Sunni man ADMITS the goal of Islam is to take over non Islamic Countries

[strollingbones]

as a person who belongs to neither religion....i find both.....oppressive.....again its the lesser of two evils

 

[NeoTemplar]

My only concern would be if women were somehow worse off from the Sharia judgement than they would have been that of a standard court - I think that needs to be guarded against.

A muslim woman is better off going to a Sharia Court than a standard Civil Court.

Because her concerns will be addressed and judged according to Sharia; basically the Quran and Hadith; thus the outcome will be in line with Islam and not some bogus made up Western secular law.

You mean shes better of going to a Sharia court because she will get less, civil courts in the west are stacked in the womens favor.

 

[chanel]

Baloney. Take a look at Britain where 85 Sharia courts are operating.

'Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.'

Examples set out in his study include a ruling that no Muslim woman may marry a non-Muslim man unless he converts to Islam and that any children of a woman who does should be taken from her until she marries a Muslim.

Further rulings, according to the report, approve polygamous marriage and enforce a woman's duty to have sex with her husband on his demand.

The report added: 'The fact that so many sharia rulings in Britain relate to cases concerning divorce and custody of children is of particular concern, as women are not equal in sharia law, and sharia contains no specific commitment to the best interests of the child that is fundamental to family law in the UK.

'Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances.'

Read more: Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors | Mail Online

 

[Hollie]

Pale Rider -

No, I'm not ignorant - I'm just better informed than you are.

I suggest you check how Sharia law is working in the UK, and let me know whay your concerns are then.

In reality there are as many variations as to what Sharia Law means as there are countries which use it, but of the 20 or so countries which do use it, only in 4 does it actually mean the kind of sinsiter, draconian stone age punishments that we would all fight against.

Even in most muslim countries, it is largely used not for ciminal, contract or civil law, but to settle divorces, inheritances etc.

It seems to me that your comments about sharia are its most damaging indictment. Islamist sharia is term that loosely defines a 7th century theocratic code. That code has not clawed its way out of the 7th century.

Ultimately, a parallel, theocratic legal system is bound to conflict with Western standards of justice.

The majority muslim belief is that Sharia is formulated from two sources, although objectively, both of those sources derive from muhammud. One: his claim to divine revelation being set forth in the koran and two: muslims' belief that the life of muhammud is the example for all mankind. An objective observer with no prior commitment to islamist dogma has no reason to believe muhammud's claimed revelations were actual communications from one or more gods. Further, muhammud's example as a model for humanity is entirely a product of islamic dogma and I can think of far better human examples for humanity than muhammud.

The problem with applying the attributes of a 7 th century warlord as the model for humanity is that you are left with a static model.

I think it's clear that a broader cross-section of evidence provides a better defined consensus. In a Western ( I'll reference U.S.) court of law (a body designed for evidence gathering and fact finding), we use depositions of multiple witnesses, documentary evidence and the process of discovery to reveal the truth. As I am aware, those procedures are not available when an ancient theocratic code is used as a model for justice.
Further (and as I understand it), the is little or nothing in the way of qualifications applied to those who rule in a sharia court. How many people would want to be hauled up in front of a Dark Age addled cleric who finds you guilty because he's directed by god instead of being directed by hard evidence?

Does anyone know what qualifications have to be met to be a judge on a sharia court?


The Big Question: How do Britain's sharia courts work, and are they a good thing? - Home News - UK - The Independent

 

[NeoTemplar]

Baloney. Take a look at Britain where 85 Sharia courts are operating.

Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.'

Examples set out in his study include a ruling that no Muslim woman may marry a non-Muslim man unless he converts to Islam and that any children of a woman who does should be taken from her until she marries a Muslim.

Further rulings, according to the report, approve polygamous marriage and enforce a woman's duty to have sex with her husband on his demand.

The report added: 'The fact that so many sharia rulings in Britain relate to cases concerning divorce and custody of children is of particular concern, as women are not equal in sharia law, and sharia contains no specific commitment to the best interests of the child that is fundamental to family law in the UK.

'Under sharia, a male child belongs to the father after the age of seven, regardless of circumstances.'

Read more: Britain has 85 sharia courts: The astonishing spread of the Islamic justice behind closed doors | Mail Online

Is this your version of Equality Sunni Man? How bout you Saigon?

 

[strollingbones]

if you read the christian bible....it allows you to sell your daughter as a slave.....you can take slaves as long as they are from another tribe...slaves should not rise up against their masters....you should not have sex till 7 days after a woman stops bleeding.....the list just goes on and on....both are oppressive to women...

 

[Saigon]

Hollie -

I really have no idea what you are talking about.

Surely the fact that Sharia Courts can operate in western socities, and generally do so smoothly and without major clashes, proves that it is NOT stuck in the 7th century?

Again, only 4 of the 18 Islamic countries operate Sharia Law in anything like the form used in the 7th century. Those 4 countries are stuck in a time warp, but the great majority of countries moved on naturally and in their own time years ago.

btw, the Courts in Britain are not Courts in the full sense of the word. It's more like an arbitration process, but they can not pass legal judgements, only provide advice and suggestions - at least that is how I understand it.

 

[Saigon]

Chanel, Neo Templar -

'Among the rulings we find some that advise illegal actions and others that transgress human rights standards as applied by British courts.'

As I said earlier, it is essential that we maintain our codes of civil rights, and not allow people to opt out of them, even if they choose to.

I think it needs to be clear to everyone working around Sharia courts that womens rights are enshrined within secular law, and Sharia courts need to work within those laws.

 

[strollingbones]

i have always wondered how christians would feel about majority rule...when they became the minority....

 

[Sunni Man]

As I said earlier, it is essential that we maintain our codes of civil rights, and not allow people to opt out of them, even if they choose to.

I think it needs to be clear to everyone working around Sharia courts that womens rights are enshrined within secular law, and Sharia courts need to work within those laws.

The whole idea of Sharia Courts is to allow muslim people; both men and women, to opt out secular laws and judgements.

 

[Seawytch]

I just love these "my religion is better than yours" threads. Or are we playing the "your religion is worse" game? They are so similar, it's hard to tell...

 

[strollingbones]

i am against opting out of our system of justice.....

 

[NeoTemplar]

As I said earlier, it is essential that we maintain our codes of civil rights, and not allow people to opt out of them, even if they choose to.

I think it needs to be clear to everyone working around Sharia courts that womens rights are enshrined within secular law, and Sharia courts need to work within those laws.

The whole idea of Sharia Courts is to allow muslim people; both men and women, to opt out secular laws and judgements.

Thats impossible everyone is subject to secular law no exceptions, well unless your rich, anyway Muslims are not special therefore they cannot opt put of secular law i mean if we allowed anyone to do that it would be chaos because there would be no order and everyone would just do whatever the hell they feel like regardless of what any law says.

 

[Saigon]

As I said earlier, it is essential that we maintain our codes of civil rights, and not allow people to opt out of them, even if they choose to.

I think it needs to be clear to everyone working around Sharia courts that womens rights are enshrined within secular law, and Sharia courts need to work within those laws.

The whole idea of Sharia Courts is to allow muslim people; both men and women, to opt out secular laws and judgements.

That is fine - but disenfranchising women through lousy divorce settlements is not fine.

From my point of view, Sharia courts are welcome here, but only inasmuch as the rights of women are guaranteed to be just as they would in a secular court.

 

[NeoTemplar]

I just love these "my religion is better than yours" threads. Or are we playing the "your religion is worse" game? They are so similar, it's hard to tell...

Are you really that ignorant or are you just trolling?

 

[strollingbones]

neo...you are aware the native americans opt out of the western justice system....on reservations...they have their own laws and courts

 

[Ravi]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-when-america-becomes-an-islamic-country.html

We have had this discussion before and been told it just isn't true. That there is no effort by Islam to convert other Countries, that there is no danger that Islam would create a climate where Western Democracies were converted to Sharia law and no longer democratic at all.

I have told you all that Islam preaches that it must take over the planet. That is it's goal. Islam believes that all the world must be Islamic. And they do not believe in separation of Church and State. Islam teaches that Allah must run every thing including the Government.

There are two schools of thought on how to achieve this goal. One is that they must just bide their time and allow their birth rate and monolithic approach to convert those Countries currently not Islamic. The second is that by violence they can achieve more quickly the goal.

Sunni man has admitted to us at last that HIS goal and that of his religion is the overthrow of the democratic Government of the US and replace it with Islamic rule and Sharia law.

He's shit out of luck. Just like you are shit out of luck in getting the bible to rule the US.

 

[strollingbones]

I just love these "my religion is better than yours" threads. Or are we playing the "your religion is worse" game? They are so similar, it's hard to tell...

Are you really that ignorant or are you just trolling?

seems to me....she is simply stating the obvious......

you do realize there are people who adhere to other belief systems that are amazed to watch the pot calling the kettle black

 

[Sunni Man]

That is fine - but disenfranchising women through lousy divorce settlements is not fine.

From my point of view, Sharia courts are welcome here, but only inasmuch as the rights of women are guaranteed to be just as they would in a secular court.

The rights of women are upheld in Sharia Law.

Yes, they are different than in secular Civil Law.

But, they are fair and just according to Islam; and that's what we care about and adhere to.

 

[Seawytch]

I just love these "my religion is better than yours" threads. Or are we playing the "your religion is worse" game? They are so similar, it's hard to tell...

Are you really that ignorant or are you just trolling?

seems to me....she is simply stating the obvious......

you do realize there are people who adhere to other belief systems that are amazed to watch the pot calling the kettle black

Or adhere to none at all (or all of them, I haven't decided )