The 47% Strawman

Discussion in 'Politics' started by IndependntLogic, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. IndependntLogic
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    IndependntLogic Senior Member

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    I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
    So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
    This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
    1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
    2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
    3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

    So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
    Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."
     
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  2. Quantum Windbag
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    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

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    Sigh. Why are you using a strawman to attack a strawman? The actual statistic is that 47% of workers do not pay federal income taxes.

    None of which are federal, just saying.

    No I do not. They pay the exact same rate I do, on the amount I earn. When they go above a certain income they pay less on anything above that.

    By the way, nobody anywhere gets tax breaks for shipping jobs overseas. If you are actually a businessman, something which I sincerely doubt given your complete inabilty to actually articulate how taxes work, you would know that what actually happens is that businesses get taxed for keeping jobs in the US. The ones that can afford to move their production then move it overseas to avoid the local taxes.

    That actually makes two false statments in a post where you are arguing against strawmen. Most people would call that ironic, but I actually know what ironic means.

    I deferred my income once to avoid taxes, and I was making far less than a million dollars. That was a few years ago, and I understand the process is more complicated now, but you can still do it if you get a large raise.

    By the way, being smart and rich doesn't help. It turns out that Romney, who has teams of lawyers and accountants, actually overpaid his taxes by $44,000 last year. If the tax code is actually biased to help rich people how did he end up paying more than he needed to?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/b...taxes-than-he-owed-high-low-finance.html?_r=1

    Considering how little you actually know about taxes I feel pretty safe ignoring your predictions of doom.
     
  3. IndependntLogic
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    IndependntLogic Senior Member

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    Ah it's you. Cowards hide behind the anonymity of the net and claim they deferred taxes etc... Real people don't have to. Google my name and I'm the first three entries. Look at my profiel and waddya know, our corporate website! Your turn. What? You can't? You're just SO important that the Rockafellers would be upset if you did?
    You may now continue being full of crap. Not that that is surprising.
    Oh, and you deferred NINETY PERCENT of your income? yeah okay... Oh wait. You couldn't do THAT could you? Seems the law is designed specifically to be advantageous to those who can defer an enormous percentage of their income doesn't it? NM. Kool-aid clouds the thinking.
     
  4. Quantum Windbag
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    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

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    I averaged my taxes when I got a reenlistment bonus while I was in the Navy. That was pretty common back when Reagan was president, even if the rules are different now. Want to try again, or do you want to throw up more logical fallacies?

    Just because you have a corporation does not mean you understand taxes. The one thing I learned when I studied taxes in school was that all businessmen should have a CPA on retainer. Go talk to your CPA and ask him how to get a tax break for moving a business overseas. After he tells you that no such break exists feel free to come back here and apologize for trying to act like you know what you are talking about.
     
  5. DaGoose
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    DaGoose Gold Member

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    Sounds like your CPA should be apologizing to you. Or simply fired.

    A look at the world's new corporate tax havens - CBS News
     
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  6. editec
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    editec Mr. Forgot-it-All

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    Pretty much everybody pays taxes even if they don't pay Federal income taxes.

    About 15% of my gross income goes to real estate taxes, sales taxes, and or fees that in many places many people pay as local RE taxes (in my case that's water, sewage, garbage removal fees too). I also pay federal taxes on gas and heating fuel, on my computer connection, on my phone, too.

    The cost of FEDERAL government is mostly paid by those with higher than average incomes, that is true.

    But the costs of all other governments (local and state) are largely (and more than fairly borne, too) by the rest of the population.
     
  7. chanel
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    chanel Silver Member

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    Don't worry independent. Obama only wants to eliminate the mortgage interest deduction for the "evil rich". :cuckoo:

    Want To Save $215 Billion? Eliminate the Mortgage Deduction - Developments - WSJ

    Punish the rich. Destroy the housing market. Cripple the banks. It's all part of the program. :evil:
     
  8. healthmyths
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    healthmyths Gold Member Supporting Member

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    Why instead of "guessing" USE the internet and find the following TAX LOOPHOLES used to reduce the tax payments!

    In 2008 - these are the specific deductions
    1) $131 billion - Exclusion of employer medical insurance premiums and medical care
    2) $117 billion - Net exclusion of pension contributions and earnings
    3) $88 - Mortgage interest on owner-occupied homes
    4) $55 - Accelerated depreciation of machinery and equipment
    5) $49 - Deductibility of non business state and local taxes
    6) $46 - Deductibility of charitable contributions
    7) $31 - Deferral of income from controlled foreign corporations
    8) $30 - Capital gains exclusion on home sales
    9) $29 - Deductibility of State and local property tax on owner-occupied homes
    10) $28 - Child credit
    11) $24 - Capital gains (except agriculture,timber, and coal)
    12) $21 - Step-up basis of capital gains at death

    What are the largest tax expenditures?


    OBAMA took less the 14% of his $1.7 million taxable income in donations! LOOP HOLE!
    OBAMA has written off an average of $100,000 a YEAR EACH YEAR for NOL! LOOP HOLE!

    NOW you Obama.."tax the millionaires,billionaires???
    AGAIN go to the FACTS from the IRS and see what people pay in Federal TAXES!

    SOI Tax Stats - Individual Statistical Tables by Size of Adjusted Gross Income

    You will if YOU TAKE THE TIME AS I have that:
    THOSE FILTHY EVIL people that stole $5 million to $10 million or more a year???
    those 14,236 people PAID 29.1% of their INCOME in taxes!!!

    THESE filthy evil people PAID THE LARGEST percentage of taxable income of the 140 million returns!
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  9. mudwhistle
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    mudwhistle Diamond Member

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    Funny how only the libs thanked you but failed to realize you're not siding with them.
     
  10. mudwhistle
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    mudwhistle Diamond Member

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    If you own property you pay through the nose in taxes.

    I have to come up with $25,000 every year to pay my taxes. My folks lost their home because they couldn't pay their's.

    When I hear this Bull Shit about Romney not paying enough taxes I know it's total crapola.
     

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