The fallacy of left versus right and partisan hackery

[Nicholas_1982]

Social Security is a safety net/insurance - a valuable lesson learned from the Great Depression. Wall Street would love to get their greedy little hands on it.

yes but it's not that simple. the problem is that the government mandates that they borrow against the yearly surplus. Which is the complete lie as to how clinton balanced the budget in the late 1990's. His budget was only balanced once we consumed the SS surplus.

The reason its a problem is because the trust fund is only worth something if the government remains solvent. Now i am aware that current figures have the fund solvent for at least another decade, some economists put it closer to 2 decades. So we have at max 20 years to wipe out the national debt? Ok then lets do that, lets start cutting spending with small increases in revenue to pay down the debt. if we can get that deficit knocked out and we can get some of the mandatory spending laws reworked instead of trying to ONLY cut discretionary spending every year.

The republican problem is they want a simple solution to a complex problem. We need to cut spending while looking at our revenue stream and cuts to not only discretionary spending

The Social Security Trust Funds are invested in U.S. government securities that pay interest to the funds - just like with China and Japan who like the investment safety of U.S. government securities. Social Security is by far the largest holder of U.S. debt.

BTW, if the U.S. became "insolvent" - what would be worth anything? Dollars? Gold? Guns? Food? Survival?

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

yes but it's not that simple. the problem is that the government mandates that they borrow against the yearly surplus. Which is the complete lie as to how clinton balanced the budget in the late 1990's. His budget was only balanced once we consumed the SS surplus.

The reason its a problem is because the trust fund is only worth something if the government remains solvent. Now i am aware that current figures have the fund solvent for at least another decade, some economists put it closer to 2 decades. So we have at max 20 years to wipe out the national debt? Ok then lets do that, lets start cutting spending with small increases in revenue to pay down the debt. if we can get that deficit knocked out and we can get some of the mandatory spending laws reworked instead of trying to ONLY cut discretionary spending every year.

The republican problem is they want a simple solution to a complex problem. We need to cut spending while looking at our revenue stream and cuts to not only discretionary spending

The Social Security Trust Funds are invested in U.S. government securities that pay interest to the funds - just like with China and Japan who like the investment safety of U.S. government securities. Social Security is by far the largest holder of U.S. debt.

BTW, if the U.S. became "insolvent" - what would be worth anything? Dollars? Gold? Guns? Food? Survival?

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

What the hell is the big deal? SS simply needs some tuning and tweaking just like it always has. It shouldn't be used as a scare tactic. One thing that would help would be if Republicans stopped lying about it and trying to scare the shit out of everyone - especially old people.

ok so suggestions on tweeking?

 

[Lakhota]

yes but it's not that simple. the problem is that the government mandates that they borrow against the yearly surplus. Which is the complete lie as to how clinton balanced the budget in the late 1990's. His budget was only balanced once we consumed the SS surplus.

The reason its a problem is because the trust fund is only worth something if the government remains solvent. Now i am aware that current figures have the fund solvent for at least another decade, some economists put it closer to 2 decades. So we have at max 20 years to wipe out the national debt? Ok then lets do that, lets start cutting spending with small increases in revenue to pay down the debt. if we can get that deficit knocked out and we can get some of the mandatory spending laws reworked instead of trying to ONLY cut discretionary spending every year.

The republican problem is they want a simple solution to a complex problem. We need to cut spending while looking at our revenue stream and cuts to not only discretionary spending

The Social Security Trust Funds are invested in U.S. government securities that pay interest to the funds - just like with China and Japan who like the investment safety of U.S. government securities. Social Security is by far the largest holder of U.S. debt.

BTW, if the U.S. became "insolvent" - what would be worth anything? Dollars? Gold? Guns? Food? Survival?

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

The Social Security Trust Funds are invested in U.S. government securities that pay interest to the funds - just like with China and Japan who like the investment safety of U.S. government securities. Social Security is by far the largest holder of U.S. debt.

BTW, if the U.S. became "insolvent" - what would be worth anything? Dollars? Gold? Guns? Food? Survival?

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

What the hell is the big deal? SS simply needs some tuning and tweaking just like it always has. It shouldn't be used as a scare tactic. One thing that would help would be if Republicans stopped lying about it and trying to scare the shit out of everyone - especially old people.

ok so suggestions on tweeking?

You just listed two. Raising cap and means testing.

 

[Nicholas_1982]

and watch, now i will be forever labeled a socialist on this forum

 

[Lakhota]

I like Bernie on this issue, raise the cap on taxed income and then I like what I think rand Paul said, means test it, SS only not medicaid

and who am I scaring, i am talking about the budget as a whole, not just social security. I don't think we can balance the budget and pay down the debt on the backs of SS recipients

Well, if you're going to start conflating Social Security with balancing the budget - I'm outta here. The government doesn't pay for Social Security - therefore it doesn't contribute to the deficit or national debt. Goodnight...

 

[Nicholas_1982]

The Social Security Trust Funds are invested in U.S. government securities that pay interest to the funds - just like with China and Japan who like the investment safety of U.S. government securities. Social Security is by far the largest holder of U.S. debt.

BTW, if the U.S. became "insolvent" - what would be worth anything? Dollars? Gold? Guns? Food? Survival?

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

right the US government borrowed the surplus in the form of treasuries. but you are 68, you know that when SS began the ratio of people paying in to the program versus people drawing benefits was much much higher than now. Now, betting that the government stays solvent and doesnt default on debt is a safe call. That doesnt mean the system is exempt from reform. ultimately the trust fund will be depleted.

I have heard numerous options so I am not going to propose a new idea because frankly I am not qualified to do that. so lets just talk about current options.

1. raise the cap on income from $117k
2. means test benefits
3. raise retirement age
4. cut benefits
5. changes to COLA
6. legalize all immigrants and tax their income
7. abolish SS and stop paying benefits
8. full or partial privatization with a grandfather period

now, none of these alone will get us where we need to be so we would need a combination and any combination will invariably piss off quite a few people. SS really is the 3rd rail of american politics. the minute you mess with it you can kiss your political career goodbye

Don't fuck with Granny.

I agree, we can't abolish the social safety net but if we are serious about the debt and deficits I am willing to put all options on the table. Cuts and revenue increases.

Would you be on board with that

What the hell is the big deal? SS simply needs some tuning and tweaking just like it always has. It shouldn't be used as a scare tactic. One thing that would help would be if Republicans stopped lying about it and trying to scare the shit out of everyone - especially old people.

ok so suggestions on tweeking?

You just listed two. Raising cap and means testing.

I like Bernie on this issue, raise the cap on taxed income and then I like what I think rand Paul said, means test it, SS only not medicaid

and who am I scaring, i am talking about the budget as a whole, not just social security. I don't think we can balance the budget and pay down the debt on the backs of SS recipients

Well, if you're going to start conflating Social Security with balancing the budget - I'm outta here. The government doesn't pay for Social Security - therefore it doesn't contribute to the deficit or national debt. Goodnight...

Thats not entirely true and you know that. once the trust fund is depeleted, remember that the ratio or payers to recievers is much lower than it used to be and if I am not mistaken SS is currently drawing off the trust fund now and the ratio is a little less than 3 to 1. anyway assuming the conservative estimate of 10 years till the fund is depleted unless something changes the government will be making up the difference.

Once the trust fund is depleted depending on which figure you go off of, and we make no changes to the program then the government will have to make up the difference correct?

 

[ninja007]

I came to this board recently because the last board I was on consisted of 95% partisan flaming. I am getting the same feeling this board is very much the same. Everyone is committed to a team and refuses to side with the people. I get that Fox and NBC and CBS and ABC have convinced most of you that the fight in this country is republican vs democrat but thats just not true. The red blue divide only exists to drive conflict and sensationalism, thereby distracting us from real issues. Sure there are some differences between the 2 parties but not substantial differences.

Let's look at the main policy areas and how the 2 parties differ.

Iraq War - bipartisan congressional approval to invade the middle east and afghanistan
Gun Control - republicans hate regulations and democrafts have not attempted any new gun legislation in years
Patriot Act - Bipartisan support
Drone Warfare - Barack Obama loves it, republicans love it
War on drugs - both sides agree its a failure and want to reform prisons
campaign finance - (except for bernie sanders) all the frontrunners love super pacs
government spending - repubs and dems love more spending (they just disagree on what to spend it on) just look at the budgets

the real fight should be corruption versus truth. thats the real problem for government in this country

noticed lib you left out immigration, the most important thing.

 

[kaz]

I came to this board recently because the last board I was on consisted of 95% partisan flaming. I am getting the same feeling this board is very much the same. Everyone is committed to a team and refuses to side with the people. I get that Fox and NBC and CBS and ABC have convinced most of you that the fight in this country is republican vs democrat but thats just not true. The red blue divide only exists to drive conflict and sensationalism, thereby distracting us from real issues. Sure there are some differences between the 2 parties but not substantial differences.

Let's look at the main policy areas and how the 2 parties differ.

Iraq War - bipartisan congressional approval to invade the middle east and afghanistan
Gun Control - republicans hate regulations and democrafts have not attempted any new gun legislation in years
Patriot Act - Bipartisan support
Drone Warfare - Barack Obama loves it, republicans love it
War on drugs - both sides agree its a failure and want to reform prisons
campaign finance - (except for bernie sanders) all the frontrunners love super pacs
government spending - repubs and dems love more spending (they just disagree on what to spend it on) just look at the budgets

the real fight should be corruption versus truth. thats the real problem for government in this country

Mostly, yes, both parties attack each other on those issues and support their own party when they do the exact same thing as the other party. That's why I left the Republican party circa 1990, and zero has changed. There is no real difference, only window dressing and lots of words

 

[Mac1958]

I came to this board recently because the last board I was on consisted of 95% partisan flaming. I am getting the same feeling this board is very much the same. Everyone is committed to a team and refuses to side with the people. I get that Fox and NBC and CBS and ABC have convinced most of you that the fight in this country is republican vs democrat but thats just not true. The red blue divide only exists to drive conflict and sensationalism, thereby distracting us from real issues.

Amen. Welcome!

The most ironic (and amusing!) thing to me is how similar the two "ends" are in their behaviors, and they just hate to hear that. The last thing they want is to be compared to those they so loathe.

This place provides an excellent microcosm of the larger American political landscape, sadly, and is always a fascinating amateur psychological / sociological / anthropological study.

It could be argued that the "real" battle is between those whose very thought processes are distorted & paralyzed by a hardcore partisan ideology and those who choose to think for themselves.
.

 

[Rotagilla]

Nicholas_1982, who do you support for president? Do you know yet? I'm Hillary all the way - for two reasons: 1) She's the best available and 2) because NaziCons hate her.

revenge politics...just elect ANYbody the "other side" "hates"...great way to run a country. What could POSSIBLY go wrong? LMAO
No matter...unless we clean out the illegals, stop importing these somalian and syrian "refugees" and start enforcing our border and our laws, this country is done anyway.
All three branches of government are corrupt beyond redemption.Only useful idiots really believe one side is "better" than the other..Career politicians...like hillary...are the problem..Only a fool would believe that the way to stop corrupt career politicians from wrecking the country is to elect..ANOTHER career politician...
Let it all collapse and we'll build another, smaller nation of patriots out of what remains.

 

[Nicholas_1982]

Nicholas_1982, who do you support for president? Do you know yet? I'm Hillary all the way - for two reasons: 1) She's the best available and 2) because NaziCons hate her.

revenge politics...just elect ANYbody the "other side" "hates"...great way to run a country. What could POSSIBLY go wrong? LMAO
No matter...unless we clean out the illegals, stop importing these somalian and syrian "refugees" and start enforcing our border and our laws, this country is done anyway.
All three branches of government are corrupt beyond redemption.Only useful idiots really believe one side is "better" than the other..Career politicians...like hillary...are the problem..Only a fool would believe that the way to stop corrupt career politicians from wrecking the country is to elect..ANOTHER career politician...
Let it all collapse and we'll build another, smaller nation of patriots out of what remains.

partisan hack and fearmonger

 

[Nicholas_1982]

I came to this board recently because the last board I was on consisted of 95% partisan flaming. I am getting the same feeling this board is very much the same. Everyone is committed to a team and refuses to side with the people. I get that Fox and NBC and CBS and ABC have convinced most of you that the fight in this country is republican vs democrat but thats just not true. The red blue divide only exists to drive conflict and sensationalism, thereby distracting us from real issues. Sure there are some differences between the 2 parties but not substantial differences.

Let's look at the main policy areas and how the 2 parties differ.

Iraq War - bipartisan congressional approval to invade the middle east and afghanistan
Gun Control - republicans hate regulations and democrafts have not attempted any new gun legislation in years
Patriot Act - Bipartisan support
Drone Warfare - Barack Obama loves it, republicans love it
War on drugs - both sides agree its a failure and want to reform prisons
campaign finance - (except for bernie sanders) all the frontrunners love super pacs
government spending - repubs and dems love more spending (they just disagree on what to spend it on) just look at the budgets

the real fight should be corruption versus truth. thats the real problem for government in this country

noticed lib you left out immigration, the most important thing.

ok immigration. bush and reagan both gave illegals a pass. reagan gave 3 million immigrants amnesty, bush gave sanctuary to youth from central america.

liberals love the minority vote, corporate republicans love cheap labor

 

[Rotagilla]

Nicholas_1982, who do you support for president? Do you know yet? I'm Hillary all the way - for two reasons: 1) She's the best available and 2) because NaziCons hate her.

revenge politics...just elect ANYbody the "other side" "hates"...great way to run a country. What could POSSIBLY go wrong? LMAO
No matter...unless we clean out the illegals, stop importing these somalian and syrian "refugees" and start enforcing our border and our laws, this country is done anyway.
All three branches of government are corrupt beyond redemption.Only useful idiots really believe one side is "better" than the other..Career politicians...like hillary...are the problem..Only a fool would believe that the way to stop corrupt career politicians from wrecking the country is to elect..ANOTHER career politician...
Let it all collapse and we'll build another, smaller nation of patriots out of what remains.

partisan hack and fearmonger

Fearmonger? Partisan?..LMAO..I just said both parties and all three branches of government are irredeemably corrupt...

Maybe you can explain how that's "partisan"....