CDZ The Confederate (Rebel) Flag

[ABikerSailor]

Hey Correll............I had the incident in Meridian MS happen in the fall of 1982. For Memphis? I was there from '85 until '89. Florida? I was there from '89 until '93.

There...................dates are provided for you.

 

[Liffy]

It's not offensive but the only people who have one are history geeks and racists.

 

[Bush92]

It's not offensive but the only people who have one are history geeks and racists.

I have one. I have an American flag too. I served in combat under the stars and stripes. What's your point?

 

[airplanemechanic]

Not racist at all. It simply represents the 13 original colonies.

The US flag flew above a nation full of slaves for 86 years, the confederate flag for 4. The north had slaves, the south had slaves. The war wasn't even about slavery. The war was fought over state's rights and the limits of federal power in a union of states. The perceived threat to state autonomy became an existential one through the specific dispute over slavery. The issue was not slavery per se, but who decided whether slavery was acceptable, local institutions or a distant central government power. That distinction is not one of semantics: this question of local or federal control to permit or prohibit slavery as the country expanded west became increasingly acute in new states, eventually leading to that fateful artillery volley at Fort Sumter.

Slavery and the Civil War Not What You Think Jeff Schweitzer

It would be no different than you going to war because you don't believe the federal gov't should force healthcare on everyone. Does it mean you're anti healthcare for the poor? No, you're fighting over states rights to decide.

 

[Liffy]

It's not offensive but the only people who have one are history geeks and racists.

I have one. I have an American flag too. I served in combat under the stars and stripes. What's your point?

Can't use syllogistic reasoning? Your either a history geek or a racist to me dumbass.!which one are you? Neither?then tell me... Actually I don't give a fuck. Why you talking to me?

 

[Ernie S.]

why are you talking to anyone?
4 fucking days and you own the place already?

 

[LoneLaugher]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

 

[Pogo]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

 

[LoneLaugher]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Can't use syllogistic reasoning? Your either a history geek or a racist to me dumbass.!which one are you? Neither?then tell me... Actually I don't give a fuck. Why you talking to me?

578 posts in 4 days? Dude, for real. Go outside.

 

[Pogo]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

 

[LoneLaugher]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

 

[Pogo]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

 

[LoneLaugher]

From the Texas Declaration of The Causes ( for secession) Feb. 2 1861

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States."

The flag doesn't represent states rights. It represents bigotry and involuntary servitude in the pursuit of profit.

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

 

[Pogo]

Representation is in the eye of the beholder though. It may represent slavery to some; may represent "states' rights" to others; but I suspect for a whole lot more it simply represents a culture.

We made this point earlier here but it's not possible to project one's own reasoning to some third party and declare it's the only thing it represents. That's just not democratic.

Flags are taken entirely too seriously. ALL of them.

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

I posted this earlier in the thread but, my mom had some stars and bars, and she was as far from racist as ever there was. It just isn't part of the association for her, and for many others -- not all certainly but many. We tend to cling to those symbols and aspects associated with happy times of early childhood. Lotta people in the South find a sense of 'belonging' in it. Without taking a poll I suspect for them it's more a cultural symbol than a political one.

Not unlike wearing green on St. Patrick's Day if you're Irish -- doesn't mean you're religious.

I think demonizing a stars 'n' bars (or any flag or symbol) gives it power by way of making its base cling to it more in defensive defiance. It doesn't usually end well to deny a culture one of its own symbols. Better to simply ignore it until it goes away.

It's already going away; just allow it to fade.

 

[LoneLaugher]

You are too kind.

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

Please trust me when I tell you that I've seen everything I need to see to have developed my opinion on this subject. If you have family members who treat that flag with reverence, I'll remind you of a well known quote.

"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

 

[Pogo]

I'm a half-breed, half Yankee half Southerner. I grew up around both cultures simultaneously so I tend to see both sides.

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

Please trust me when I tell you that I've seen everything I need to see to have developed my opinion on this subject. If you have family members who treat that flag with reverence, I'll remind you of a well known quote.

"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

I don't know what that means

I didn't say they treat it with "reverence" -- our family's not a reverent or fetishistic bunch; I never saw any of us treat any flag with reverence. They just had some around -- as a decoration that declares one's roots. No different from growing up as the only kids in the neighborhood (in the North) who ate grits.

You gotta realize a symbol like a flag isn't monolithic in what it means to different people.

 

[LoneLaugher]

That's nice.

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

Please trust me when I tell you that I've seen everything I need to see to have developed my opinion on this subject. If you have family members who treat that flag with reverence, I'll remind you of a well known quote.

"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

I don't know what that means

I didn't say they treat it with "reverence" -- our family's not a reverent or fetishistic bunch; I never saw any of us treat any flag with reverence. They just had some around -- as a decoration that declares one's roots. No different from growing up as the only kids in the neighborhood (in the North) who ate grits.

You gotta realize a symbol like a flag isn't monolithic in what it means to different people.

Obviously it means different things to different people. The American flag carries a very negative image in many parts of the world. That ISIS flag means religious liberty to some.

Here's the point. The only point that matters when it comes to the rebel flag. It is.....for a large portion of this nation's populace.....a symbol of hatred and division. It is.....for all intents and purposes.....the banner of a former enemy of the United States of America. The entity / nation it once represented no longer exists. It has no place in the public square. Zero.

 

[Statistikhengst]

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

Please trust me when I tell you that I've seen everything I need to see to have developed my opinion on this subject. If you have family members who treat that flag with reverence, I'll remind you of a well known quote.

"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

I don't know what that means

I didn't say they treat it with "reverence" -- our family's not a reverent or fetishistic bunch; I never saw any of us treat any flag with reverence. They just had some around -- as a decoration that declares one's roots. No different from growing up as the only kids in the neighborhood (in the North) who ate grits.

You gotta realize a symbol like a flag isn't monolithic in what it means to different people.

Obviously it means different things to different people. The American flag carries a very negative image in many parts of the world. That ISIS flag means religious liberty to some.

Here's the point. The only point that matters when it comes to the rebel flag. It is.....for a large portion of this nations populace.....a symbol of hatred and division. It is.....for all intents and purposes.....the banner of a former enemy of the United States of America. The entity / nation it once represented no longer exists. It has no place in the public square. Zero.

Bingo.

 

[Pogo]

It sure gave me a love of driving and travel and discovering other cultures.

Hmmmm. I grew up on military bases. I've lived in 16 different cities in 4 countries in my 50 years. But....none of that is needed to grasp the intent of the rebel flag.

Hmmmm... I suspect there's a visceral difference of experience between on one hand being in a place on a military base and on the other hand hanging there with one's family.

Please trust me when I tell you that I've seen everything I need to see to have developed my opinion on this subject. If you have family members who treat that flag with reverence, I'll remind you of a well known quote.

"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

I don't know what that means

I didn't say they treat it with "reverence" -- our family's not a reverent or fetishistic bunch; I never saw any of us treat any flag with reverence. They just had some around -- as a decoration that declares one's roots. No different from growing up as the only kids in the neighborhood (in the North) who ate grits.

You gotta realize a symbol like a flag isn't monolithic in what it means to different people.

Obviously it means different things to different people. The American flag carries a very negative image in many parts of the world. That ISIS flag means religious liberty to some.

Here's the point. The only point that matters when it comes to the rebel flag. It is.....for a large portion of this nation's populace.....a symbol of hatred and division. It is.....for all intents and purposes.....the banner of a former enemy of the United States of America. The entity / nation it once represented no longer exists. It has no place in the public square. Zero.

I personally don't think any flag has a place in the public square, partially for reasons related to the above. However, my point is you still can't declare what somebody's symbol means to them. Your first sentence in fact concedes that, and in that it's correct.

And I'd even beg to differ that the entity/nation it once represented no longer exists. Because culturally, in many corners outside the urban areas .... it does. It's reflected in lifestyles, language, food and drink, music... all the aspects that make up culture. And the S&B is part of that in the same way the Pilgrim icon is a symbol of Massachusetts or the magnolia invokes Mississippi.

Can the image be used as to hail and foment division, racism and hate? Sure it can, and it is. But that doesn't mean that is always the intent. We well know the Stars and Stripes is selectively used the same way. But to conclude that therefore that's what the American Flag means, period, is a bit like some wag on this board declaring "you just used an Alinsky tactic, therefore you're an Alinsky disciple", even if you've never heard of Alinsky.

Just saying, to the extent its display represents "speech" -- it must be treated as such, if we are to be true to our principles.