Technology that brought us recorded sound improvements

[LittleNipper]

Below is a 1927 Victor Orthophonic (Electric) Victrola. The motor running the turntable is electric (a wind-up was still available); however, while the record was recorded electrically by microphone (one take), playback was still acoustic (mechanical). BUT the horn was sealed from the soundbox (pickup) out to the opening and was folded upon itself to amplify the sound and bring out the base tones. Recorded here is the Charleston by the great band conductor of the period Paul Whitman. The cabinet style is William and Mary Revival --- a (traditional) style popular at that time along with the "modern" Art Deco.

My foster father was one of the 2 pianists on this.

If you've never watched the movie It's a Wonderful Life, please do. I suspect that George and Mary are about to take the plunge into the high school's new gym pool everytime I hear that Charleston played. They took the cup even though it was a former OUR GANG MEMBER who unlocks the floor mechanism exposing the pool!!!

 

[toobfreak]

Let's move on to a 1940 (Pre US involvement in World War II). This machine could only play one side of the record. (more than likely the A side). The records would have to be hand stacked in order to play the flip side. These machines were a wonder of plastic, lights, and bubbles!

Sorry Nipper, but so far these advancements you mention while interesting and historic, are crude and represent nothing in the true advancement of analog phonographic sound reproduction with the goal being to approach that of the original live sound. I know because a friend and I were two people who personally developed many technologies which achieved exactly that. The true state of the art in what is possible in home music reproduction is light years beyond what most people have, or have ever even seen, read about or dreamed of.

You need to realize that great sound needs a great recording surface and great groove tracking and great amplification. All of this takes development and often there needs to be a reason for such development. And frankly, it was often the commercial aspects of the record industry that moved everything forward towards far greater achievements. Depressions and Wars both helped and hindered such developments for the general population. The post war eras (both 1st and 2nd) witnessed the greatest advances. 1920's with electrical (Orthophonic) and the 1950's with High Fidelity (wall of sound) and soon to follow STEREOPHONIC SOUND!

Hey Nipper, as a retired engineer that for a time worked in the pro sound world that has spent a lifetime perfecting my own proprietary audio technology, I can tell you that great recording surfaces have been around since at least the 1960's------ I have LP's from the late 60's that still play like new and are so clean and quiet they are hard to tell apart from a CD and sound next to live played over the right gear; that great recording technology to capture full, live sound has existed since at least the 1950s and possibly earlier; that the ultimate in groove tracking was perfected in the 1970s by a company called Transcriptors of Ireland and that tangential error is only one factor along with stylus design, motor technology and tracking force; as well as great amplification being around since at least the 1950s with David Hafler's and others work such as Quad and Leek in the area of both mono and stereo designs using both single ended and push-pull low FB Class A and AB designs using wideband output xformers like Acrosound, along with OTL amplifiers to follow. The advances you illustrate and mention here are trivial compared to the advances to follow including half-speed mastering, the development of the strain gauge eliminating the need of RIAA equalization altogether, along with other circuit advances some of which I helped pioneer but cannot go into detail on as they are proprietary and have never been made commercially available.

Commercial products were driven by designed obsolescence which limited available sound quality made available to the consumer because commercialization requires constant release of new models every year. That and the advent of digital was the death knell of ultimate audio perfection because along with digital came the great lie that digital was "perfect sound forever" where nothing could have been further from the truth with the 16-bit SPDIF format (it was about 8 bits short). The result today is that stereo has all but disappeared from the stores and homes and people now think that MP3 files downloaded from their computers listened to on earbud speakers is good "music" along with the general dearth of good, innovative new bands and sounds these days, but I can tell you that with the right gear, the dreams of those analog sound engineers of WWI and WWII is not lost and you CAN get absolutely clean 130dB sound pressure levels with +50dB SNR of absolutely live, strain-free, fatigue-free sound IS possible that puts the live performance right in your living room better than the actual live venue!

 

[Muhammed]

JCM800

 

[toobfreak]

I'll skip to the chase and show you some of the state of the art. With amplifiers and speakers, it is pretty hard to judge---- generally, the prettier they are the more expensive, but "pretty" has no correlation with quality of reproduction. But here are a few turntables. The first two represent the insane state of the art. I'm not sure what they cost nor sure that they really give true benefits. The last is the best turntable I own, and it has definite benefit. It has no tonearm, tracks at 1/10th the force used by other turntables and rather than an arm bringing the needle to the groove, it brings the record to a stationary needle. Enjoy.

 

[LittleNipper]

Well, just to prove that there is nothing new under the sun; here is a 1912 EDISON OPERA PHONOGRAPH which has a stationary diamond stylus and the record is propelled laterally in order to play the cylinder. This was considered to be Edison's ultimate outside horn cylinder machine and cost a pretty penny in its day. The sound quality of the acoustic exterior horn model were considered by contemporary record collectors of the day to be superior in tone to the "Victrola" style machines --- because the horns were not flattened to fit inside the cabinets. However, housewives found the "Victrola" style cabinets easier to clean and the machines were less of an "eyesore' to the parlour. Practicality always seems to win over virtuosity.

 

[toobfreak]

Well, just to prove that there is nothing new under the sun; here is a 1912 EDISON OPERA PHONOGRAPH which has a stationary diamond stylus and the record is propelled laterally in order to play the cylinder.

You obviously don't know the first thing you are talking about, Nip. Your Edison machine above drove the music cylinder on an open loop screw feed to the stylus, yes, but only because the stylus mechanism was this massive, unmovable assembly part of that big honking horn! And it bore down on the record groove so hard it literally took away shavings with each play. It was done this way as a matter of necessity. Modern machines move the record to the stylus as a matter of ADVANTAGE, not necessity, driven by a closed-loop active servo feedback controlled by a photo-optic coupler taking its signal from the spiraling in of the actual groove (without touching it)! And the point being so that they can reduce the moving mass of the tonearm to almost zero in order to lighten tracking force dramatically (1/10th gram) which allows for a whole new breed of special phono pickup motors to be designed, the best of which no longer even involve magnets so as to remove the effects of magnetic hysteresis from the production of the audio signal which also cancels the need for the complicated RIAA EQ circuitry in the preamp.

The Edison may have ONE similarity in principle, but in implementation, it is like a row boat next to a warp powered starship. Interesting nostalgia value but worthless for true high fidelity playback.

 

[LittleNipper]

Well, just to prove that there is nothing new under the sun; here is a 1912 EDISON OPERA PHONOGRAPH which has a stationary diamond stylus and the record is propelled laterally in order to play the cylinder.

You obviously don't know the first thing you are talking about, Nip. Your Edison machine above drove the music cylinder on an open loop screw feed to the stylus, yes, but only because the stylus mechanism was this massive, unmovable assembly part of that big honking horn! And it bore down on the record groove so hard it literally took away shavings with each play. It was done this way as a matter of necessity. Modern machines move the record to the stylus as a matter of ADVANTAGE, not necessity, driven by a closed-loop active servo feedback controlled by a photo-optic coupler taking its signal from the spiraling in of the actual groove (without touching it)! And the point being so that they can reduce the moving mass of the tonearm to almost zero in order to lighten tracking force dramatically (1/10th gram) which allows for a whole new breed of special phono pickup motors to be designed, the best of which no longer even involve magnets so as to remove the effects of magnetic hysteresis from the production of the audio signal which also cancels the need for the complicated RIAA EQ circuitry in the preamp.

The Edison may have ONE similarity in principle, but in implementation, it is like a row boat next to a warp powered starship. Interesting nostalgia value but worthless for true high fidelity playback.

Well, you may be mistaken in your opinion of the Edison machines: 1st, I know of very few electronic devices that still survive after 50 years --- let alone playable after 100. 2ndly, the old records are still very playable ---- with many well over 100 years old. And I NEVER suggested that the stereo's and quadraphonics of the 60's and 80's are not superior in their functioning. However, the total reality is that man didn't jump from tinfoil to stereo overnight ------- and unplug that stereophonic player or turn off the juice and the old Victrola will still play circles around them --- just wind it up!

And while we are on the subject, I find that much of the music of today (if it can be called that) isn't worth the purchase of a cheap transistor radio let alone a 200 thousand dollar turntable!

You seem like a nice guy, but buddy, you've got to lighten up a bit -------- come in out of the rain ----you'll live longer.

 

[G.T.]

Pro Tools with Waves plug-ins

 

[toobfreak]

Well, you may be mistaken in your opinion of the Edison machines: 1st, I know of very few electronic devices that still survive after 50 years --- let alone playable after 100.

I never argued that point. But then, I have lots of tube amps laying around 70 years old that look, work and sound good as new. If a cap goes bad with age, you just replace it.

2ndly, the old records are still very playable ---- with many well over 100 years old.

There's a big difference between playable and whether I'd want to seriously listen to it. Apparently you have no conception on how good the equipment I've been talking about sounds! I have ten octave sound, that's from about 15 cycles to well past 16K, almost flat. I knock things off shelves on the other side of the house.

And I NEVER suggested that the stereo's and quadraphonics of the 60's and 80's are not superior in their functioning. However, the total reality is that man didn't jump from tinfoil to stereo overnight ------- and unplug that stereophonic player or turn off the juice and the old Victrola will still play circles around them --- just wind it up!

Quadraphonic was a huge mistake and it never lived up to its promise of more realistic sound. It was just a gimmick. In fact, I can produce surround sound in my home theater from two channels that is better than any Dolby 5.1 I've ever heard (using a special processor).

And while we are on the subject, I find that much of the music of today (if it can be called that) isn't worth the purchase of a cheap transistor radio let alone a 200 thousand dollar turntable!

You might be right. There is very little music past (or even into) the 80s that I find appealing.

You seem like a nice guy, but buddy, you've got to lighten up a bit -------- come in out of the rain ----you'll live longer.

Music and these old players might be a hobby for you, but for me, music is my life. I've devoted much of my life to its perfection.

 

[LittleNipper]

Think of it this way: An antique photograph has certain characteristics that make it less than crystal clear. There is the fact of no color. There are the sepia tones and characteristics that still make of it a work of art. The very same can be attributed to early recordings. Yes they do lack a precise reproduction of the original artist; however, they possess an inherited charm which renders them forever a work of art --- though decidedly a curiosity of a time gone by... And yes, I would say that Monte Cristo played on the Edison Opera is and of itself very lovely and full of charm (making it no less brilliant than riding on the Titanic, when one could certainly travel in a jet liner faster with less threat from icebergs). I think I shall retreat to my stateroom and listen to my Edison while I read The House of Mirth.