Stats About Israeli And Palestinian In ME

[Shusha]

OK but what were some of the offers and why were they refused, i.e. what were the clunkers in those offers?

Yeah, clunkers like Olmert's -- "Here's everything you asked for".

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK but what were some of the offers and why were they refused, i.e. what were the clunkers in those offers?

Yeah, clunkers like Olmert's -- "Here's everything you asked for".

Oh really? Did the Palestinians get the Jordan Valley and open borders to Jordan?

 

[Shusha]

OK but what were some of the offers and why were they refused, i.e. what were the clunkers in those offers?

Yeah, clunkers like Olmert's -- "Here's everything you asked for".

Oh really? Did the Palestinians get the Jordan Valley and open borders to Jordan?

Um. Yes, actually. They just also got a temporary Israeli presence there to monitor the crossings as an early warning system in order to prevent security problems like those which arose in Gaza after the disengagement.

The fact that this was rejected indicates that one of the things Palestinians want in their "peace treaty" is the ability to attack and presumably try to destroy Israel. In other words, they want the "peace treaty" to aide them in continuing the conflict.

Which means that Israel, by putting in place concrete, practical solutions is the one MAKING peace. And Palestinians, in trying to prevent security arrangements, are the ones who are AVOIDING peace.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore

I notice you didn't respond to my post about the formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq being illegal. What? Hoping that if you ignore me, no one will notice your hypocrisy and your inconsistency in your application of international law?

The formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, more or less, followed international law.

Palestine was the aberration. International law was not a consideration.

 

[Shusha]

P F Tinmore

I notice you didn't respond to my post about the formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq being illegal. What? Hoping that if you ignore me, no one will notice your hypocrisy and your inconsistency in your application of international law?

The formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, more or less, followed international law.

Palestine was the aberration. International law was not a consideration.

Your claim was that the thing which made the formation of Israel illegal was that people "got the boot". That was the source of the illegality. Yet people "got the boot" in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq as well.

So you need to either withdraw your statement as to the cause of the illegality or explain why people "getting the boot" in some places is illegal and not in others, using actual law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK but what were some of the offers and why were they refused, i.e. what were the clunkers in those offers?

Yeah, clunkers like Olmert's -- "Here's everything you asked for".

Oh really? Did the Palestinians get the Jordan Valley and open borders to Jordan?

Um. Yes, actually. They just also got a temporary Israeli presence there to monitor the crossings as an early warning system in order to prevent security problems like those which arose in Gaza after the disengagement.

The fact that this was rejected indicates that one of the things Palestinians want in their "peace treaty" is the ability to attack and presumably try to destroy Israel. In other words, they want the "peace treaty" to aide them in continuing the conflict.

Which means that Israel, by putting in place concrete, practical solutions is the one MAKING peace. And Palestinians, in trying to prevent security arrangements, are the ones who are AVOIDING peace.

Um. Yes, actually. They just also got a temporary Israeli presence there to monitor the crossings as an early warning system in order to prevent security problems like those which arose in Gaza after the disengagement.​

That looks more like a no than a yes.

 

[Shusha]

That looks more like a no than a yes.

That looks to me like a complete avoidance of the substance of the argument -- which is that Palestine will accept no peace treaty which does not give them everything they ask for including the right to continue the conflict through use of armed force.

Who is avoiding peace, then?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore

I notice you didn't respond to my post about the formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq being illegal. What? Hoping that if you ignore me, no one will notice your hypocrisy and your inconsistency in your application of international law?

The formation of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, more or less, followed international law.

Palestine was the aberration. International law was not a consideration.

Your claim was that the thing which made the formation of Israel illegal was that people "got the boot". That was the source of the illegality. Yet people "got the boot" in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq as well.

So you need to either withdraw your statement as to the cause of the illegality or explain why people "getting the boot" in some places is illegal and not in others, using actual law.

There is more than one issue about Israel. I just mentioned the most well known.

Whatever violations that may have occurred in other countries do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That looks more like a no than a yes.

That looks to me like a complete avoidance of the substance of the argument -- which is that Palestine will accept no peace treaty which does not give them everything they ask for including the right to continue the conflict through use of armed force.

Who is avoiding peace, then?

The closing of the border with Jordan has been called the Gazafication of the West Bank. No doubt that is unacceptable.

 

[Shusha]

Whatever violations that may have occurred in other countries do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

Of course not. I'm not saying that anything negates the rights of the Palestinians. But you are, in point of fact, negating the rights of Jewish "Palestinians".

You are doing it by claiming that Israel was illegally created. You are claiming that the thing which was illegal was "giving people the boot". Since people "got the boot" in other countries which were created during the same time frame, through the same existing international law, and through mostly the same legal instruments -- your claim of illegality extends to many other countries, including Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

So what should we do with all these illegal nations?

 

[Shusha]

The closing of the border with Jordan has been called the Gazafication of the West Bank. No doubt that is unacceptable.

Ah, but you've turned a temporary early warning monitoring of the border into a border closure, as if those two were the same thing. They are not. (Though, Jordan, of course, would have every right to close its border with Palestine should it so choose. There is no international legal requirement for open borders.)

You are forced to falsely portray the peace offer in order to justify not accepting it.

Again, who is the one rejecting peace?

 

[Shusha]

The closing of the border with Jordan has been called the Gazafication of the West Bank. No doubt that is unacceptable.

In order for the West Bank to be "Gazified" (oooh, lovely word) several conditions would have to be satisfied on the West Bank side: importation of weapons, attacks on Israel's territory and citizens, incitement, lack of resources committed to the well-being of West Bank citizens, lack of resources committed to economic growth. I would agree all this is absolutely unacceptable, wouldn't you?

If those in the West Bank act no better with respect to creating peace than the Gazans do, they should expect the same result. But it truly is up to them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The closing of the border with Jordan has been called the Gazafication of the West Bank. No doubt that is unacceptable.

In order for the West Bank to be "Gazified" (oooh, lovely word) several conditions would have to be satisfied on the West Bank side: importation of weapons, attacks on Israel's territory and citizens, incitement, lack of resources committed to the well-being of West Bank citizens, lack of resources committed to economic growth. I would agree all this is absolutely unacceptable, wouldn't you?

If those in the West Bank act no better with respect to creating peace than the Gazans do, they should expect the same result. But it truly is up to them.

There is already a closure of the West Bank. It is just not as severe as the one in Gaza.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Whatever violations that may have occurred in other countries do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

Of course not. I'm not saying that anything negates the rights of the Palestinians. But you are, in point of fact, negating the rights of Jewish "Palestinians".

You are doing it by claiming that Israel was illegally created. You are claiming that the thing which was illegal was "giving people the boot". Since people "got the boot" in other countries which were created during the same time frame, through the same existing international law, and through mostly the same legal instruments -- your claim of illegality extends to many other countries, including Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

So what should we do with all these illegal nations?

But you are, in point of fact, negating the rights of Jewish "Palestinians".

Not so. I have upheld those rights.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Whatever violations that may have occurred in other countries do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

Of course not. I'm not saying that anything negates the rights of the Palestinians. But you are, in point of fact, negating the rights of Jewish "Palestinians".

You are doing it by claiming that Israel was illegally created. You are claiming that the thing which was illegal was "giving people the boot". Since people "got the boot" in other countries which were created during the same time frame, through the same existing international law, and through mostly the same legal instruments -- your claim of illegality extends to many other countries, including Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

So what should we do with all these illegal nations?

So what should we do with all these illegal nations?​

Good question, but it is not the Palestinian's job to solve the problems of others. They have enough problems of their own.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Whatever violations that may have occurred in other countries do not negate the rights of the Palestinians.

Of course not. I'm not saying that anything negates the rights of the Palestinians. But you are, in point of fact, negating the rights of Jewish "Palestinians".

You are doing it by claiming that Israel was illegally created. You are claiming that the thing which was illegal was "giving people the boot". Since people "got the boot" in other countries which were created during the same time frame, through the same existing international law, and through mostly the same legal instruments -- your claim of illegality extends to many other countries, including Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

So what should we do with all these illegal nations?

There are many legal issues with the creation of Israel. Giving people the boot is only one of them.

 

[Shusha]

Not so. I have upheld those rights.

Well, all but the rather important one about self-determination. Which is an inherent, inalienable human right, remember?

 

[Shusha]

Good question, but it is not the Palestinian's job to solve the problems of others. They have enough problems of their own.

True. But it is your job. You, having made this moral and legal determination that we have a whole pile of illegal countries in the ME and elsewhere in the world, are obligated to apply that determination universally, else expose yourself as a hypocrite. So, should we expand BDS to encompass ALL the illegal countries which arose out of the Mandate period post WWI? And elsewhere?

 

[Shusha]

There are many legal issues with the creation of Israel. Giving people the boot is only one of them.

Well, then, feel free to elaborate, as you failed to do in your original post.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Good question, but it is not the Palestinian's job to solve the problems of others. They have enough problems of their own.

True. But it is your job. You, having made this moral and legal determination that we have a whole pile of illegal countries in the ME and elsewhere in the world, are obligated to apply that determination universally, else expose yourself as a hypocrite. So, should we expand BDS to encompass ALL the illegal countries which arose out of the Mandate period post WWI? And elsewhere?

BDS was called by the Palestinians. If another people call for a boycott that would be considered. Is there anyone else calling for a boycott?