The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[Jurginvoncelle]

Truth is all human beings have five poisons of mind; ignorance, desire, anger, jealousy and pride.

I do believe you have quoted something similar to the exact opposite of the knightly code of “chivalry”. Is this not what the whole of “Christendom” was supposed to follow?

 

[FA_Q2]

Really? Is that why after Oklahoma City, Muslims were rounded up and questioned in the hours/days before McVeigh was caught?

Still waiting for that proof.....

 

[FA_Q2]

Read up on Atheist Soviet Union and the MILLIONS murdered there. Try Pol Pot and his murders, or maybe Communist China?

Are you actually claiming you have never heard about the MILLIONS murdered by these4 regimes? Well then you do claim Muslims are tolerant. And claim they are peaceful and justify the claim by citing one of the smallest Muslim factions in existence.

Show me where I said all Muslims are tolerant. They aren't. I said they are not all terrorists.

What's it take to get through to you.

Sure I've heard of these regimes. The atheist Chinese government committed genocide on Tibetan Buddhists and desecrated 3000 monasteries.

That doesn't mean I would hold all Chinese people responsible for the misdeeds of their government.

I'm saying that most Muslims are not engaged in violence of any kind and are simply living their lives like the rest of us.

Changing the goal post yet again. YOU wanted proof that Atheist Governments murdered more people then Religious ones. Then when given the proof you go off on some rant about how the people are not to blame.

Ohh and are you not the one claiming the west is involved in a holy war against Muslims? Straight up lie. And your pretending otherwise does not make it true.

You did not provide that proof, just proof that atheist nations still murder. It is a fact that FAR more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than in the pursuit of atheism. This is logically due to the fact that Christianity has been around far longer and a basis for many more governments than atheism so it would naturally have a higher death toll. It is a basic tenant of humanity, we can be cruel and will use all manner of excuses to do it. Atheists tend to kill in the name of utopia (since atheism does not offer anything to kill over) and theocracies kill in the name of whatever religion they can hide behind. That is simply human nature. I do not think that Syrenn's original point (the one that created this offshoot) was not that there would be any less killing, just that killing would not be able to hide it's monstrosity behind religious dogma. I would counter that those same individuals hide behind utopian ideals but I digress...

 

[FA_Q2]

She failed miserably claiming Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance so now this. Claiming wars fought a 1000 years ago somehow prove we hate Muslims today.

You continue to lie. I never stated that Islam is a religion of peace. Do you think if you repeat that lie often enough it will stick? I have stated the truth. The vast majority of Muslims worldwide are living in peace and are not terrorists.

Maybe not but you did start this thread with the statement "The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?" Your point was challenged and I have yet to see any real defense of that statement. The straw man that is persisting (atheism and religion) has nothing to do with the OP - the idea that we are perusing Islam in some sort of holy war. I have put forth, as well as some others, that we are not. What say you...

 

[blu]

Our Islamophobia dates back to the time of the Crusades, and is entwined with our chronic anti-semitism. Some of the first Crusaders began their journey to the Holy Land by massacring the Jewish communities along the Rhine valley; the Crusaders ended their campaign in 1099 by slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem. It is always difficult to forgive people we know we have wronged. Thenceforth Jews and Muslims became the shadow-self of Christendom, the mirror image of everything that we hoped we were not - or feared that we were.

The fearful fantasies created by Europeans at this time endured for centuries and reveal a buried anxiety about Christian identity and behaviour. When the popes called for a Crusade to the Holy Land, Christians often persecuted the local Jewish communities: why march 3,000 miles to Palestine to liberate the tomb of Christ, and leave unscathed the people who had - or so the Crusaders mistakenly assumed - actually killed Jesus. Jews were believed to kill little children and mix their blood with the leavened bread of Passover: this "blood libel" regularly inspired pogroms in Europe, and the image of the Jew as the child slayer laid bare an almost Oedipal terror of the parent faith.

Jesus had told his followers to love their enemies, not to exterminate them. It was when the Christians of Europe were fighting brutal holy wars against Muslims in the Middle East that Islam first became known in the west as the religion of the sword. At this time, when the popes were trying to impose celibacy on the reluctant clergy, Muhammad was portrayed by the scholar monks of Europe as a lecher, and Islam condemned - with ill-concealed envy - as a faith that encouraged Muslims to indulge their basest sexual instincts. At a time when European social order was deeply hierarchical, despite the egalitarian message of the gospel, Islam was condemned for giving too much respect to women and other menials.

The early conquests in Persia and Byzantium after the Prophet's death were inspired by political rather than religious aspirations. Until the middle of the eighth century, Jews and Christians in the Muslim empire were actively discouraged from conversion to Islam, as, according to Qur'anic teaching, they had received authentic revelations of their own. The extremism and intolerance that have surfaced in the Muslim world in our own day are a response to intractable political problems - oil, Palestine, the occupation of Muslim lands, the prevelance of authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, and the west's perceived "double standards" - and not to an ingrained religious imperative.

But the old myth of Islam as a chronically violent faith persists, and surfaces at the most inappropriate moments. As one of the received ideas of the west, it seems well-nigh impossible to eradicate. Indeed, we may even be strengthening it by falling back into our old habits of projection. As we see the violence - in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon - for which we bear a measure of responsibility, there is a temptation, perhaps, to blame it all on "Islam". But if we are feeding our prejudice in this way, we do so at our peril.

· Karen Armstrong is the author of Islam: A Short History


Karen Armstrong: We cannot afford to maintain these ancient prejudices against Islam | Comment is free | The Guardian

That is rather funny. I can't remember any anti-Islamic sentiments that prevailed within our society before 9/11. You want to know why there is such a strong feeling against Islam today - speak to the thousands of innocents that were killed in the name of jihad. The fact is that Americans have NEVER faced an attack of that kind or scope in its history and the reaction to it is going to be large and long lasting. The feeling will fade eventually but it will take a lot of time for Americans to truly forgive the atrocity that took place on that day.

what about the one MILLION muslim children that died in iraq due to our sanctions?

 

[blu]

All of which leads me to believe that an atheists world would be better off then one misguided by religion.

yep. I cant wait for jesuss, muhammad, etc to all come down and take their followers so the rest of us can finally live in peace

 

[blu]

Our Islamophobia dates back to the time of the Crusades, and is entwined with our chronic anti-semitism. Some of the first Crusaders began their journey to the Holy Land by massacring the Jewish communities along the Rhine valley; the Crusaders ended their campaign in 1099 by slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem. It is always difficult to forgive people we know we have wronged. Thenceforth Jews and Muslims became the shadow-self of Christendom, the mirror image of everything that we hoped we were not - or feared that we were.

The fearful fantasies created by Europeans at this time endured for centuries and reveal a buried anxiety about Christian identity and behaviour. When the popes called for a Crusade to the Holy Land, Christians often persecuted the local Jewish communities: why march 3,000 miles to Palestine to liberate the tomb of Christ, and leave unscathed the people who had - or so the Crusaders mistakenly assumed - actually killed Jesus. Jews were believed to kill little children and mix their blood with the leavened bread of Passover: this "blood libel" regularly inspired pogroms in Europe, and the image of the Jew as the child slayer laid bare an almost Oedipal terror of the parent faith.

Jesus had told his followers to love their enemies, not to exterminate them. It was when the Christians of Europe were fighting brutal holy wars against Muslims in the Middle East that Islam first became known in the west as the religion of the sword. At this time, when the popes were trying to impose celibacy on the reluctant clergy, Muhammad was portrayed by the scholar monks of Europe as a lecher, and Islam condemned - with ill-concealed envy - as a faith that encouraged Muslims to indulge their basest sexual instincts. At a time when European social order was deeply hierarchical, despite the egalitarian message of the gospel, Islam was condemned for giving too much respect to women and other menials.

The early conquests in Persia and Byzantium after the Prophet's death were inspired by political rather than religious aspirations. Until the middle of the eighth century, Jews and Christians in the Muslim empire were actively discouraged from conversion to Islam, as, according to Qur'anic teaching, they had received authentic revelations of their own. The extremism and intolerance that have surfaced in the Muslim world in our own day are a response to intractable political problems - oil, Palestine, the occupation of Muslim lands, the prevelance of authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, and the west's perceived "double standards" - and not to an ingrained religious imperative.

But the old myth of Islam as a chronically violent faith persists, and surfaces at the most inappropriate moments. As one of the received ideas of the west, it seems well-nigh impossible to eradicate. Indeed, we may even be strengthening it by falling back into our old habits of projection. As we see the violence - in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon - for which we bear a measure of responsibility, there is a temptation, perhaps, to blame it all on "Islam". But if we are feeding our prejudice in this way, we do so at our peril.

· Karen Armstrong is the author of Islam: A Short History


Karen Armstrong: We cannot afford to maintain these ancient prejudices against Islam | Comment is free | The Guardian

That is rather funny. I can't remember any anti-Islamic sentiments that prevailed within our society before 9/11. You want to know why there is such a strong feeling against Islam today - speak to the thousands of innocents that were killed in the name of jihad. The fact is that Americans have NEVER faced an attack of that kind or scope in its history and the reaction to it is going to be large and long lasting. The feeling will fade eventually but it will take a lot of time for Americans to truly forgive the atrocity that took place on that day.

Really? Is that why after Oklahoma City, Muslims were rounded up and questioned in the hours/days before McVeigh was caught?

yep on youtube you can still find the news broadcasts where they blamed it on muslims. you can also find wtc 93 stuff as well, its too bad the fbi didn't get their wish to bring it down that time though

 

[blu]

Being atheists would make all of these people more honest. There is no more excuse that they are doing anything for any god.

Just think, they would have to shoulder the idea that they do all of the killing and hating all on their and for themselves.

yea its funny to hear christians mock islam for the 72 virgins thing when christian want to fight &d ie for the same thing

 

[blu]

She failed miserably claiming Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance so now this. Claiming wars fought a 1000 years ago somehow prove we hate Muslims today.

you really think christians and muslims haven't been fighting constantly since then? the christians dont boil muslims and jews alive in oil anymore but its basically the same thing over and over

 

[blu]

She failed miserably claiming Islam was a religion of peace and tolerance so now this. Claiming wars fought a 1000 years ago somehow prove we hate Muslims today.

You continue to lie. I never stated that Islam is a religion of peace. Do you think if you repeat that lie often enough it will stick? I have stated the truth. The vast majority of Muslims worldwide are living in peace and are not terrorists.

Your thread title and your premise are that Islam is a peaceful religion. Further you have claimed Islam is tolerant, yet when shown reams of evidence that Islam is in fact the most intolerant lot around you start attacking Christians. Go figure.

Go ahead remind us how every single Islamic Country SUPPORTS world wide Terror, How every major head of the Muslim faith makes excuses for terrorism. How millions of Muslims fight for Islam and millions more pay the terrorists to continue fighting.

Then show us a reciprocity in the Christian faith. And not from 1000 years ago.

turkey supports terror? "provide evidence"

 

[blu]

The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

We're not.


Well, looks like this thread's done.

right

thats why we only ever seem to have problems with dictators in middle eastern countries, why when bush was president his pamphlets had jesus stuff on them, and a number of our bullets and weapons have bible verses engraved in them

 

[FA_Q2]

what about the one MILLION muslim children that died in iraq due to our sanctions?

You would need to provide proof and specifically what sanctions you are referring to. Do you not support the fact that we, as a nation, can choose who to trade with and who not based on whatever our political goals are? If China refuses to send us toys would it be China's fault for children not having anything to play with or ours for not producing the products ourselves? That logic is somewhat twisted, sanctions are direct responses to the actions of nations. Should we just sell the atomic weapons to Iran since sanctions are so morally wrong?

 

[blu]

All of which leads me to believe that an atheists world would be better off then one misguided by religion.

I'd have to disagree. Athiestic societies have a much higher slaughter rate than religious ones.

um christians are responsible for more deaths throughout history that all other groups combined.

 

[blu]

Prove it.

Read up on Atheist Soviet Union and the MILLIONS murdered there. Try Pol Pot and his murders, or maybe Communist China?

Are you actually claiming you have never heard about the MILLIONS murdered by these4 regimes? Well then you do claim Muslims are tolerant. And claim they are peaceful and justify the claim by citing one of the smallest Muslim factions in existence.

religion haters need scapegoats--much like a german dude we all have heard of.

hitler reference = auto fail

 

[blu]

religion haters need scapegoats--much like a german dude we all have heard of.

That German dude. Are you referring to Hitler, the Christian?

Hitler ? LMAO Show me where he encouraged his troops to kill for God .

please tell me you are kidding. did you learn your pre-WWII history in church or something?

here is a decent start:

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/a/HitlerJesus.htm

there are entire journals and books written on it. please learn some history

 

[blu]

Show me where I said all Muslims are tolerant. They aren't. I said they are not all terrorists.

What's it take to get through to you.

Sure I've heard of these regimes. The atheist Chinese government committed genocide on Tibetan Buddhists and desecrated 3000 monasteries.

That doesn't mean I would hold all Chinese people responsible for the misdeeds of their government.

I'm saying that most Muslims are not engaged in violence of any kind and are simply living their lives like the rest of us.

same goes for Christians----give up your Buddhist Crusade.

I agree. Most Christians are peaceful.

how many wars, sanctions, etc have been started by christians in the last 100 years?

 

[blu]

"Most"



This is why I read message boards.

well, you do have the loons who think they should protect fetuses by murdering people in
g-d's name.

Ya, there have been exactly how many of those murders? And in every single case the Christian religions have CONDEMNED the murderer. But you keep trying to compare that to Islamic murder and mayhem.

tiller the baby killer ring a bell?

 

[FA_Q2]

The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

We're not.


Well, looks like this thread's done.

right

thats why we only ever seem to have problems with dictators in middle eastern countries, why when bush was president his pamphlets had jesus stuff on them, and a number of our bullets and weapons have bible verses engraved in them

Weapons tend to have bible verses on them because it is the troops that write them.

Only have trouble with Muslim nations? Did I miss something. Was Russia Muslim? Has China adopted a new religion? Did we go to war with Germany because the Islamic scare? All those damn Islamic Japanese must have been the source of those tensions as well. Hell, if the Vietnamese simply were not Nation of Islam we would have left them alone. Continued hostility with North Korea would end tomorrow if they would renounce Allah and reject Islam. Take off the blinders and maybe you would notice what is happening in the real world, not just what fits your preconceived notions. Ignorance......

 

[blu]

what about the one MILLION muslim children that died in iraq due to our sanctions?

You would need to provide proof and specifically what sanctions you are referring to. Do you not support the fact that we, as a nation, can choose who to trade with and who not based on whatever our political goals are? If China refuses to send us toys would it be China's fault for children not having anything to play with or ours for not producing the products ourselves? That logic is somewhat twisted, sanctions are direct responses to the actions of nations. Should we just sell the atomic weapons to Iran since sanctions are so morally wrong?

you can read some of the ref'd stuff here:

Iraq sanctions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or just google about it. it was a huge deal when the numbers finally broke past the christian run federal government we have and sane people started demanding action

 

[blu]

We're not.


Well, looks like this thread's done.

right

thats why we only ever seem to have problems with dictators in middle eastern countries, why when bush was president his pamphlets had jesus stuff on them, and a number of our bullets and weapons have bible verses engraved in them

Weapons tend to have bible verses on them because it is the troops that write them.

Only have trouble with Muslim nations? Did I miss something. Was Russia Muslim? Has China adopted a new religion? Did we go to war with Germany because the Islamic scare? All those damn Islamic Japanese must have been the source of those tensions as well. Hell, if the Vietnamese simply were not Nation of Islam we would have left them alone. Continued hostility with North Korea would end tomorrow if they would renounce Allah and reject Islam. Take off the blinders and maybe you would notice what is happening in the real world, not just what fits your preconceived notions. Ignorance......

one example:

Company offers to stop putting biblical references on military scopes - CNN.com