The Erosion of Individual Responsibility

[JakeStarkey]

No, we are not going there. You made an unsupported statement, son. Until you defend it with evidence and documentation, you are in a fail position.

 

[Christopher]

No, we are not going there. You made an unsupported statement, son. Until you defend it with evidence and documentation, you are in a fail position.

My statement was that the welfare system does not teach individual responsibility as effectively as just individuals freely helping others. That is just reality.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

No, we are not going there. You made an unsupported statement, son. Until you defend it with evidence and documentation, you are in a fail position.

My statement was that the welfare system does not teach individual responsibility as effectively as just individuals freely helping others. That is just reality.

I would have to agree with this statement. The State in no way shape or form can teach values or personal responsibility to individuals who are already into adulthood. If they didn't learn it from their parents or peers growing up then it's unlikely they will ever learn it...barring some unforeseen disaster that is...when something like that happens people either get smart real quick or else!

 

[Christopher]

I am a liberal who takes responsibility for my self, my family and my employees. I pay more than my fair share of taxes both personal and business.
The taxes fund government programs that many conservatives take advantage of. I donate to many private charities.

I spend my time taking responsibility for my self and others rather than ripping the government that has provided me the opportunity to have the success I have had.

The tea baggers sound like the hippie radicals of the 60's who hated our government.

You just said earlier you are a moderate. Which is it?

Where I fall on the political spectrum depends on the issue.

Some issues I am considered liberal, some issues I am considered conservative and some issues I am considered moderate. Overall I am a moderate.

If you turn your thinking over to one political philkosophy you give up the ability for critical thinking on an issue.

So, on the issue of individual responsibility you said you are a liberal. Also, from what you have said in this thread, when it comes to supporting Obama you are a moderate. I see what you are saying with your last sentence.

 

[Richard-H]

In a capitalist society, there is no mandate for "responsibily" of any kind. Capitalism is based on the expectation of pure selfishness.

Notice how nobody holds the private sector responsible for the state economy?

Notice how conservatives insist that the government stay out of economics, yet continue to blame the liberal governement for the state of the economy?

Notice how the very executives that caused this economic crisis continued to be rewarded with outrageous compensation?

Individual Responsibilty?!?!?

PLEASE!

This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that we're talking about!

We'll have NO SUCH THING HERE!!!!!!!

 

[Christopher]

In a capitalist society, there is no mandate for "responsibily" of any kind. Capitalism is based on the expectation of pure selfishness.

Notice how nobody holds the private sector responsible for the state economy?

Notice how conservatives insist that the government stay out of economics, yet continue to blame the liberal governement for the state of the economy?

Notice how the very executives that caused this economic crisis continued to be rewarded with outrageous compensation?

Individual Responsibilty?!?!?

PLEASE!

This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that we're talking about!

We'll have NO SUCH THING HERE!!!!!!!

If the government would not label companies as too big to fail, that would be a start. The steel industry came asking for a bail out a few decades ago. What happened? The government said no. What happened to the steel industry? It recovered on its own.

When a precedence is set that a company knows they will be bailed out by the government, it creates a moral hazard in the market. Yes, the companies should be held responsible, and the way to make sure they are held responsible is by not bailing them out in the first place.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, we are not going there. You made an unsupported statement, son. Until you defend it with evidence and documentation, you are in a fail position.

My statement was that the welfare system does not teach individual responsibility as effectively as just individuals freely helping others. That is just reality.

That is merely your unsupported opinion, and not all opinions are informed or equal. Let's move along then.

 

[Richard-H]

In a capitalist society, there is no mandate for "responsibily" of any kind. Capitalism is based on the expectation of pure selfishness.

Notice how nobody holds the private sector responsible for the state economy?

Notice how conservatives insist that the government stay out of economics, yet continue to blame the liberal governement for the state of the economy?

Notice how the very executives that caused this economic crisis continued to be rewarded with outrageous compensation?

Individual Responsibilty?!?!?

PLEASE!

This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that we're talking about!

We'll have NO SUCH THING HERE!!!!!!!

If the government would not label companies as too big to fail, that would be a start. The steel industry came asking for a bail out a few decades ago. What happened? The government said no. What happened to the steel industry? It recovered on its own.

When a precedence is set that a company knows they will be bailed out by the government, it creates a moral hazard in the market. Yes, the companies should be held responsible, and the way to make sure they are held responsible is by not bailing them out in the first place.

What's with you and this whole "Responsibilty" thing?

THIS IS AMERICA! THERE WILL BE NO RESPOSIBILTY ALLOWED!

Not the people, not the private sector, not the government, nada, no responsibilty!

That's the way it is.

For as long as we are the world's dominant military super power, and there are few suckers willing to join the military, we have no need for this "Responsibilty" thing that you keep talking about.

It's everybody for themselves and to hell with everyone else, and if you don't like it we'll bomb you.

That's the American way!

What are you some kind of a liberal, socialist, anti-war, anti-American faggot?

Responsibilty, ugh!

Next thing you'll be saying is that Catholic Priests aren't supposed to be having sex with little boys!

 

[PatekPhilippe]

No, we are not going there. You made an unsupported statement, son. Until you defend it with evidence and documentation, you are in a fail position.

My statement was that the welfare system does not teach individual responsibility as effectively as just individuals freely helping others. That is just reality.

That is merely your unsupported opinion, and not all opinions are informed or equal. Let's move along then.

and it's YOUR unsupported opinion that the State does in fact teach personal responsibility?

 

[JakeStarkey]

No need to rebut until you give something to support a need for rebuttal.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

No need to rebut until you give something to support a need for rebuttal.

That's what I thought....you have nothing to back up anything you have said...let's move along now....who's next?

 

[JakeStarkey]

PP, I don't have to back up anything because you have given nothing other than your opinion to rebut. And I have done that: you are wrong. Let's move on.

 

[PatekPhilippe]

PP, I don't have to back up anything because you have given nothing other than your opinion to rebut. And I have done that: you are wrong. Let's move on.

Prove it!

 

[uscitizen]

I posted something similar to this in another forum and wanted to see other’s thoughts on this. Over the last decade I have noticed a pattern from the government (which I believe has been occurring for much longer) that involves the increase in the number of policies which remove one’s individual responsibility. I think that at least part of the causes of this are from cases where the government was sued or “took heat” of some kind for something that was previously beyond the jurisdiction or control of the government. One example I have seen was regarding an incident at an amusement ride. Two operators were injured as a result of their negligence in not following proper safety precautions. One of the operator’s parents threatened to sue the State, so the State shut the ride down, even though the State clearly knew it was not the fault of the owner of the ride and was the fault of the two operators. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I have seen.

There are many policies the government has implemented that take away individual responsibility and therefore take away individual freedom, the “bail outs” for one. In a way, when someone sues the government or wants a “bail out” from the government they are saying “please control our lives more” and the government when they accept is in turn saying “OK, you are not responsible for your poor choices, we will take that on, it is really our responsibility”. The precedence is then set and gradually more responsibilities are removed from the individual and passed to the government.

I find this a very sad progression of government policies and this only increases the government’s involvement in our lives. Who really wants that? The government seems to be continually hounded by someone or some group wanting them to also take away their responsibility. People then begin to rely on the government more and more to “bail them out” and save themselves from the consequences of their poor choices. Since these people did not suffer consequences, they did not really learn from their poor choices and they tend to make mistakes over and over while always expecting to be “bailed out”. What many sadly do not realize is that we are gradually losing our freedoms from this process.

Before anyone begins discussing “what about the people that did not make poor choices, and they are just down on their luck, or they were taken advantage of?” This is another problem with many of the political leaders we have today. They use the exceptions to the rule to justify their social policies and give them more power over our lives. One quote that typifies this is from Bill Clinton in 1999: “I can spend your money better than you can.” What this shows is that the government is portraying themselves as more responsible than the public, and I would add that it is because we the people have asked them to do so.

We should make rules that deal justly and fairly with the exceptions, we should however, never make exceptions THE governing rule. The more we not only let the government proceed in the direction it is headed, but beg them to take more control over our lives, the less freedoms we will continue to have. My question is, when will more people begin to realize this so that real change can happen?

Were you as concerned about individual liberty when the past administration restricted individual liberty and increased government oversight, i.e. wire-tapping, Internet-monitoring, detention without charge, forcing librarians to turn over information about patrons reading habits, gathering evidence without revealing the evidence to the accused, government monitoring of political and religious groups, compilation of a wide variety of personal and commercial information on individuals in a centralized database, the authorization of torture, etc.?

Nope. I wasn't concerned about the Bush Administration's policies because I understood we were at war with a ruthless enemy...you fight to win wars...you don't fight to take down your own fucking President during a war. Understand that?

And the "war" is over? the troops are home?

 

[midcan5]

.... One example I have seen was regarding an incident at an amusement ride. Two operators were injured as a result of their negligence in not following proper safety precautions. One of the operator’s parents threatened to sue the State, so the State shut the ride down, even though the State clearly knew it was not the fault of the owner of the ride and was the fault of the two operators. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I have seen.

What the heck are you talking about? Where is there a loss of responsibility in this example? The state, aka government is us - you - me and the rest of the people. In this case someone was afraid that an accident may or would occur again, and shut the damn thing down over fear they would have shirked their responsibility. This has nothing to do with gov controlling anyone, it has a lot to do with our litigious society. This is a damned if they do damned if they don't. If there is a real example, please give me post number.

As for people being responsible in America today, that went out with parental involvement in every aspect of their child's lives and the modern attitude that if he can do it, I can. Has nothing to do with government, except again we are the government and this is the government America wants as it represents American values. Check the number of lawsuits in other nations sometime.


From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka

"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I don’t believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing about—constitutional law, for example, or sailing—a notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, don’t believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers’ speculation that’s so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, that’s so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. “Way I see it is,” a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, “if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for us.”

Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."

Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine

 

[PatekPhilippe]

Were you as concerned about individual liberty when the past administration restricted individual liberty and increased government oversight, i.e. wire-tapping, Internet-monitoring, detention without charge, forcing librarians to turn over information about patrons reading habits, gathering evidence without revealing the evidence to the accused, government monitoring of political and religious groups, compilation of a wide variety of personal and commercial information on individuals in a centralized database, the authorization of torture, etc.?

Nope. I wasn't concerned about the Bush Administration's policies because I understood we were at war with a ruthless enemy...you fight to win wars...you don't fight to take down your own fucking President during a war. Understand that?

And the "war" is over? the troops are home?

No and no...we are still at war and the current CinC has a different set of priorities....domestic vice foreign...

 

[JakeStarkey]

PP, I don't have to back up anything because you have given nothing other than your opinion to rebut. And I have done that: you are wrong. Let's move on.

Prove it!

YOU made the unsupported assertion. I called for your evidence and told you were wrong. It is on you to support your assertion, son, not me to refute an unsupported assertion. Once you have met the burden of proof, we can continue.

Typical reactionary agenda-drive activist nonsense. You make a statement you can't support and you want me to rebut your unsupported assertion. You are as much a brain as Americano.

Your argumentation is exactly why the Tea Party movement is a small minority of older, white well-off Americans who are destined to fail now as they did as youngsters in the 1960s. You will fail now, you will die, and you will be forgotten. That is the way of nature for reactionaries and their doctrines.

 

[Christopher]

PP, I don't have to back up anything because you have given nothing other than your opinion to rebut. And I have done that: you are wrong. Let's move on.

The real problem is that you just cannot rebut common sense.

 

[Christopher]

.... One example I have seen was regarding an incident at an amusement ride. Two operators were injured as a result of their negligence in not following proper safety precautions. One of the operator’s parents threatened to sue the State, so the State shut the ride down, even though the State clearly knew it was not the fault of the owner of the ride and was the fault of the two operators. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what I have seen.

What the heck are you talking about? Where is there a loss of responsibility in this example? The state, aka government is us - you - me and the rest of the people. In this case someone was afraid that an accident may or would occur again, and shut the damn thing down over fear they would have shirked their responsibility. This has nothing to do with gov controlling anyone, it has a lot to do with our litigious society. This is a damned if they do damned if they don't. If there is a real example, please give me post number.

As for people being responsible in America today, that went out with parental involvement in every aspect of their child's lives and the modern attitude that if he can do it, I can. Has nothing to do with government, except again we are the government and this is the government America wants as it represents American values. Check the number of lawsuits in other nations sometime.


From 'Notebook, A Quibble,' By Mark Slouka

"I was raised to be ashamed of my ignorance, and to try to do something about it if at all possible. I carry that burden to this day, and have successfully passed it on to my children. I don’t believe I have the right to an opinion about something I know nothing about—constitutional law, for example, or sailing—a notion that puts me sadly out of step with a growing majority of my countrymen, many of whom may be unable to tell you anything at all about Islam, say, or socialism, or climate change, except that they hate it, are against it, don’t believe in it. Worse still (or more amusing, depending on the day) are those who can tell you, and then offer up a stew of New Age blather, right-wing rant, and bloggers’ speculation that’s so divorced from actual, demonstrable fact, that’s so not true, as the kids would say, that the mind goes numb with wonder. “Way I see it is,” a man in the Tulsa Motel 6 swimming pool told me last summer, “if English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for us.”

Quite possibly, this belief in our own opinion, regardless of the facts, may be what separates us from the nations of the world, what makes us unique in God’s eyes. The average German or Czech, though possibly no less ignorant than his American counterpart, will probably consider the possibility that someone who has spent his life studying something may have an opinion worth considering. Not the American. Although perfectly willing to recognize expertise in basketball, for example, or refrigerator repair, when it comes to the realm of ideas, all folks (and their opinions) are suddenly equal. Thus evolution is a damned lie, global warming a liberal hoax, and Republicans care about people like you."

Article appeared in Notesbook. Harper's Magazine

The problem was that one of the operator’s parents thought that it was not their child’s fault and that their child should not take responsibility; even though it was obvious negligence on the child’s part. What is wrong is to push the responsibility onto the government so that the rest of us have less freedom to enjoy the ride. These people should have just accepted their individual responsibility for their actions and moved on.

Do you seriously not see an issue with the example I gave?

 

[PatekPhilippe]

PP, I don't have to back up anything because you have given nothing other than your opinion to rebut. And I have done that: you are wrong. Let's move on.

The real problem is that you just cannot rebut common sense.

That is a true statement.