Humanitarian Gaza Flotillas Saga

[Billo_Really]

I see no parallel there. Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.

It's a little hard setting up a democracy, when you live under martial law.

 

[Kondor3]

Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.

Or any Arab, for that matter.

 

[flacaltenn]

I see no parallel there. Israel didnt cause the breakdown of Pali national democracy.

It's a little hard setting up a democracy, when you live under martial law.

The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.

Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..

Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..

 

[Kondor3]

Excuses, excuses, excuses... the Palestinians wouldn't recognize Democracy if it came up and bit them on the ass.

Or any Arab, for that matter.

OK... OK... OK... I was tryin' to be nice... ya caught me...

... busted and disgusted...

 

[Phoenall]

So show where the Israeli's were in gaza after August 2005 then. If not one Israeli citizen was inside the cease fire lines after August 2005 then they disengaged and retired behind those ceasefire lines. No International law that saws they have to allow free passage in or out of Israel is there.

Yeah, but there is a law that say's you cannot collectively punish an entire population of people, which is exactly what the blockade is doing.

And that law, is a war crime.

If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now. But seeing as it follows the rules of international law it does not collectively punish the Palestinians. Read the link I gave to the goods banned under International treaty and see that Israel is barely banning half of them. The only people collectively punishing the gazan people is hamas who steal all the goods coming in and sell it on the black market.


So where are the charge sheets issued by the ICC/ICJ detailing these alleged war crimes, without them you are LYING

 

[aris2chat]

The Palis screwed it up with a little pressure from the US to hold "elections" prematurely.

Elections were held under Arafat. He rigged the election by letting Khalil, a little known 72 yr old grandmother, be his only opposition.........and she still got 12% of the vote.
Middle east is not known for truly fair elections. Most are won by 90+%, which to westerners is seen as near impossible. The process is still somewhat alien to the people. Elections are not choices but affirmation. There is no surprise as to who will win. More often than not candidates are forced off the ballot or are eliminated, permanently.
The fact that hamas was elected to parliament at all was a fluke. Fatah won the most votes, but the vote was split between too many candidates and hamas slid in by default. They did not have popular support even in gaza. After the elections they forced their way into control of gaza and killed or threw out fatah members of government.

Real democracy for the arabs is still quite a way off. They are still predominantly a tribal people.

That is certainly the miscalculation of the American neocons who envisioned a domino theory of democracy
Starting with Iraq ending in the chaos of the Arab Spring. But Israel should have known better than to be blind sided by the Hamas intrusion into Pali Nationalism. The majority of Arab countries NEED strongman secular dictators OR some form of theocracy. What a choice eh? But it IS their choice to make. Pali nationalism just might NEED another Arafat. Hopefully one who appreciates the value of economic development and peace.

Hamas was taken by surprised. Palestinians were not prepared for government. Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected. Hamas was a militant group not a political one. It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
Everyone expected fatah to win, the way the election was run did not have a primary were one from each party were competing against each other. It was mostly fatah against fatah, with a few hamas thrown in the mix.
Israel wanted a political system to work for the palestinians, but had no control of the management of the elections. There were international overseers. Imagine one democrat against 20 republicans in a single election. It was like no election the palestinians had had before. Arafat had basically decided who was on the list. Without Arafat it became a free for all. Arafat had not been elected by the people but picked by the AL and had held power for so long the palestinians knew no one else. Elections locally in the camps often resulted in blood in the streets. Fights between factions were violent, it was not a beauty contest or about ideas for the future. It was strength. Who would fight the Israelis, who would stand against the Israelis, who would not surrender to the Israelis. The palestinians, as a people, were not really prepared for politics.

 

[Billo_Really]

The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.

You're full of shit!

The Pals were beginning to have that government you claimed they should have, when Hamas and Fatah came to terms with their unity government. The Israeli's immediately told a bunch of bullshit lies and attacked Gaza.

In other words, Israel will not allow them to have an organizational government.

Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..

I have. You just don't have the stones to acknowledge it.

Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..

So when do the Pals get their casino's?

 

[Billo_Really]

Hamas was taken by surprised. Palestinians were not prepared for government. Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected. Hamas was a militant group not a political one. It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
Everyone expected fatah to win, the way the election was run did not have a primary were one from each party were competing against each other. It was mostly fatah against fatah, with a few hamas thrown in the mix.
Israel wanted a political system to work for the palestinians, but had no control of the management of the elections. There were international overseers. Imagine one democrat against 20 republicans in a single election. It was like no election the palestinians had had before. Arafat had basically decided who was on the list. Without Arafat it became a free for all. Arafat had not been elected by the people but picked by the AL and had held power for so long the palestinians knew no one else. Elections locally in the camps often resulted in blood in the streets. Fights between factions were violent, it was not a beauty contest or about ideas for the future. It was strength. Who would fight the Israelis, who would stand against the Israelis, who would not surrender to the Israelis. The palestinians, as a people, were not really prepared for politics.

The election was none of Israel's fucking business.

Independent international observers stated the election was fair and democratic.

 

[Billo_Really]

If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now.

Why would it be lifted? Israel doesn't give a shit about international law.

But seeing as it follows the rules of international law it does not collectively punish the Palestinians.

You are one fucked up piece of shit!

Read the link I gave to the goods banned under International treaty and see that Israel is barely banning half of them. The only people collectively punishing the gazan people is hamas who steal all the goods coming in and sell it on the black market.

Israel has no right to ban any of them.

So where are the charge sheets issued by the ICC/ICJ detailing these alleged war crimes, without them you are LYING

You don't decide what is (and what is not) international law.

 

[Phoenall]

The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.

You're full of shit!

The Pals were beginning to have that government you claimed they should have, when Hamas and Fatah came to terms with their unity government. The Israeli's immediately told a bunch of bullshit lies and attacked Gaza.

In other words, Israel will not allow them to have an organizational government.

Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..

I have. You just don't have the stones to acknowledge it.

Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..

So when do the Pals get their casino's?

How is it that only those who read the white supremacist Nazi sites are the only ones that seem to believe that Israel has it in their power to stop hamas and fatah from unifying.

What posting half truths and propaganda on this board

As soon as they build them and stop spending their money on weapons to kill Jews with.

 

[Phoenall]

Hamas was taken by surprised. Palestinians were not prepared for government. Mostly those in power had been chosen not elected. Hamas was a militant group not a political one. It's leaders were a religious figure and military figure.
Everyone expected fatah to win, the way the election was run did not have a primary were one from each party were competing against each other. It was mostly fatah against fatah, with a few hamas thrown in the mix.
Israel wanted a political system to work for the palestinians, but had no control of the management of the elections. There were international overseers. Imagine one democrat against 20 republicans in a single election. It was like no election the palestinians had had before. Arafat had basically decided who was on the list. Without Arafat it became a free for all. Arafat had not been elected by the people but picked by the AL and had held power for so long the palestinians knew no one else. Elections locally in the camps often resulted in blood in the streets. Fights between factions were violent, it was not a beauty contest or about ideas for the future. It was strength. Who would fight the Israelis, who would stand against the Israelis, who would not surrender to the Israelis. The palestinians, as a people, were not really prepared for politics.

The election was none of Israel's fucking business.

Independent international observers stated the election was fair and democratic.

And just how did Israel interfere with the election or the results, specially with international observers in evidence

 

[Phoenall]

If that was the case then it would have been lifted by now.

Why would it be lifted? Israel doesn't give a shit about international law.

But seeing as it follows the rules of international law it does not collectively punish the Palestinians.

You are one fucked up piece of shit!

Read the link I gave to the goods banned under International treaty and see that Israel is barely banning half of them. The only people collectively punishing the gazan people is hamas who steal all the goods coming in and sell it on the black market.

Israel has no right to ban any of them.

So where are the charge sheets issued by the ICC/ICJ detailing these alleged war crimes, without them you are LYING

You don't decide what is (and what is not) international law.

How about a verifiable link from a non partisan source to prove your claim

Why because it is the truth and you cant handle the truth can you

Who says as International law gives them that right as a non violent means of stopping attacks.

Nor do you, yet you seem to think that you can when it deals with the Jews

 

[flacaltenn]

The DESIRE to do it ain't there. Organization is not a strongpoint in the Mid East. For 150 yrs the largest Pali setback has been the lack of organizational skills. The PA even got assistance from Israel to set-up and train it's police force. WHY would there be a restriction on re-opening SOME kind of governance?? You can't go from nothing to democracy in a year or two.. Form a National Committee out of the remains of the PA legislature.

You're full of shit!

The Pals were beginning to have that government you claimed they should have, when Hamas and Fatah came to terms with their unity government. The Israeli's immediately told a bunch of bullshit lies and attacked Gaza.

In other words, Israel will not allow them to have an organizational government.

Do SOMETHING -- other than moaning about how things get worse all the time..

I have. You just don't have the stones to acknowledge it.

Funny that American Indians on reservations had the same victim mentality until they learned the benefits of organizational skills. NOW -- they intend to win back America -- one roll of the dice at a time..

So when do the Pals get their casino's?

Dont think that plan would work. Jews and Scots are too tight with money... But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them, they might own the place in 20 years......

 

[Billo_Really]

Dont think that plan would work. Jews and Scots are too tight with money... But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them, they might own the place in 20 years......

I hate peas! Always have, always will.

How come I can't PM you?

 

[flacaltenn]

Seriously, you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
Also solve the fishing issue? FISH FARMING. Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.

But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon, and a battery of fish smokers.
Hell, Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.

 

[Phoenall]

Dont think that plan would work. Jews and Scots are too tight with money... But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them, they might own the place in 20 years......

I hate peas! Always have, always will.

How come I can't PM you?

Chick peas are not the same as green peas, they are an eastern delicacy

 

[flacaltenn]

Dont think that plan would work. Jews and Scots are too tight with money... But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them, they might own the place in 20 years......

I hate peas! Always have, always will.

How come I can't PM you?

Chick peas are not the same as green peas, they are an eastern delicacy

Imagine that. An expert on the I/P conflict that doesnt know how humus is made......

 

[Phoenall]

Seriously, you want the Palis to own Israel and have them eating out your hand?
Also solve the fishing issue? FISH FARMING. Its the kind of innovated solution the Israelis might come up with.

But in this case, the secret weapon would be salmon, and a battery of fish smokers.
Hell, Ive just shifted the balance of power in the Holy Land.

White fish are a better option as they are less polluting, salmon are a dirty fish prone to parasite infestations and need to be tended constantly. Sea bass are an option as they are protected and only farmed fish can be sold under 42 cm ( 16 inches ). I am sure that with Israel's help the Palestinians could have a thriving fish farm industry in no time and a ready market for all the fish they could farm

 

[Phoenall]

Dont think that plan would work. Jews and Scots are too tight with money... But if the Palis invented some bioengineered chick peas with garlic already in them, they might own the place in 20 years......

I hate peas! Always have, always will.

How come I can't PM you?

Chick peas are not the same as green peas, they are an eastern delicacy

Imagine that. An expert on the I/P conflict that doesnt know how humus is made......

I like them in soups just as they are, they add bulk, fibre and crunch