STAND YOUR GROUND, conflicts?

[Peach]

It's questions such as that which are continually asked but never answered.

The Special Prosecutor will by her decision, or the Grand Jury, if it goes forward.

OK it moves forward but unless their is some evidence that has not been released I don't see a conviction. Man hours time and money wasted on a media racially charged shooting which appears to have been a case for self defense

Media charged, yes, racial motivation, maybe. Casey Anthony got the same overblown media attention, and walked.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM.

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

How does a drunk stranger open your hotel door at 2:00am ?

 

[strollingbones]

the one time i elected to stand my ground.....i would have killed an unarmed man....but at that point it was about the safety of myself and my child....i decided when i would kill and i stuck to it....i am thankful the bedroom door never opened. would i have been wrong to kill an unarmed man? nc says i am not.

Forceful entry ?

DRT = Dead Right There.

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM. I heard it and saw the light and had the man by the throat and against the far hall wall before he was able to enter the room.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four I determined he was drunk, had been given the electronic key to our room by mistake and had no intent to do harm to my family. The poor guy was scared to death and kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, don't hurt me".

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

i always use the chain and lock the sliders....we had something like that happen in ski country....the drunk climbed in thru the balcony....he couldnt remember exactly which balcony was his...the condo contained a man, his wife and their wee ones...the man inside wakes up...and gives chase...over the balcony and out....unfortunately the man inside..was nekkid...the police took a few hours to sort the whole thing out..the drunk pleaded for forgiveness and the nekkid dude was given pants and a coat...till his wife got there..

but when i am on vacation....i always relax a wee bit due to young ones and drunks

 

[strollingbones]

the one time i elected to stand my ground.....i would have killed an unarmed man....but at that point it was about the safety of myself and my child....i decided when i would kill and i stuck to it....i am thankful the bedroom door never opened. would i have been wrong to kill an unarmed man? nc says i am not.

Forceful entry ?

DRT = Dead Right There.

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM. I heard it and saw the light and had the man by the throat and against the far hall wall before he was able to enter the room.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four I determined he was drunk, had been given the electronic key to our room by mistake and had no intent to do harm to my family. The poor guy was scared to death and kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, don't hurt me".

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

i think at first you do...but once he is saying he is sorry and you realize he is drunk.....

then no

but there are a few minutes of shades of grey there

 

[Wry Catcher]

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM.

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

How does a drunk stranger open your hotel door at 2:00am ?

The front desk gave him our room by mistake. After I walked the man down to the lobby and told the desk clerk what happened he about shit his pants. He said he would comp our room but when we got home he hadn't. I guess if he did the fact of his fuck up would have been known by the management and he would have been fired.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Forceful entry ?

DRT = Dead Right There.

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM. I heard it and saw the light and had the man by the throat and against the far hall wall before he was able to enter the room.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four I determined he was drunk, had been given the electronic key to our room by mistake and had no intent to do harm to my family. The poor guy was scared to death and kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, don't hurt me".

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

i always use the chain and lock the sliders....we had something like that happen in ski country....the drunk climbed in thru the balcony....he couldnt remember exactly which balcony was his...the condo contained a man, his wife and their wee ones...the man inside wakes up...and gives chase...over the balcony and out....unfortunately the man inside..was nekkid...the police took a few hours to sort the whole thing out..the drunk pleaded for forgiveness and the nekkid dude was given pants and a coat...till his wife got there..

but when i am on vacation....i always relax a wee bit due to young ones and drunks

We usually set the metal lock too, that night the kids had been in and out of the hot tub and we had neglected to do so as we needed to shower them before bed and got caught up in the usual before bed activity.

I never sleep naked in a hotel or motel. And, I always have shoes on the ready for a fast get out if necessary.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM.

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

How does a drunk stranger open your hotel door at 2:00am ?

The front desk gave him our room by mistake. After I walked the man down to the lobby and told the desk clerk what happened he about shit his pants. He said he would comp our room but when we got home he hadn't. I guess if he did the fact of his fuck up would have been known by the management and he would have been fired.

You should have reported what happened to Corp. What if he does that again and someone gets hurt or worse killed?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

the one time i elected to stand my ground.....i would have killed an unarmed man....but at that point it was about the safety of myself and my child....i decided when i would kill and i stuck to it....i am thankful the bedroom door never opened. would i have been wrong to kill an unarmed man? nc says i am not.

Forceful entry ?

DRT = Dead Right There.

Years ago my wife, two sons and me were in a motel room when the door opened at 2:00 AM. I heard it and saw the light and had the man by the throat and against the far hall wall before he was able to enter the room.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four I determined he was drunk, had been given the electronic key to our room by mistake and had no intent to do harm to my family. The poor guy was scared to death and kept saying, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, don't hurt me".

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

You used the necessary amount of force to handle the situation, If you used deadly force you would have to show you were threaten or signs of bodily damage on you Bruises, Bleeding cuts and such.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

In this case, a Judge made the decision, and in Zimmerman's case the Sanford police so "ruled". What is the difference?

Several witnesses driving on State Street stopped because of the fighting in the street. Two witnesses told police the fight was already over when the shooting started. In a statement nearly four hours into questioning by police, Seay said he was just trying to scare his assailants, Soud noted in an April 2011 hearing.

The bolded is likely why. If the fight (threat) was over, the SYG doctrine does not apply.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four…

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

No. per the example above, since you had neutralized the threat, the doctrine was no longer in effect.

 

[Peach]

In this case, a Judge made the decision, and in Zimmerman's case the Sanford police so "ruled". What is the difference?

Several witnesses driving on State Street stopped because of the fighting in the street. Two witnesses told police the fight was already over when the shooting started. In a statement nearly four hours into questioning by police, Seay said he was just trying to scare his assailants, Soud noted in an April 2011 hearing.

The bolded is likely why. If the fight (threat) was over, the SYG doctrine does not apply.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four…

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

No. per the example above, since you had neutralized the threat, the doctrine was no longer in effect.

The Judge is QUOTED as saying it was RAZOR-CLOSE; so from SYG to 2nd degree murder is a big leap.........................

 

[bigrebnc1775]

In this case, a Judge made the decision, and in Zimmerman's case the Sanford police so "ruled". What is the difference?

Several witnesses driving on State Street stopped because of the fighting in the street. Two witnesses told police the fight was already over when the shooting started. In a statement nearly four hours into questioning by police, Seay said he was just trying to scare his assailants, Soud noted in an April 2011 hearing.

The bolded is likely why. If the fight (threat) was over, the SYG doctrine does not apply.

Once I had him controlled in a figure four…

The question: Did I have the right to shoot and kill this man under the stand your ground concept?

No. per the example above, since you had neutralized the threat, the doctrine was no longer in effect.

in another 911 audio video the yelling stop after the gun shot. not before but after.

 

[Mr. Jones]

The law is designed to help citizens protect themselves when they are VICTIMS of an unprovoked attack. It is not intended to protect a person if they are the ones pursuing a confrontation and being the aggressor.
Based on the evidence and witnesses, Zimmerman was the aggressor, as he pursued and sought out a confrontation with the teenager.
The Police and or States Attorney dropped the ball on this one, and should charge Zimmerman.
Stand your ground is not intended to protect the instigator, even if the instigator is getting his ass kicked due to his own provocation of another individual.
What the hell is so hard about this? If you start shit with someone, they have the right to defend themselves against YOUR attack, and vice versa.
I think the law should be looked at to shore up whatever vagueness there might be in its wording, but Zimmerman, according to the facts and witnesses was the aggressor in this incident.
I only wish one of the neighbors would have come to the kids aid and
using the law properly, in defense of the kid, righteously and lawfully blown Zimmerman away.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Judge is QUOTED as saying it was RAZOR-CLOSE; so from SYG to 2nd degree murder is a big leap.........................

Not really sure what you’re getting at here…

But the judge’s ruling in the Seay case would be reasonable and appropriate if he found the witness’ statement that the fight was over and the defendant used deadly force subsequent to that reasonable.

In the Zimmerman/Martin case, no similar evidence exists as sworn testimony, SYG compelled the Sanford police to release Zimmerman uncharged.

 

[Peach]

The Judge is QUOTED as saying it was RAZOR-CLOSE; so from SYG to 2nd degree murder is a big leap.........................

Not really sure what you’re getting at here…

But the judge’s ruling in the Seay case would be reasonable and appropriate if he found the witness’ statement that the fight was over and the defendant used deadly force subsequent to that reasonable.

In the Zimmerman/Martin case, no similar evidence exists as sworn testimony, SYG compelled the Sanford police to release Zimmerman uncharged.

The decision is on appeal. My point was that in one case law enforcement decided, in the other it was brought before the Court.

 

[Peach]

The Judge is QUOTED as saying it was RAZOR-CLOSE; so from SYG to 2nd degree murder is a big leap.........................

Not really sure what you’re getting at here…

But the judge’s ruling in the Seay case would be reasonable and appropriate if he found the witness’ statement that the fight was over and the defendant used deadly force subsequent to that reasonable.

In the Zimmerman/Martin case, no similar evidence exists as sworn testimony, SYG compelled the Sanford police to release Zimmerman uncharged.

The decision is on appeal. My point was that in one case law enforcement decided, in the other it was brought before the Court.

Here ya go, NOTE QUESTION MARK.

 

[strollingbones]

it has been 3 weeks...i think the window of finding valid evidence has closed...i think the debate on stand your ground will fade quickly...unfortunately

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The law is designed to help citizens protect themselves when they are VICTIMS of an unprovoked attack. It is not intended to protect a person if they are the ones pursuing a confrontation and being the aggressor.
Based on the evidence and witnesses, Zimmerman was the aggressor, as he pursued and sought out a confrontation with the teenager.
The Police and or States Attorney dropped the ball on this one, and should charge Zimmerman.
Stand your ground is not intended to protect the instigator, even if the instigator is getting his ass kicked due to his own provocation of another individual.
What the hell is so hard about this? If you start shit with someone, they have the right to defend themselves against YOUR attack, and vice versa.
I think the law should be looked at to shore up whatever vagueness there might be in its wording, but Zimmerman, according to the facts and witnesses was the aggressor in this incident.
I only wish one of the neighbors would have come to the kids aid and
using the law properly, in defense of the kid, righteously and lawfully blown Zimmerman away.

Trayvon ran away circled back an attacked Zimmerman clear cut case of Zimmerman defending himself.

 

[Si modo]

A fine line keeps Jacksonville teen jailed despite 'Stand Your Ground' law | jacksonville.com

In this case, a Judge made the decision, and in Zimmerman's case the Sanford police so "ruled". What is the difference?

I don't see any conflict. The shooter was a teen. Teens can't have carry permits for guns. So, he wasn't participating in a legal activity when he killed. (Section (3) of the code).

Also, there were witnesses who made statements that his attackers were fleeing the scene when the teen shot one of them. At the time of the fatal shot, there is no reason to presume the shooter was in fear when his attackers are fleeing.

However, as the report says, there may be a question about whether the deceased was actually fleeing at the time he was shot, based on the bullet path.

Regardless, as the shooter was already participating in an unlawful activity - carrying a gun for which he had no permit - he was arrested and receives no immunity under the stand your ground law.

It's a no brainer, if one reads the actual code, that is.

 

[Mr. Jones]

The law is designed to help citizens protect themselves when they are VICTIMS of an unprovoked attack. It is not intended to protect a person if they are the ones pursuing a confrontation and being the aggressor.
Based on the evidence and witnesses, Zimmerman was the aggressor, as he pursued and sought out a confrontation with the teenager.
The Police and or States Attorney dropped the ball on this one, and should charge Zimmerman.
Stand your ground is not intended to protect the instigator, even if the instigator is getting his ass kicked due to his own provocation of another individual.
What the hell is so hard about this? If you start shit with someone, they have the right to defend themselves against YOUR attack, and vice versa.
I think the law should be looked at to shore up whatever vagueness there might be in its wording, but Zimmerman, according to the facts and witnesses was the aggressor in this incident.
I only wish one of the neighbors would have come to the kids aid and
using the law properly, in defense of the kid, righteously and lawfully blown Zimmerman away.

Trayvon ran away circled back an attacked Zimmerman clear cut case of Zimmerman defending himself.

I seemed to have missed this account, who says this? Zimmerman, or witnesses? If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The law is designed to help citizens protect themselves when they are VICTIMS of an unprovoked attack. It is not intended to protect a person if they are the ones pursuing a confrontation and being the aggressor.
Based on the evidence and witnesses, Zimmerman was the aggressor, as he pursued and sought out a confrontation with the teenager.
The Police and or States Attorney dropped the ball on this one, and should charge Zimmerman.
Stand your ground is not intended to protect the instigator, even if the instigator is getting his ass kicked due to his own provocation of another individual.
What the hell is so hard about this? If you start shit with someone, they have the right to defend themselves against YOUR attack, and vice versa.
I think the law should be looked at to shore up whatever vagueness there might be in its wording, but Zimmerman, according to the facts and witnesses was the aggressor in this incident.
I only wish one of the neighbors would have come to the kids aid and
using the law properly, in defense of the kid, righteously and lawfully blown Zimmerman away.

Trayvon ran away circled back an attacked Zimmerman clear cut case of Zimmerman defending himself.

I seemed to have missed this account, who says this? Zimmerman, or witnesses? If you could provide a link I'd appreciate it.

Here’s an estimate of Trayvon’s route back to Brandy Green’s townhouse with 911 call times included

Here’s an estimate of Zimmerman’s route to the main road with 911 call times included

A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
0:15 – The best address I can give you is the clubhouse. [A]
0:45 – He’s just staring at the houses. Now he’s staring at me.
1:00 – He’s coming towards me.
1:20 – He’s coming to check me out.
2:08 – Shit, he’s running.
2:14 – Sound of truck door being closed. [C]
2:20 – He’s heading towards the back entrance. [referring to E]
2:25 – Are you following him? Yep.
2:45 – He ran… Zimmerman stops and completes the 911 call. [E]
4:05 – Call ends.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgR7gCxXQYg&feature=player_embedded]ACTUAL UNCUT AUDIO!!! George Zimmerman's Trayvon Martin 911 - YouTube[/ame]
A – The Clubhouse for Retreat at Twin Lakes.
B – Community mailboxes.
C – Where George Zimmerman parked his truck.
D – Brandy Green’s Townhouse, where Trayvon was staying.
E – Zimmerman stopped and completed his 911 call for approximately eighty seconds.
F – The fight and shooting took place in this area.
G – Eyewitness “John’s” townhouse.
If you have a brain you can figure it out.