The Big Giant Tax Cut?

[usmbguest5318]

For the sake of accuracy, what employers don't do is pay more than they've allocated in their payroll budget. What one must pay is always precisely what everyone and anyone pays for everything they purchase when they purchase it. That sum is never more nor less than what one must pay to obtain the good or service at that place and moment in time.

The issue was rate of pay to employees.

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Now taxing a tax is double dipping in most anyone's vocabulary.

You're right, California should allow deduction of Federal Income and Payroll taxes.

Me thinks you should consider taking a class in tax accounting.

Now taxing a tax is double dipping in most anyone's vocabulary.

I don't know what most people would say.

"Double-taxation" is a very specific term that has a very specific meaning and it refers only to income tax. I and others like me who've studied tax accounting and law understand that double-taxation (DT) a single government entity's two times imposing a tax on a given asset or income stream, or transaction owned by a given individual.

DT occurs when a given dollar is taxed when a C-corp's profits are taxed and then, when the corporation distributes those profits to the owners of the corporation, taxed again as personal income. That is DT because the sums taxed belong to the firm's owners regardless of who has possession of them at any point in time. After all, the substance of stock ownership is that each share represents an ownership stake in a company; thus the company's profits/losses are owned by each shareholder. Dividends the company pays are merely distributions of those profits, returns to the equity each owner invested in the company, which why they are called "capital gains."

1. C-corp A sells shares of stock
2. C-corp A earns profits on behalf of the stockholders
3. Government F taxes C-corp's earning at the corporate level
4. C-corp A transfers a proportionate share of income to stockholders
5. Government F taxes that income again.

The taxation on C-corp income become triple-taxed, by dint of state income taxes, if the shareholders and C-corp both have a nexus in a given state.

To see the difference, one need only look at how S-corps, sole proprietorships and partnerships are taxed. Those entities do not pay income tax; instead filing only information returns. The profits earned under the auspices of those entities are passed to the owners and taxed as part of the owner's income.

That is very different from, say, my earning income and then spending it on good/service another provides and both of us paying taxes on our income. In that scenario, I and the supplier are unrelated parties; thus the income I spend with the supplier becomes their income and it duly taxable to me and to the supplier.

Me thinks you should consider taking a class in tax accounting.

Is that your way of saying California is going to continue taxing a tax?

DT occurs when a given dollar is taxed when a C-corp's profits are taxed and then, when the corporation distributes those profits to the owners of the corporation, taxed again as personal income.

Yeah, that's the worst. They need to stop doing that.

Is that your way of saying California is going to continue taxing a tax?

No.

that's the worst. They need to stop doing that.

I agree.

Is that your way of saying California is going to continue taxing a tax?

No.

If I live in California, they tax me on tax I've already paid to the Federal government.
They should stop doing that.

If I live in California, they tax me on tax I've already paid to the Federal government.
They should stop doing that.

I don't know whether, in writing that, you're being equivocal or just don't understand tax know what you're saying. Either way, you just keep thinking that....

Usually I just write the above and move on. I think you care about taxation, so I'm going to take a moment and explain at a very high level why I have written "you just keep thinking that..."

While I was willing to engage in enough didacticism to outline the basic tax equation, I'm not willing to expound on accounting and tax theory and tax practice. You and everyone else will have to take the same personal and corporate tax classes I did to discover those things. One can do so via stand-alone courses or as part of either a business baccalaureate accounting or graduate (LLM in Taxation, MBA or MS in Tax) degree program.

• Pearson's Federal Taxation
• S-Corporation Taxation
• Wolters Kluwer Tax texts

I, however, have yet to encounter anyone here whose remarks indicate they have the background and experience to make of any value or interest their and my debating/discussing tax theory and practice, most especially not someone who writes the statement you did. That statement indicates a level of novelty that just isn't worth this juncture pursuing further a discussion that depends on a keen understanding of tax theory.​

Do not misconstrue the above for haughtiness. It is not. It is simply my recognizing that I'm just not willing to put in the effort it'd take to disabuse you of the notion you stated. Truly I don't care enough to do so nor, you will find if you peruse any of the linked texts, do I have the time to do so.

TaxMan complained above.....

"Now taxing a tax is double dipping in most anyone's vocabulary. So to not be able to deduct property tax or state tax is a double tax on earnings"

Do you agree?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

For the sake of accuracy, what employers don't do is pay more than they've allocated in their payroll budget. What one must pay is always precisely what everyone and anyone pays for everything they purchase when they purchase it. That sum is never more nor less than what one must pay to obtain the good or service at that place and moment in time.

The issue was rate of pay to employees.

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

 

[OnePercenter]

I made $7.5M last year, with an official income of $1. I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax.

I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax

How many dollars did your "Trust" pay in taxes?

$228K

Trust tax rates are much higher than that.

View attachment 166483

Trusts and estates: Uses and tax considerations

Again, farm that trust through a Nevada corporation and see the results. Bill Gates and myself as many others are Nevada corporations.

Again, farm that trust through a Nevada corporation and see the results.

LOL!
Farm it through whatever you like, the federal rate is still 39.6%.

Of taxable income.

 

[OnePercenter]

For the sake of accuracy, what employers don't do is pay more than they've allocated in their payroll budget. What one must pay is always precisely what everyone and anyone pays for everything they purchase when they purchase it. That sum is never more nor less than what one must pay to obtain the good or service at that place and moment in time.

The issue was rate of pay to employees.

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

Arizona raised the State minimum wage to $10.00/hr. Arizona went from number 3 nationwide in poverty to number 8. There sir, is your answer.

Middle class is currently poverty level?

Lower middle class.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax

How many dollars did your "Trust" pay in taxes?

$228K

Trust tax rates are much higher than that.

View attachment 166483

Trusts and estates: Uses and tax considerations

Again, farm that trust through a Nevada corporation and see the results. Bill Gates and myself as many others are Nevada corporations.

Again, farm that trust through a Nevada corporation and see the results.

LOL!
Farm it through whatever you like, the federal rate is still 39.6%.

Of taxable income.

Of course. And a Nevada corporation does nothing to reduce your Federal taxable income.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

Arizona raised the State minimum wage to $10.00/hr. Arizona went from number 3 nationwide in poverty to number 8. There sir, is your answer.

Middle class is currently poverty level?

Lower middle class.

Income range?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

From what I see the group of people most at risk of getting slammed with a big tax increase are single filers earning over $157k who live in high tax blue states who purchased expensive homes.

The deduction for state income and property taxes are capped at $10k total, combined. In some blue states the property taxes alone on a home will exceed that cap, meaning they will lose the deduction for property taxes over $10k plus the entire deduction for state income taxes.

That could be thousands of dollars. The standard deduction was increased to $12k for single filers but that won't help if they are paying $20k in state income and property taxes. Married couples have more hope of avoiding the pinch as they get a $24k standard deduction.

You've managed to avoid the question.

Sure I can do that math.

I asked for your numbers, not some bloviating bullshit.

You want me to post my personal financial information on the internet? Ah...hell no

I made $7.5M last year, with an official income of $1. I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax.

I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax

How many dollars did your "Trust" pay in taxes?

 

[usmbguest5318]

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

Arizona raised the State minimum wage to $10.00/hr. Arizona went from number 3 nationwide in poverty to number 8. There sir, is your answer.

Middle class is currently poverty level?

Lower middle class.

A nice old house is nonetheless a nice house.
-- Xelor

​

???

Lower middle income (class) is, like upper middle income, by definition still a middle income, middle class. People having lower middle incomes are but "a step away" from being rightly classified as impoverished, but they are not, as members of the lower middle class, yet so.

• Are You in America's Middle Class?
  
• Which Income Class Are You?
• Who Belongs to the Lower Middle Class, and Why Does It Matter?

 

[usmbguest5318]

I asked for your numbers, not some bloviating bullshit.

You want me to post my personal financial information on the internet? Ah...hell no

I made $7.5M last year, with an official income of $1. I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax.

I paid ZERO in federal personal income tax

How many dollars did your "Trust" pay in taxes?

$228K

Trust tax rates are much higher than that.

View attachment 166483

Trusts and estates: Uses and tax considerations

For additional discussion on the matter, one may care to read the following:

• Income Tax Accounting for Trusts and Estates Planning allocations between entities and beneficiaries is even more critical with higher tax rates on the horizon.
• Overview of Fiduciary Income Taxation

Caveat: I don't yet know how the GOP's bill alters things for trusts.

 

[OnePercenter]

I agree. That is why I wrote what I did. Employee wages are nothing other than the price of labor, and labor is merely a service that employers purchase.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

It does, and it benefits the economy.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage and subsidize the increase to employers so employers don't get hurt. Plus, for each dollar spent it equates to $1.70 into the economy to help pay down the deficit, making the payback greater than 100%.

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

It does, and it benefits the economy.

Pricing unskilled and low skilled workers out of the job market is bad for the economy.

 

[OnePercenter]

That's why I wrote that if Trump actually wanted to help the middle class he'd institute a $15.00/hr federal minimum wage

Middle class is currently below $15/hr?

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

It does, and it benefits the economy.

Pricing unskilled and low skilled workers out of the job market is bad for the economy.

Unless the job is a certificate/licensed, and/or degreed position, ALL jobs are low/no skilled.

 

[Reasonable]

The Trump Tools don’t believe independent non partisan analysis of what this tax bill would do and not do.
But they believe what the federal government is telling them.
I thought the federal government cannot be trusted or believed.
Explain that one tools.

 

[buckeye45_73]

The biggest ever...according to President Trump.

I've watched and listened to politicians all my life. I've known for years that politicians are not particularly trustworthy. They often fudge the truth, or they talk around the truth, or they avoid giving a direct answer to a simple question. Sometimes they can be 100% for (or against) some issue unless (or until) it becomes politically unpopular to do so, at which point they'll make a 180 degree change of opinion and claim that it's a change of heart and not an expedient decision. It's difficult to maintain any real respect for men and women who have no real values and core beliefs, especially when they tend to preach about values to the rest of us.

There's actually one person and event that stands out in my mind in this regard. It's Newt Gingrich. It happened a few years when he was already out of office and didn't have to concern himself with any more elections or public opinion polls regarding his leadership. I mean, he already had a pretty darn sleazy reputation when it came to his personal life and his time in office, but he was now a private citizen, and one could argue that he could now give his honest opinion on a wide variety of topics. That is, if he chose to do so. I guess it was simply too much to expect from a man who spent his life paving the road to hell with bad intentions.

At any rate, the event happened a few years ago as Libya was in a meltdown, and Muammar Gaddafi was threatening to lay waste to one of his own cities (Benghazi, as it turns out) because of protests related to the Arab Spring movement. Well, Gingrich goes on TV and criticizes Obama for not taking military action. Then, days later when Obama DID take military action (without involving U.S. ground troops, by the way), Gingrich went on TV and criticized Obama for putting Americans in harm,s way. What? Six years later, he still hasn't changed his stripes considering that months ago he praised Robert Mueller and his unimpeachable credentials, and he now calls him corrupt.

You get the picture, I'm sure. But, as the title of this thread suggests, this thread isn't about Gingrich; it's about the big giant tax cut.

I went to a website that allowed me to calculate my big giant tax cut savings. It's a whopping one half of one percent. That's .005! That means that for every $100.00 in taxes I currently pay, I'll get 50 cents back. When I can't even measure the savings in paper currency, I don't think "big" is an accurate operative word to describe the tax cut.

But this thread isn't just about the so-called tax cut. It's about President Trump. I have never heard a politician lie as much, or as often, or as BIG as Trump does. And it's so blatant, so obvious, and so mind-numbingly transparent, that I'm befuddled as to why otherwise reasonable and usually rational people are taken in by all these glaring falsehoods.

The only solace I feel at this point is that I know that eventually the vast majority of liars and flimflam men are discovered for what they truly are. Additionally, the more public they are in their lying, the sooner it usually happens. I just can't figure out why more people haven't caught on about Trump by now. But with Trump's approval rating currently hovering around 32% at the end of his first year in office, I expect the fatigue and disillusionment factor to start gaining more traction in the months to come. Perhaps that will start to pick up more steam when the working class people who helped put him in office see their big giant tax cut next year. If that doesn't do it, perhaps it will happen when estimates are put forward about how much money the entire Trump family will save in taxes yearly. Keep in mind that Trump said he would not benefit from the big middle class tax cut. See what I mean about the lying?

It's ironic because he makes sweeping gestures, just as you democrats do. Its the worst tax cut in history, it's the worst whatever in history, you'll kill children, they will starve, ect, ect. Now we have someone that can talk as much shit as you guys do.....but thank your for letting us know, it's not a huge amount, so it should be easy to pass and not cause a huge impact on the deficit.

 

[buckeye45_73]

If Trump really cared about the middle-class worker, he would has established a federal $15.00/hr minimum wage and given businesses a tax credit to offset the additional wage. Of course predator companies such as Trump International wouldn't like that.

$15 an hour is a middle class wage? Yeah back in 1980

typical democrat, the middle class means you have a job.........it's hilarious.....they still think heads of households get paid min wage........

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

It does, and it benefits the economy.

Pricing unskilled and low skilled workers out of the job market is bad for the economy.

Unless the job is a certificate/licensed, and/or degreed position, ALL jobs are low/no skilled.

Whoever told you your federal tax rate on your trust was 3% was low skilled.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Trump Tools don’t believe independent non partisan analysis of what this tax bill would do and not do.
But they believe what the federal government is telling them.
I thought the federal government cannot be trusted or believed.
Explain that one tools.

don’t believe independent non partisan analysis of what this tax bill would do and not do.

No one believes liberal "non-partisan" analysis.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I don't recall who, but I do recall some moths back being rebutted by someone on USMB who declared, in substance, that $15/hr is, in some U.S. locales, enough to support a middle class lifestyle.

My thoughts on the veracity or even plausibility of that proposition is that can be found folks of all sorts who harbor myriad specious notions.

If that claim were true, the middle class is not helped by bringing others up to the middle class.

Oh, my....

Achieving existential middle-class status is not a zero-sum undertaking.

If middle class is not achieved until you hit $15/hr, raising those making $12/hr up to $15/hr
does not benefit the middle class.

It does, and it benefits the economy.

Pricing unskilled and low skilled workers out of the job market is bad for the economy.

Unless the job is a certificate/licensed, and/or degreed position, ALL jobs are low/no skilled.

ALL jobs are low/no skilled.

What? Oh, perhaps you mean the job of CEO as held by degree-less Bill Gates or Steve Jobs? Yeah, I guess you're right, all jobs are low/now skill jobs....Seriously?

Note: I, Xelor, did not in the above quoted passage stress "all;" OnePercenter did.

 

[Mustang]

What happened to Trump's pledge of getting rid of the low taxation rate of 14% paid by hedge fund managers which is known as "carried interest"?

It's amazing to me. Trump claims his tax plan wouldn't benefit himself personally, but he enriches himself with the tax plan nonetheless with a last minute add on while also screwing his most ardent white lower income non college-educated supporters, and they still sing his praises.

Maybe if they actually went to college, they wouldn't be so easily duped...