The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[daveman]

No they're lunatics with delusions of being superior.
The military is slap full of the fucking nutjobs.

Dumbass.

Weeeeelll, I would probably state it a bit more diplomatically, but yeah, pretty much that opinion.

 

[Kalam]

Interesting POV. So it's Arab culture not Islam tht's the source of terrorism? Westerners don't tend to make much of a distincition between Arabs and Muslims.

I read one time--I wish I could find the source and if I do I will post it--an analysis of the advancement of an Islamic culture on a non-Islamic culture. And according to that author--some expert on the subject--it goes something like this:

--A small minority of Islamic people are invariably quiet, unobtrusive, peaceful, and good neighbors. They may utilize Islamic dress, etc. but more often than not simply do as the Roman do so to speak.

--As a larger minority develops, however, Islamic people may become more reclusive and judgmental of their neighbors. There will be more open and obvious manifestations of their religion and culture including manner of dress, head scarves, etc.

--When a sufficiently large minority has developed, Islamic people begin making requests and demands for accommodation for their culture and religion. They will require time for Islamic prayers--demand that their manner of dress be accommodated--require that there be accommodations for their dietary needs and, as in the case in France and Britain and a few other places, will begin petitioning for Sharia Law to be imposed at least for their own people.

--Finally when Islam has achieved a majority, they will begin removing rights and privileges from non Islamic peoples.

--And when Islam has achieved a sufficient majority, Islamic Law is imposed and all others will be expected to live by it and very limited, if any, accommodation will be given to any non-Muslims in their midst.

I at first questioned this analysis. But when I looked up the histories and development of Islamic nations around the world, I could not find much with which to dispute it. I dont' think the problem is Arabs. I think the problem is Islam.

That's the template of the Koran.

Source?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I read one time--I wish I could find the source and if I do I will post it--an analysis of the advancement of an Islamic culture on a non-Islamic culture. And according to that author--some expert on the subject--it goes something like this:

--A small minority of Islamic people are invariably quiet, unobtrusive, peaceful, and good neighbors. They may utilize Islamic dress, etc. but more often than not simply do as the Roman do so to speak.

--As a larger minority develops, however, Islamic people may become more reclusive and judgmental of their neighbors. There will be more open and obvious manifestations of their religion and culture including manner of dress, head scarves, etc.

--When a sufficiently large minority has developed, Islamic people begin making requests and demands for accommodation for their culture and religion. They will require time for Islamic prayers--demand that their manner of dress be accommodated--require that there be accommodations for their dietary needs and, as in the case in France and Britain and a few other places, will begin petitioning for Sharia Law to be imposed at least for their own people.

--Finally when Islam has achieved a majority, they will begin removing rights and privileges from non Islamic peoples.

--And when Islam has achieved a sufficient majority, Islamic Law is imposed and all others will be expected to live by it and very limited, if any, accommodation will be given to any non-Muslims in their midst.

I at first questioned this analysis. But when I looked up the histories and development of Islamic nations around the world, I could not find much with which to dispute it. I dont' think the problem is Arabs. I think the problem is Islam.

That's the template of the Koran.

Source?

The Koran. As you full well know you lying piece of human excrement. The Koran commands you to rule the world. It commands you to gain this supremacy anyway possible. It allows you to lie and cheat when weak, to wait to build a base and then subjugate all others. It commands that no other religion is allowed and that the Government must be run by the Islamic religion.

Historically we have absolute proof of this in action. In every country Muslims have immigrated to the pattern is followed. While of small numbers be peaceful, be respectful, obey the laws and seem good neighbors. As soon as your numbers are sufficient DEMAND concessions. Resort to ANY means needed to gain these concessions.

With the final goal of claiming leadership of said Country , making it an Islamic State and denying rights to all non Muslims.

 

[Kalam]

The Koran. As you full well know you lying piece of human excrement. The Koran commands you to rule the world. It commands you to gain this supremacy anyway possible. It allows you to lie and cheat when weak, to wait to build a base and then subjugate all others. It commands that no other religion is allowed and that the Government must be run by the Islamic religion.

Historically we have absolute proof of this in action. In every country Muslims have immigrated to the pattern is followed. While of small numbers be peaceful, be respectful, obey the laws and seem good neighbors. As soon as your numbers are sufficient DEMAND concessions. Resort to ANY means needed to gain these concessions.

With the final goal of claiming leadership of said Country , making it an Islamic State and denying rights to all non Muslims.

Source?

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Koran. As you full well know you lying piece of human excrement. The Koran commands you to rule the world. It commands you to gain this supremacy anyway possible. It allows you to lie and cheat when weak, to wait to build a base and then subjugate all others. It commands that no other religion is allowed and that the Government must be run by the Islamic religion.

Historically we have absolute proof of this in action. In every country Muslims have immigrated to the pattern is followed. While of small numbers be peaceful, be respectful, obey the laws and seem good neighbors. As soon as your numbers are sufficient DEMAND concessions. Resort to ANY means needed to gain these concessions.

With the final goal of claiming leadership of said Country , making it an Islamic State and denying rights to all non Muslims.

Source?

He doesn't believe in giving any.

 

[Kalam]

The Koran. As you full well know you lying piece of human excrement. The Koran commands you to rule the world. It commands you to gain this supremacy anyway possible. It allows you to lie and cheat when weak, to wait to build a base and then subjugate all others. It commands that no other religion is allowed and that the Government must be run by the Islamic religion.

Historically we have absolute proof of this in action. In every country Muslims have immigrated to the pattern is followed. While of small numbers be peaceful, be respectful, obey the laws and seem good neighbors. As soon as your numbers are sufficient DEMAND concessions. Resort to ANY means needed to gain these concessions.

With the final goal of claiming leadership of said Country , making it an Islamic State and denying rights to all non Muslims.

Source?

He doesn't believe in giving any.

With all this talk about the Qur'an, I'm surprised that nobody has been able to quote the passages to which they're referring. Can anybody do this? Copying and pasting "translations" from propaganda websites won't suffice.

 

[Kalam]

Now we get to watch people post ayat that they don't understand at all.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't understand the Qur'an at all. I haven't studied it. I have enough to keep me busy with Buddhist texts. Kalam, would you be willing to offer some sources of scriptures that show Islam is peaceful? Is this a good source? Frankly, it's always how an individual Muslim relates to me that I find instructive.

Truly, in remembering God do hearts find rest. (Quran, 13:28)
http://www.islam-guide.com/

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Kremlin-backed head of Russia's Muslim Chechnya region has praised assailants who targeted women with paintball pellets for going bareheaded, prompting outrage Thursday from rights activists.
Eyewitnesses have said men in camouflage, often worn by police and security forces in the volatile region, fired paintball guns from cars about a dozen times last month at women who were not wearing headscarves.

"I don't know (who they are), but when I find them I shall announce my gratitude," Ramzan Kadyrov said in a weekend interview on state-run regional television channel Grozny, according to a Reuters translation of the remarks in his native Chechen.

The attacks highlighted tension over Kadyrov's efforts to enforce Muslim-inspired rules that in some cases violate Russia's constitution.

Chechnya's leader hails paintball attacks on women | World | Reuters

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't know how objective this site is, but I mostly concur with their interpretations. They have made a good effort to put the quoted passages into their correct context.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text - as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.



The Qur'an:

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.


Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.


Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).


Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"


Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah." According to Ibn Ishaq (324), Muhammad justified the violence further by explaining that "Allah must have no rivals."


Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.



Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).




Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.


Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."




Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Qur'an (8:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story, which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source, tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son.



Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you," This very important verse asserts that the Religion of Peace is not to grant peace to the broader society until Islamic rule has been established.


Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?


Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.


Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.


Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.


Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

TheReligionofPeace - Islam: Verses of Violence

 

[Kalam]

I don't understand the Qur'an at all. I haven't studied it. I have enough to keep me busy with Buddhist texts. Kalam, would you be willing to offer some sources of scriptures that show Islam is peaceful? Is this a good sources: Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Nor should anyone expect you to. Islam's detractors don't understand it either; the difference is that they pretend to while you recognize it as alien and somewhat esoteric.

I don't think that Islam is peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful. For Muslims, as long as injustice and aggression exist, the struggle against those antagonistic forces will involve using whatever means necessary to destroy them. To be honest, I doubt that you'll be interested by scripture and edicts and whatnot unless you're extremely devoted to studying Islam.

This website is a popular online religious resource in the Muslim world, so it may offer some insight into Islam as most people practice it (the English version is a bit buggy): IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health

 

[Kalam]

The Kremlin-backed head of Russia's Muslim Chechnya region has praised assailants who targeted women with paintball pellets for going bareheaded, prompting outrage Thursday from rights activists.
Eyewitnesses have said men in camouflage, often worn by police and security forces in the volatile region, fired paintball guns from cars about a dozen times last month at women who were not wearing headscarves.

"I don't know (who they are), but when I find them I shall announce my gratitude," Ramzan Kadyrov said in a weekend interview on state-run regional television channel Grozny, according to a Reuters translation of the remarks in his native Chechen.

The attacks highlighted tension over Kadyrov's efforts to enforce Muslim-inspired rules that in some cases violate Russia's constitution.

Chechnya's leader hails paintball attacks on women | World | Reuters

Kadyrov and his supporters in the Kremlin are swine, and the mujahideen are the only ones who stand up to their tyranny. Anybody want to guess which side recently made it on to the State Department's terrorist list?

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't understand the Qur'an at all. I haven't studied it. I have enough to keep me busy with Buddhist texts. Kalam, would you be willing to offer some sources of scriptures that show Islam is peaceful? Is this a good sources: Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Nor should anyone expect you to. Islam's detractors don't understand it either; the difference is that they pretend to while you recognize it as alien and somewhat esoteric.

I don't think that Islam is peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful. For Muslims, as long as injustice and aggression exist, the struggle against those antagonistic forces will involve using whatever means necessary to destroy them. To be honest, I doubt that you'll be interested by scripture and edicts and whatnot unless you're extremely devoted to studying Islam.

This website is a popular online religious resource in the Muslim world, so it may offer some insight into Islam as most people practice it (the English version is a bit buggy): IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health

I appreciate the website Kalam. Interesting, informative, a lot of stuff there.

But on the website I found this:

1. In his Sahih, Imam Muslim recorded that Thawban quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) as saying: “Almighty Allah has gathered the earth for me so that I could see all its corners. My nation will rule over all that which Almighty Allah has gathered for me.”

2. Ibn Hibban quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “This matter (i.e. Islam) will spread to cover all areas where there is night and day. Allah will never leave a house in a rural area or in urban community without its people being Muslims. Honor is for those who embrace it (i.e. Islam) while disbelievers are doomed to disgrace and humiliation.”

Read more: For Muslims to Regain Lost Glory - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

When you add these opinions to the text of the Qu'ran, would you say that Islam intends to be an aggressor to spread Islam throughout the world?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I don't understand the Qur'an at all. I haven't studied it. I have enough to keep me busy with Buddhist texts. Kalam, would you be willing to offer some sources of scriptures that show Islam is peaceful? Is this a good sources: Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Nor should anyone expect you to. Islam's detractors don't understand it either; the difference is that they pretend to while you recognize it as alien and somewhat esoteric.

I don't think that Islam is peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful. For Muslims, as long as injustice and aggression exist, the struggle against those antagonistic forces will involve using whatever means necessary to destroy them. To be honest, I doubt that you'll be interested by scripture and edicts and whatnot unless you're extremely devoted to studying Islam.

This website is a popular online religious resource in the Muslim world, so it may offer some insight into Islam as most people practice it (the English version is a bit buggy): IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health

Thank you. You're probably right that Islam is not peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful.

I appreciate talking to you. I'm starting to think that Islam may not be as peaceful as I once thought from knowing Sufis.

 

[Kalam]

I don't know how objective this site is,

Yes you do. The only question that remains is why you would attempt to base an argument on information with such a blatant bias...

but I mostly concur with their interpretations.

I'm sure. They certainly seem to confirm the preconceptions of most uniformed Westerners, that's for sure.

They have made a good effort to put the quoted passages into their correct context.

It must certainly seem that way to somebody who hasn't read the works in question. The excerpts and "explanations" are disingenuous at best, particularly the ones near the end, which are from biographies and hadith collections rather than the Qur'an itself. Nowhere do we see any real attempt to provide an explanation of a verse's historical context, except where doing so advances the agenda of the website. I could spend a few hours copying passages out of those books and explaining, for example, the significance of 2:190 and 2:194 (which were conveniently omitted from the first passage), but I'll keep it concise because no worthwhile rebuttal to such a post would be put forward and my efforts would be wasted.

The rules of warfare in Islam were summarized very clearly by Abu Bakr (RA):

O people! I charge you with ten rules - learn them well: Do not betray or misappropriate any part of the spoils; do not practice treachery or mutilation. Do not kill a young child, an old man, or a woman. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. You will meet people who have set themselves apart in monasteries; leave them to accomplish the purpose for which they have done this. You will come upon people who will bring you dishes with various kinds of foods. If you partake of them, pronounce God's name over what you eat. You will meet people who have shaved the crown of their heads, leaving a band of hair around it (monks). Go in God's name, and may God protect you from sword and pestilence. - At-Tabari​

Islam never enters into a state of war against disbelievers, but it's locked in a perpetual struggle against disbelief. Disbelief and all of its manifestations must always be opposed. When Muslims are afforded their rights and treated with the same respect as everyone else, the struggle against disbelief takes the form of da'wah (proselytization), charitable work, civil discourse, and similarly peaceful methods of outreach. When Muslims are actively persecuted, the agents of persecution may be destroyed with physical force. That being said, disbelievers will still be allowed to persist in their disbelief should they choose to do so once Islam is established. This right cannot be taken away. Here are the words of famous 20th century "radical" Sayyid Qutb, as written in his brilliant and celebrated exegesis of the Qur'an. Here he discusses the 256th ayah of the 2nd surah:

Islam came to declare and establish the great universal principle that: “There shall be no compulsion in religion. The right way is henceforth distinct porn error.” (Verse 256) This reflects the honour God has reserved for man and the high regard in which man’s will, thought and emotions are held, and the freedom he is granted to choose his beliefs, and the responsible position he is afforded to be judge of his own actions. Here lies the essence of human emancipation which 20th-century authoritarian and oppressive ideologies and regimes have denied mankind. Modern man has been deprived of the right to choose and live other than according to what is dictated by the state, using the full force of its colossal machinery, laws and powers. People are today given the choice only to adhere to the secular state system, which does not allow for a belief in God as the Creator and Master of the world, or to face annihilation.

Freedom of belief is the most basic right that identifies man as a human being. To deny anyone this right is to deny him or her humanity. Freedom of belief also implies the freedom to express and propagate one’s belief without fear of threat or persecution; otherwise, that freedom is hollow and meaningless.

Islam, undoubtedly the most enlightened view of life and the world, establishing a most sensible human and social system, takes the lead in declaring this most fundamental principle. It teaches its adherents, before anyone else, that they are forbidden to compel others to embrace Islam. This Islamic approach stands in total contrast to that of man-made systems and regimes which, despite all their inherent shortcomings, impose their beliefs and policies by the force of the state and deny their opponents the right to dissent or even live.​

 

[Kalam]

I don't understand the Qur'an at all. I haven't studied it. I have enough to keep me busy with Buddhist texts. Kalam, would you be willing to offer some sources of scriptures that show Islam is peaceful? Is this a good sources: Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Nor should anyone expect you to. Islam's detractors don't understand it either; the difference is that they pretend to while you recognize it as alien and somewhat esoteric.

I don't think that Islam is peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful. For Muslims, as long as injustice and aggression exist, the struggle against those antagonistic forces will involve using whatever means necessary to destroy them. To be honest, I doubt that you'll be interested by scripture and edicts and whatnot unless you're extremely devoted to studying Islam.

This website is a popular online religious resource in the Muslim world, so it may offer some insight into Islam as most people practice it (the English version is a bit buggy): IslamOnline.net- Islamic News, Shari'ah, Society, Family, Culture, Science, Youth, and Health

I appreciate the website Kalam. Interesting, informative, a lot of stuff there.

But on the website I found this:

1. In his Sahih, Imam Muslim recorded that Thawban quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) as saying: “Almighty Allah has gathered the earth for me so that I could see all its corners. My nation will rule over all that which Almighty Allah has gathered for me.”

2. Ibn Hibban quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “This matter (i.e. Islam) will spread to cover all areas where there is night and day. Allah will never leave a house in a rural area or in urban community without its people being Muslims. Honor is for those who embrace it (i.e. Islam) while disbelievers are doomed to disgrace and humiliation.”

Read more: For Muslims to Regain Lost Glory - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

When you add these opinions to the text of the Qu'ran, would you say that Islam intends to be an aggressor to spread Islam throughout the world?

That depends. What do you mean by "aggressor"?

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't know how objective this site is,

Yes you do. The only question that remains is why you would attempt to base an argument on information with such a blatant bias...

but I mostly concur with their interpretations.

I'm sure. They certainly seem to confirm the preconceptions of most uniformed Westerners, that's for sure.

They have made a good effort to put the quoted passages into their correct context.

It must certainly seem that way to somebody who hasn't read the works in question. The excerpts and "explanations" are disingenuous at best, particularly the ones near the end, which are from biographies and hadith collections rather than the Qur'an itself. Nowhere do we see any real attempt to provide an explanation of a verse's historical context, except where doing so advances the agenda of the website. I could spend a few hours copying passages out of those books and explaining, for example, the significance of 2:190 and 2:194 (which were conveniently omitted from the first passage), but I'll keep it concise because no worthwhile rebuttal to such a post would be put forward and my efforts would be wasted.

The rules of warfare in Islam were summarized very clearly by Abu Bakr (RA):

O people! I charge you with ten rules - learn them well: Do not betray or misappropriate any part of the spoils; do not practice treachery or mutilation. Do not kill a young child, an old man, or a woman. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. You will meet people who have set themselves apart in monasteries; leave them to accomplish the purpose for which they have done this. You will come upon people who will bring you dishes with various kinds of foods. If you partake of them, pronounce God's name over what you eat. You will meet people who have shaved the crown of their heads, leaving a band of hair around it (monks). Go in God's name, and may God protect you from sword and pestilence. - At-Tabari​

Islam never enters into a state of war against disbelievers, but it's locked in a perpetual struggle against disbelief. Disbelief and all of its manifestations must always be opposed. When Muslims are afforded their rights and treated with the same respect as everyone else, the struggle against disbelief takes the form of da'wah (proselytization), charitable work, civil discourse, and similarly peaceful methods of outreach. When Muslims are actively persecuted, the agents of persecution may be destroyed with physical force. That being said, disbelievers will still be allowed to persist in their disbelief should they choose to do so once Islam is established. This right cannot be taken away. Here are the words of famous 20th century "radical" Sayyid Qutb, as written in his brilliant and celebrated exegesis of the Qur'an. Here he discusses the 256th ayah of the 2nd surah:

Islam came to declare and establish the great universal principle that: “There shall be no compulsion in religion. The right way is henceforth distinct porn error.” (Verse 256) This reflects the honour God has reserved for man and the high regard in which man’s will, thought and emotions are held, and the freedom he is granted to choose his beliefs, and the responsible position he is afforded to be judge of his own actions. Here lies the essence of human emancipation which 20th-century authoritarian and oppressive ideologies and regimes have denied mankind. Modern man has been deprived of the right to choose and live other than according to what is dictated by the state, using the full force of its colossal machinery, laws and powers. People are today given the choice only to adhere to the secular state system, which does not allow for a belief in God as the Creator and Master of the world, or to face annihilation.

Freedom of belief is the most basic right that identifies man as a human being. To deny anyone this right is to deny him or her humanity. Freedom of belief also implies the freedom to express and propagate one’s belief without fear of threat or persecution; otherwise, that freedom is hollow and meaningless.

Islam, undoubtedly the most enlightened view of life and the world, establishing a most sensible human and social system, takes the lead in declaring this most fundamental principle. It teaches its adherents, before anyone else, that they are forbidden to compel others to embrace Islam. This Islamic approach stands in total contrast to that of man-made systems and regimes which, despite all their inherent shortcomings, impose their beliefs and policies by the force of the state and deny their opponents the right to dissent or even live.​

No, I don't know because the commentary there does not differ from that I have seen or discussed within the historical contexts. Have I been taught correctly? I don't know. Have you? I don't know. But I have had close friends and colleagues of the Muslim faith who have not disputed the militant and aggressive nature of it. And I have some experience with comparative religions in which Islam was a factor.

As SkyDancer's friends do not seem to be of the militant stripe, neither do mine. Nowhere in any of my postings, the commentaries, or my own take on it have I ever suggested that anyone is compelled to embrace Islam. That I am well aware is against the teaching of your sacred writings.

But there is a world of difference between being allowed to reject Islam, and being allowed to practice your own faith freely and unrestricted in the presence of an Islamic majority. There is a world of difference between being allowed to disbelieve and in being allowed to disrespect Islamic law. Probably the most free of Islamic cultures will be found in Turkey and Indonesia, but even there, the non Muslim treads carefully so as not to offend.

And we are all aware of those who have written against Islam or a cartoonist who dares lampoon Mohammed having a form of 'contract' put out on them. And we have seen time and again the rights and freedoms of the people suppressed under Islamic law.

So I am fully aware that I may have some of this wrong. I am not Muslim and have not lived among Muslims. I must form my opinions based on what I read, see, and am told. But honestly, Kalam, I'm not seeing a lot of love and peaceful coexistence out there from Islamic people anywhere.

 

[Kalam]

Thank you. You're probably right that Islam is not peaceful in the way that Buddhism is peaceful.

I appreciate talking to you. I'm starting to think that Islam may not be as peaceful as I once thought from knowing Sufis.

I think that many of those who call themselves Sufis make the mistake of focusing purely on the personal, mystical aspects of Islam. On the other hand, there are too many "pharisee Muslims" that concern themselves with doctrinal minutiae and lose sight of the true meaning of Islam, which can only be found by understanding the complementary relationship between Islamic jurisprudence and the kind of introspection, love of Allah, and brotherhood championed by Sufis. What point is there to possessing knowledge of Islam if you don't act on it, like these Sufis? What point is there to fighting for the establishment of an Islamic society if you don't understand the reasons behind God's law, like most of the rest of us?

Both Islam and Buddhism are devoted to establishing peace. The way I see things, Islam is so devoted to attaining true peace that its followers are willing to lay down their lives in its pursuit, not to mention the lives of those who try to hinder its realization.

 

[Kalam]

I don't know how objective this site is,

Yes you do. The only question that remains is why you would attempt to base an argument on information with such a blatant bias...


I'm sure. They certainly seem to confirm the preconceptions of most uniformed Westerners, that's for sure.

They have made a good effort to put the quoted passages into their correct context.

It must certainly seem that way to somebody who hasn't read the works in question. The excerpts and "explanations" are disingenuous at best, particularly the ones near the end, which are from biographies and hadith collections rather than the Qur'an itself. Nowhere do we see any real attempt to provide an explanation of a verse's historical context, except where doing so advances the agenda of the website. I could spend a few hours copying passages out of those books and explaining, for example, the significance of 2:190 and 2:194 (which were conveniently omitted from the first passage), but I'll keep it concise because no worthwhile rebuttal to such a post would be put forward and my efforts would be wasted.

The rules of warfare in Islam were summarized very clearly by Abu Bakr (RA):

O people! I charge you with ten rules - learn them well: Do not betray or misappropriate any part of the spoils; do not practice treachery or mutilation. Do not kill a young child, an old man, or a woman. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. You will meet people who have set themselves apart in monasteries; leave them to accomplish the purpose for which they have done this. You will come upon people who will bring you dishes with various kinds of foods. If you partake of them, pronounce God's name over what you eat. You will meet people who have shaved the crown of their heads, leaving a band of hair around it (monks). Go in God's name, and may God protect you from sword and pestilence. - At-Tabari​

Islam never enters into a state of war against disbelievers, but it's locked in a perpetual struggle against disbelief. Disbelief and all of its manifestations must always be opposed. When Muslims are afforded their rights and treated with the same respect as everyone else, the struggle against disbelief takes the form of da'wah (proselytization), charitable work, civil discourse, and similarly peaceful methods of outreach. When Muslims are actively persecuted, the agents of persecution may be destroyed with physical force. That being said, disbelievers will still be allowed to persist in their disbelief should they choose to do so once Islam is established. This right cannot be taken away. Here are the words of famous 20th century "radical" Sayyid Qutb, as written in his brilliant and celebrated exegesis of the Qur'an. Here he discusses the 256th ayah of the 2nd surah:

Islam came to declare and establish the great universal principle that: “There shall be no compulsion in religion. The right way is henceforth distinct porn error.” (Verse 256) This reflects the honour God has reserved for man and the high regard in which man’s will, thought and emotions are held, and the freedom he is granted to choose his beliefs, and the responsible position he is afforded to be judge of his own actions. Here lies the essence of human emancipation which 20th-century authoritarian and oppressive ideologies and regimes have denied mankind. Modern man has been deprived of the right to choose and live other than according to what is dictated by the state, using the full force of its colossal machinery, laws and powers. People are today given the choice only to adhere to the secular state system, which does not allow for a belief in God as the Creator and Master of the world, or to face annihilation.

Freedom of belief is the most basic right that identifies man as a human being. To deny anyone this right is to deny him or her humanity. Freedom of belief also implies the freedom to express and propagate one’s belief without fear of threat or persecution; otherwise, that freedom is hollow and meaningless.

Islam, undoubtedly the most enlightened view of life and the world, establishing a most sensible human and social system, takes the lead in declaring this most fundamental principle. It teaches its adherents, before anyone else, that they are forbidden to compel others to embrace Islam. This Islamic approach stands in total contrast to that of man-made systems and regimes which, despite all their inherent shortcomings, impose their beliefs and policies by the force of the state and deny their opponents the right to dissent or even live.​

No, I don't know because the commentary there does not differ from that I have seen or discussed within the historical contexts. Have I been taught correctly? I don't know. Have you? I don't know. But I have had close friends and colleagues of the Muslim faith who have not disputed the militant and aggressive nature of it. And I have some experience with comparative religions in which Islam was a factor.

As SkyDancer's friends do not seem to be of the militant stripe, neither do mine. Nowhere in any of my postings, the commentaries, or my own take on it have I ever suggested that anyone is compelled to embrace Islam. That I am well aware is against the teaching of your sacred writings.

But there is a world of difference between being allowed to reject Islam, and being allowed to practice your own faith freely and unrestricted in the presence of an Islamic majority. There is a world of difference between being allowed to disbelieve and in being allowed to disrespect Islamic law. Probably the most free of Islamic cultures will be found in Turkey and Indonesia, but even there, the non Muslim treads carefully so as not to offend.

And we are all aware of those who have written against Islam or a cartoonist who dares lampoon Mohammed having a form of 'contract' put out on them. And we have seen time and again the rights and freedoms of the people suppressed under Islamic law.

So I am fully aware that I may have some of this wrong. I am not Muslim and have not lived among Muslims. I must form my opinions based on what I read, see, and am told. But honestly, Kalam, I'm not seeing a lot of love and peaceful coexistence out there from Islamic people anywhere.

I'll respond to this soon. I'm going to take a break for a while and read.

 

[DiveCon]

I agree. Most Christians are peaceful.

"Most"



This is why I read message boards.

well, you do have the loons who think they should protect fetuses by murdering people in
g-d's name.


with respect to the O/P, I think calling this 'crusades' is an oversimplification. it ignores the fact that there are real and true jihadi's who do dispicable violent things.

and lets not forget that the crusades were a response to MASSIVE Jihad