The high cost of unintended pregnancy

[koshergrl]

China punishes the parents, too. They beat them, drag them into the street, drug them, abort them, and sterilize them. Without permission, by force.

They also "inform" on those with unauthorized pregnancies.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Aren't you the same gal that favors forced sterilization of unauthorized immigrants?

 

[koshergrl]

Uh, no...

 

[koshergrl]

Aren't you the woman who thinks Christians should be banned from teaching and politics, and that raising a child as a Christian should constitute child abuse and result in the child being removed by the state?

Why yes, you are! I win!

 

[koshergrl]

Oh...and before you start sniveling...I'll make a pre-emptive strike lest I be considered an etiquette nazi ... for not offering a tissue? Well anyway, your analogy, not mine...here ya go honey, I know it's hard being you:

 

[Rinata]

50% of American women will have an unwanted pregnancy in their lifetime. Republicans want to force these women to bring their pregnancies to term. Unwanted children are MUCH more likely to be abused. Therefore, Republicans are pro child abuse.

And don't tell me an embryo is a person. If it was then the thousands of frozen embryos in fertility labs in this country would have the right to own guns.

Bullshit.

Are you kidding???? You conservatives just hate having your delusions challenged with the truth.

 

[Rinata]

What does Caylee Anthony have to do with abortion? Oh, it would have been better for her to be killed in the womb instead of 3 yrs later? Is that supposed to be some great solution or something? I guess i am missing something.

You can say that again.

 

[koshergrl]

Early murder is better than murdering them after you've spent money on them?

I think that's what he's saying.

 

[Rinata]

Sorry, you make about as much sense as a guppy. I'm not wrong, there is no 'WRONG" when it comes to defining a human. I provided the definition.

And the "you are pro child abuse" is just propaganda. Child abuse has nothing to do with the definition of human. You are pro-abortion..which is pro-infanticide.

Pssst...I have actually worked with abused children in a variety of different venues. And I don't mean as a volunteer. I know what causes child abuse. Trivializing life and perpetuating the myth that children are "mistakes" and "disposable" leads to child abuse. People who abuse children have no concept of the sanctity of life. They buy the garbage pigs like you like to spread around..that children are disposable, that they aren't really "alive", that it's okay to kill, maim and hurt them.

Congratulations.

How can you be so ignorant??? You consevatives want to take us right back to the stone age. Let's just keep having babies when we cannot afford them or have no time or energy to give a child. They will end up like Caylee Anthony. Or worse.

So youll murder your child whether in the womb or not? That's seriously messed up.

Good Lord!!! That is not at all what I said. Really?? Are you conservatives really this dumb or are you just being obtuse??? Are you trying to say that none of you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy or had an abortion?? Save it. I don't believe it. You people lie all the time. I am finally figuring that out. You would love for liberals to think you wouldn't say "shit" if you had a mouthful. Phonies.

 

[g5000]

How can you be so ignorant??? You consevatives want to take us right back to the stone age. Let's just keep having babies when we cannot afford them or have no time or energy to give a child. They will end up like Caylee Anthony. Or worse.

So youll murder your child whether in the womb or not? That's seriously messed up.

Good Lord!!! That is not at all what I said. Really?? Are you conservatives really this dumb or are you just being obtuse??? Are you trying to say that none of you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy or had an abortion?? Save it. I don't believe it. You people lie all the time. I am finally figuring that out. You would love for liberals to think you wouldn't say "shit" if you had a mouthful. Phonies.

I am pro-life and have never caused a pregnancy that resulted in abortion. You think we don't walk the walk?

I have a child who was the result of an unwanted pregnancy. My wife got pregnant when we had four month old twins and I had just been laid off from my job. She was unable to use birth control at the time due to complications from her pregnancy with the twins. Anyway, with two newborns and no job, the new pregnancy was the worst possible timing. We were exhausted and financially strapped. We were on the verge of losing our house.

Christ, we had planned on ONE baby, and ended up with TWO. And then a THIRD. In fourteen months!

It disgusted me how many of our friends suggested abortion.

We had the child, and I cannot imagine what life would be without her. She is the most precious thing in the world and I would die for her and her siblings.

So don't even THINK about accusing a pro-lifer of being phony, asshole, unless you have facts.

Children are far more precious than any temporary inconvenience they might cause. Some people bitch and give up too easily.

Instead of killing your baby, you should try raising him or her and loving him or her. You won't regret it.

 

[Rinata]

So youll murder your child whether in the womb or not? That's seriously messed up.

Good Lord!!! That is not at all what I said. Really?? Are you conservatives really this dumb or are you just being obtuse??? Are you trying to say that none of you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy or had an abortion?? Save it. I don't believe it. You people lie all the time. I am finally figuring that out. You would love for liberals to think you wouldn't say "shit" if you had a mouthful. Phonies.

I am pro-life and have never caused a pregnancy that resulted in abortion. You think we don't walk the walk?I have a child who was the result of an unwanted pregnancy. My wife got pregnant when we had four month old twins and I had just been laid off from my job. She was unable to use birth control at the time due to complications from her pregnancy with the twins. Anyway, with two newborns and no job, the new pregnancy was the worst possible timing. We were exhausted and financially strapped. We were on the verge of losing our house.

Christ, we had planned on ONE baby, and ended up with TWO. And then a THIRD. In fourteen months!

It disgusted me how many of our friends suggested abortion.

We had the child, and I cannot imagine what life would be without her. She is the most precious thing in the world and I would die for her and her siblings.

So don't even THINK about accusing a pro-lifer of being phony, asshole, unless you have facts.

Children are far more precious than any temporary inconvenience they might cause. Some people bitch and give up too easily.

Instead of killing your baby, you should try raising him or her and loving him or her. You won't regret it.

Yes, that is exactly what I think, you pompous ass. Maybe your story is true and maybe it isn't. I will never be convinced that the whole lot of you does not use birth control and has never had an abortion. Think about it. It doesn't even make sense.

 

[g5000]

Good Lord!!! That is not at all what I said. Really?? Are you conservatives really this dumb or are you just being obtuse??? Are you trying to say that none of you ever experienced an unwanted pregnancy or had an abortion?? Save it. I don't believe it. You people lie all the time. I am finally figuring that out. You would love for liberals to think you wouldn't say "shit" if you had a mouthful. Phonies.

I am pro-life and have never caused a pregnancy that resulted in abortion. You think we don't walk the walk?I have a child who was the result of an unwanted pregnancy. My wife got pregnant when we had four month old twins and I had just been laid off from my job. She was unable to use birth control at the time due to complications from her pregnancy with the twins. Anyway, with two newborns and no job, the new pregnancy was the worst possible timing. We were exhausted and financially strapped. We were on the verge of losing our house.

Christ, we had planned on ONE baby, and ended up with TWO. And then a THIRD. In fourteen months!

It disgusted me how many of our friends suggested abortion.

We had the child, and I cannot imagine what life would be without her. She is the most precious thing in the world and I would die for her and her siblings.

So don't even THINK about accusing a pro-lifer of being phony, asshole, unless you have facts.

Children are far more precious than any temporary inconvenience they might cause. Some people bitch and give up too easily.

Instead of killing your baby, you should try raising him or her and loving him or her. You won't regret it.

Yes, that is exactly what I think, you pompous ass. Maybe your story is true and maybe it isn't. I will never be convinced that the whole lot of you does not use birth control and has never had an abortion. Think about it. It doesn't even make sense.

Why does it not make sense that pro-lifers don't get abortions? Are you so hypocritical yourself you can't imagine others aren't, or something?

There are people in this world who do walk the walk. They follow their morals and live by them as much as humanly possible.

And why do you assume pro-lifers don't use birth control? Most people use birth control. Only a small fraction of pro-lifers don't.

Being pro-life means not aborting a child in the womb. It has nothing to do with using the Pill. Don't conflate the two. The morality of the Pill is a separate issue.

Pro-lifers are a slim majority. People who think the Pill is immoral are a very tiny minority.

If you go back a few pages, you will find a very long post by me asking my fellow pro-lifers to give serious consideration to coming up with a plan to increase the use of the Pill to cut down on the number of abortions. You will also find some very longs posts by me providing evidence that the number of abortions would be virtually unchanged if Roe v. Wade were overturned and it is therefore a good idea to direct our energies to actually doing something which will actually decrease the number of abortions, and the best way to do that is to increase birth control usage.

I strongly believe pro-lifers and pro-choicers can find middle ground here. I believe the overly emotional and the fanatical on both sides have dominated the abortion issue for way, way too long.

Is THAT pompous enough for you?

 

[Gagafritz]

Her goal was to reduce the African American population.

Sanger?

Ironically progressive support the racist Nazi while calling others Nazi's.

Try, again.

It's you folks who've laid claim to.....

.....Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand? What does that have to do with anything? You are all over the place. And, for the record, i am not a fan of Ayn Rand.

 

[FA_Q2]

and before you take me down the "consciousness" and "self aware" path, let me explain to you..I don't give a shit how YOU define human being. It has no validity. I protect the rights of ALL humans, whether self aware, whether conscious, or not, to live.

That means I don't subscribe to euthanasia, assisted suicide, the death penalty, or abortion. All are just code words for "let's kill the ones we determine have no value to US."

I don't grade humans based upon their value to you. Human is human, and each human has a right to life that is given him by his CREATOR. Not by you.

Not totally true though. The fact is that we kill people regularly that are no longer capable of thought aka - brain dead. These people are capable of living quite a long time if kept on machines that support life yet we pull the plug and allow these people to die. That is mostly because they might be human but they have ceased to be a 'person' and no longer are afforded the same status. In the same manner, embryos are not self sustaining and require the woman as a form of life support. They are fundamentally different in the fact that they will become a person though and that separates them from the 'they aren't a person' argument as they clearly are going to be a person.


The problem is in the end result though. The fact is that illegalizing abortion simply is not tenable. As has been pointed out, abortions are still going to occur and there is nothing that you can do about it. It is far better for those to happen under the supervision of a physician rather than the 'back ally' abortions of the past. No amount of foot stomping the pro life position is going to change the fact that the woman has control over her body no matter what the government or anyone else has to say about the matter. She has that power by simply being. She chooses what to eat, when to exercise, when to sleep and any number of things she can do in any of those categories can cause a miscarriage aka 'accidental' abortion. The best thing we can do is to bring the issue into the light and regulate it. Make certain requirements for abortion like time frames to help eliminate late term abortions.

What isn't true? That I reject the concept of "you're not human unless I find it convenient for you to be human"?

No, what is not entirely true is the fact that there are situations that warrant ending human life. You, admittedly, are consistent in your views when you stand against euthanasia and the death penalty but society generally has no issues with ending the life of someone that has no chance of ever regaining consciousness. The Shivo (I believe that is the correct example) case is an example as well as cases of brain dead people taken off life support. In general, a 'person' is defined by the fact they are conscious. Before you explode on me I want to point out that I make a distinction between the unborn and these cases because there is an inherent difference so don't go saying that I support abortion because of the aforementioned. It was merely pointing out that human and person are slightly different. DNA alone does not a person make. It is our minds that make us people.

If you support abortion, at any stage, you support abortion. Women have control over their bodies, this is true. But no matter how much foot stomping the baby killers engage in, control over their own bodies DOES NOT extend to control over life and death of another. It is no more acceptable to kill a baby residing in your body than it is to kill a baby residing in a crib next to your bed.

It's the same thing. It's just a matter of where the real estate is located.

Sure, but that real estate is quite important. I never said I did not support abortion so yes, supporting killing an unborn child at any stage is, obviously, supporting abortion. However, in these cases, control over your body sure and the hell does give you control over another's life. It might be wrong but it is completely unenforceable. Illegal abortions are not going to stop people killing their babies. Do you really think that someone that is WILLING TO KILL un unborn child is really going to abstain from doing so because papa government says you should not do it? Do you really think there is ANYTHING the government can do to enforce that law? Fact is, the answer is NO! If you are willing to take that life, it is going to happen. The best way to alleviate the issue is through education and basic regulation, not illegalizing it. Illegalizing things takes control AWAY, not the other way areound.


I should point out that abortion is wrong. War is wrong. People getting killed is wrong. All are realities and we need to figure out the best possible way to deal with reality.

NO, it's not obvious, and the statistics show that it hasn't happened at all so far.

The STATISTICS show increased teen pregnancy, out of wedlock births, and abortion...despite the availability of free contraceptives and legal abortions. Your mantra is a lie that is promoted by the liberal mob, and has ABSOLUTELY no basis in fact.

No, the statistics do not say what you are making them say. That is the problem with relying on statistical analysis, those numbers did not come in a vacuum. They came with a million other variables. A few of which should be obvious frontrunners in the problems you cite. Parenting and the continual overturning of parental responsibilities (like sexual education) to the school system where children are not taught MORALITIES but just force fed crap. The breakdown of the family (to include the breakdown of what marriage used to mean). The move to the new ME culture of entitlements and no responsibilities. The move away from a parent in the home and a parent that works. The breakdown of relationships from more distant family members (like grandparents). The resistance to actually get sexuality in the open rather than suppress it as forbidden fruit. These are all things that have been occurring, mostly involving a mass failure on modern parents, that I would attribute as FAR more impacting to current teen pregnancy rates and abortion rates overall. The piss poor system of abortions without some sort of education beforehand would also be in there for me. I certainly would not attribute it to access to birth control. You might as well blame continental drift. Making that connection to birth control is a case of Correlation not implying causation.

Abortion is a BOON for men not women. It is a way for men to engage in irresponsible behavior without consequences. In general, men choose younger partners. It is easy to manipulate and prey upon the emotions of a young woman in a vulnerable state. Then, push her into a life altering decision for both herself and child the ramifications of which are permanent.

What kind of asinine bullshit sexist crap is this. Abortion has nothing to do with the man. As a matter of fact, while a woman has the ability to completely ignore the consequences for her actions, the man is 100 percent beholden to whatever the woman decides whether or not he wants the child. She can abort, his ass is on the line no matter what if she decides not to. The abortion debate (at least at this stage) has nothing to do with the man.

Eventually the Prolifers will outbreed the ProAbortion crowd so it is a self solving problem!

Now THAT is a funny observation.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes, the stats DO support what I said, but it's hard to speak to that as you simply say that they don't, then go on to talk about other things that in no way support your statement that the stats on increased abortion/teen pregnancy etc. are bogus.

 

[Flopper]

The best way to avoid abortions, overpopulation and the resulting problems is birth control. I can't understand why anyone would be against birth control. It doesn't make sense.

Once a woman becomes pregnant, she will be able get an abortion regardless of laws in the US. It would be almost impossible to keep RU-486 out of the country. Abortions are legal in Canada, most of Europe and many other countries. If abortions become illegal in the US, the wealthy or anyone who can raise the money can easily arrange a legal abortion outside the US. For the poor, it would mean more unwanted children or backstreet abortions.

 

[koshergrl]

No, that is a LOGICAL FALLACY. Birth control is available, and free, and has been increasingly so for decades...and yet the abortion rate has climbed exponentially all through that time period.

Please explain how increased access to birth control reduces abortion, when we have the numbers that prove otherwise. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

Birth control fails, a LOT. And women are lulled into a false sense of security, which means they are more careless, because they think that they won't get pregnant. So they engage in riskier behavior than they would WITHOUT the safety net of birth control. The result is more women who absolutely DON'T want children have sex based on the fact that they think there's no chance they'll get pregnant...and then when they DO get pregnant, they hustle off to the clinic for an abortion.

And the whole concept of "overpopulation" is also a logical fallacy. We aren't overpopulated. We have issues with food distribution and tyrannical regimes, and oppression of nomadic people...but that's NOT the same as "overpopulation". Those populations are dying out because they are being encouraged to have fewer children...yet they continue to die at an accelerated rate. It's eugenics, and genocide besides. It's not based upon concern for those people, nor is it based upon concern for children. Children don't "benefit" from abortion, that's idiotic. And by "overpopulation" you just mean "too many of a particular group of people". Call it what it is.

 

[Rinata]

I am pro-life and have never caused a pregnancy that resulted in abortion. You think we don't walk the walk?I have a child who was the result of an unwanted pregnancy. My wife got pregnant when we had four month old twins and I had just been laid off from my job. She was unable to use birth control at the time due to complications from her pregnancy with the twins. Anyway, with two newborns and no job, the new pregnancy was the worst possible timing. We were exhausted and financially strapped. We were on the verge of losing our house.

Christ, we had planned on ONE baby, and ended up with TWO. And then a THIRD. In fourteen months!

It disgusted me how many of our friends suggested abortion.

We had the child, and I cannot imagine what life would be without her. She is the most precious thing in the world and I would die for her and her siblings.

So don't even THINK about accusing a pro-lifer of being phony, asshole, unless you have facts.

Children are far more precious than any temporary inconvenience they might cause. Some people bitch and give up too easily.

Instead of killing your baby, you should try raising him or her and loving him or her. You won't regret it.

Yes, that is exactly what I think, you pompous ass. Maybe your story is true and maybe it isn't. I will never be convinced that the whole lot of you does not use birth control and has never had an abortion. Think about it. It doesn't even make sense.

Why does it not make sense that pro-lifers don't get abortions? Are you so hypocritical yourself you can't imagine others aren't, or something?

There are people in this world who do walk the walk. They follow their morals and live by them as much as humanly possible.

And why do you assume pro-lifers don't use birth control? Most people use birth control. Only a small fraction of pro-lifers don't.

Being pro-life means not aborting a child in the womb. It has nothing to do with using the Pill. Don't conflate the two. The morality of the Pill is a separate issue.

Pro-lifers are a slim majority. People who think the Pill is immoral are a very tiny minority.

If you go back a few pages, you will find a very long post by me asking my fellow pro-lifers to give serious consideration to coming up with a plan to increase the use of the Pill to cut down on the number of abortions. You will also find some very longs posts by me providing evidence that the number of abortions would be virtually unchanged if Roe v. Wade were overturned and it is therefore a good idea to direct our energies to actually doing something which will actually decrease the number of abortions, and the best way to do that is to increase birth control usage.

I strongly believe pro-lifers and pro-choicers can find middle ground here. I believe the overly emotional and the fanatical on both sides have dominated the abortion issue for way, way too long.

Is THAT pompous enough for you?

No. For the last time, do you expect anybody to believe that you and your fellow pompous asses have NEVER had an abortion?? That is what you would like us to think, and it's crap.

 

[Rinata]

No, that is a LOGICAL FALLACY. Birth control is available, and free, and has been increasingly so for decades...and yet the abortion rate has climbed exponentially all through that time period.
Please explain how increased access to birth control reduces abortion, when we have the numbers that prove otherwise. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

Birth control fails, a LOT. And women are lulled into a false sense of security, which means they are more careless, because they think that they won't get pregnant. So they engage in riskier behavior than they would WITHOUT the safety net of birth control. The result is more women who absolutely DON'T want children have sex based on the fact that they think there's no chance they'll get pregnant...and then when they DO get pregnant, they hustle off to the clinic for an abortion.

And the whole concept of "overpopulation" is also a logical fallacy. We aren't overpopulated. We have issues with food distribution and tyrannical regimes, and oppression of nomadic people...but that's NOT the same as "overpopulation". Those populations are dying out because they are being encouraged to have fewer children...yet they continue to die at an accelerated rate. It's eugenics, and genocide besides. It's not based upon concern for those people, nor is it based upon concern for children. Children don't "benefit" from abortion, that's idiotic. And by "overpopulation" you just mean "too many of a particular group of people". Call it what it is.

Proof???

 

[Flopper]

No, that is a LOGICAL FALLACY. Birth control is available, and free, and has been increasingly so for decades...and yet the abortion rate has climbed exponentially all through that time period.

I see nothing to support your contention that abortions are rising at an exponential rate. In fact, most statistics paint a much different picture. The abortion rate in the United States dropped 8 percent between 2000 and 2008, while rising nearly 18 percent among the country's poorest women -- a trend that researchers believe might reflect tough economic times.

U.S. ABORTION RATE CONTINUES LONG-TERM DECLINE, FALLING TO LOWEST LEVEL SINCE 1974. In 2005, the U.S. abortion rate declined to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44, continuing the downward trend that started after the abortion rate peaked at 29.3 in 1981.

Do have anything to support your claim or is it just B.S.