Something I'm curious to know about the Charlottesville, VA protesters and counter-protesters

[CarlinAnnArbor]

The issue isn't EVERY Republican feels this way but that there are a substantial number of racists who are drawn to the party

Now Republicans can't control who votes for them, but they can make an effort to be clear that these groups are not welcome or condoned

Conveniently forgetting the groups that support the Democrat Party and Obama in particular

 

[MikeK]

Their mentality can't comprehend that.. The Governmental Gods could never do such things to hurt the American people.

Unfortunately your cynical sarcasm is right on the money.

 

[flacaltenn]

Of course that's the case. But like any "good crisis" it will be hijacked for political interpretation. The talking points were already out there by noon. To conflate EVERY Repub, Trump Supporter or Trump himself and every American that OPPOSES purging historical monuments and symbols ----- as being Nazis, White Supremacists or "alt-right"..

It's GOOD that's you're NOT doing that. But be aware that a lot of folks are using this anarchy and death for political advantage by EXAGGERATING the support for radical right. And including rational citizens that don't want to live in a country that purges history....

All this ----- over a statue... When the nation is already in chaos and danger. WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes? I think I know the answer to that....

WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes?

I think people exaggerate the verity of pretty much anything for a variety of reasons, mostly these: naivete, intellectual sloth, disingenuousness or willful dissimulation. Legitimate cases do not need appeals to extremes.

purging historical monuments and symbols

I won't shrink from thinking that that "preserving history" argument for maintaining monuments to the icons and iconography of the Confederacy is a crock of sh*t. Yesterday, I here shared my thoughts to that effect.

I disagree. There are already people sanitizing the Holocaust and some of the survivors of the Holocaust are still alive. This purge has to be done but done correctly. The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy. We shouldn't look at this with 2017 eyes but with 2057 eyes. Point out that the confederacy was glorified and it's generals considered hero's until now at which time there was a new purge to put such things in their proper place. This is part of the evolution of this country and will be looked upon much like we now look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Civil war itself. It's important and yesterdays protest will become part of it's fabric much as stories like Mississippi Burning and the numerous civil rights marches. We need to keep it even if we don't like it, lets just put stuff like this in proper venues.

The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy.

I'm fine with that for it's consistent with presenting history. It's bit more graphically melodramatic than what one typically comes by when visiting historic battlefields and the like, but that's okay. If someone were to, say, take all the statues of Jefferson Davis, R. E. Lee, et al and put them in myriad battlefields and so on like set pieces on a chessboard, I have no problem with that.

The tack you've suggested doesn't put those luminaries in places of honor, which is what I find objectionable. Rather, your suggestion puts them in fitting places and in perspective, as you aptly note. My objection is the regaling of Confederates and the Confederacy's ideals by ensconcing them and the memory of them and what they stood for in city parks, bridges, state-owned buildings and so on.

So because the GOVT owns the land they stand on -- they are allowed to censor history?

In Berlin -- if you take a tour bus -- it whizzes right by the Nazi monuments. Including Hitler's "non bunker" home -- without a comment or announcement. What does that accomplish? Several times there's been efforts to RAZE his home. No discussion of Nazi history and Hitler means ignoring the past.

That's not healthy. What you gonna do about Washington and Lee University? Shutter it? Force a name change? Why? Dig him up and move him to an undisclosed location? That's just juvenile and for folks who can't just accept the stories and history..

So because the GOVT owns the land they stand on -- they are allowed to censor history?

History is neither altered nor censored by dint of a statute not appearing on government property.

Of course it is when the reason that monument is removed is because people are offended by History of the region or town. Visitors are reminded of history everytime they see it. They can draw their OWN conclusions. Don't need the government to purge it for them..

Govt of ALL the entities involved should recognize the heritage of their place and preserve it. It's part of the wealth of heritage they bear.

 

[flacaltenn]

All this ----- over a statue...

Usually I agree with you. This isn't one of them. Some say the same about our AMERICAN flag.

Sometimes our symbols are worth fighting for. If the COMMUNISTS want to protest, they have that right. When they instigate a fight, they cross that line. Unfortunately, it's a proven tactic they won't give up.

Oh don't get me wrong. It's WORTH the fight. Because essentially the Govt shouldn't be stripping their own realm of its heritage and history. But I'm as pissed at the Nazis and Klan and the AntiFa and BLM --- as ANYONE else. Making this a clash of morons -- instead of reasoned discussion. And personally I believe the leftists who are organizing this ISIS like destruction of Heritage they dont like would LOSE the reasoned argument. So they have to INCITE these confrontations to make it look like ONLY LOSERS CARE...

You and I know -- that ain't the case..

 

[MikeK]

The matter of statuary depicting luminaries of the Confederate States of America is one whereby the United States of America and organs of the state honor the leaders of a nation it defeated. Remember, the members of the CSA seceded from the United States of America and formed a nation of their own.

True. But prior to that secession those states and everything about them was a formal, official, and affirmable part and member of the United States of America. That fact cannot be dissolved by removing its representative imagery.

Go to London and see if you can find in abundance comparable (absolutely or proportionately) honor given by the British government and its state and local counterparts to Nazi Germany's luminaries as is in the U.S. given to CSA leaders.

Germany's luminaries were never full and natural components of the British nation.

In the U.S., does one find abundant memorials to Japanese WWII luminaries?

Why would there be?

Are the original 13 states rife with honoraria to British Revolutionary War figures? No is the answer to both questions.

And rightfully so. Because Revolutionary War figures who were British were in no way representative of the Revolution and its intended purpose but were in fact diametrically opposed to that purpose. So what reason would there be to perpetuate their memory?

No discussion of Nazi history and Hitler means ignoring the past.

History does not in order to be discussed, thus not ignored, need a statue or other memorial. Of what historical topic/matter must one see a statue or bridge name or building name to know the event/person once existed and what its/their significance was and is?

Because one segment of a population chooses to not honor or remember a given historical figure does not cancel the wishes of another substantial segment of the same population. Every American citizen with genetic roots in the pre-Civil War American South is not a slave descendant and therefore is not burdened by the same antipathies as is those who are. Further, those American citizens who harbor certain positive feelings toward the general ethos of the pre-Civil War American South are as free to feel that way as are those who harbor opposite feelings. Simply stated, it may be said there was much more to life in the old South than slavery and its attendant cruelties.

I'm not suggesting that we remove from history texts all mention of the Confederacy. I'm simply saying we don't need statues of its luminaries and sponsors in places of abstract prominence.

While I am a dyed-in-the-wool yankee, born and bred in Brooklyn, New York, I know of no good reason why a statue of Robert E. Lee should be removed from the historical landscape of America.

Someone else might, but I don't.

 

[Marianne]

I am curious to know what the numerical representation was among the "Unite the Right" protesters and the counter-protesters who decry their ideals and demands.

From where I sit, it'd certainly be small consolation in the aftermath of such of the calamity to learn that more Americans courageously took upon themselves the burden of literally standing and being counted as amongst those who oppose white nationalism than felt obliged to advance white supremacy's odious notions.

Of course that's the case. But like any "good crisis" it will be hijacked for political interpretation. The talking points were already out there by noon. To conflate EVERY Repub, Trump Supporter or Trump himself and every American that OPPOSES purging historical monuments and symbols ----- as being Nazis, White Supremacists or "alt-right"..

It's GOOD that's you're NOT doing that. But be aware that a lot of folks are using this anarchy and death for political advantage by EXAGGERATING the support for radical right. And including rational citizens that don't want to live in a country that purges history....

All this ----- over a statue... When the nation is already in chaos and danger. WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes? I think I know the answer to that....

WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes?

I think people exaggerate the verity of pretty much anything for a variety of reasons, mostly these: naivete, intellectual sloth, disingenuousness or willful dissimulation. Legitimate cases do not need appeals to extremes.

purging historical monuments and symbols

I won't shrink from thinking that that "preserving history" argument for maintaining monuments to the icons and iconography of the Confederacy is a crock of sh*t. Yesterday, I here shared my thoughts to that effect.

I disagree. There are already people sanitizing the Holocaust and some of the survivors of the Holocaust are still alive. This purge has to be done but done correctly. The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy. We shouldn't look at this with 2017 eyes but with 2057 eyes. Point out that the confederacy was glorified and it's generals considered hero's until now at which time there was a new purge to put such things in their proper place. This is part of the evolution of this country and will be looked upon much like we now look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Civil war itself. It's important and yesterdays protest will become part of it's fabric much as stories like Mississippi Burning and the numerous civil rights marches. We need to keep it even if we don't like it, lets just put stuff like this in proper venues.

Nope.. Not in Museums. It's a bad precedent that will be abused. The slippery slope is too dangerous to allow raging PARTISANS to control.. Best controlled by the people and communities.

How do you put THIS --- into a Museum???

That's the College of Washington and Lee. Still a valued school. Too much chance for witchhunts and Inquisitions by law and power of the State.

Just have the tolerance and the maturity to know the stories and accept them..

Oh look it's Calhoun College at Yale University ... I mean the former Calhoun College at Yale University. This is how you handle it.

Yale to change Calhoun College’s name to honor Grace Murray Hopper

John C. Calhoun - Wikipedia

 

[Marianne]

I am curious to know what the numerical representation was among the "Unite the Right" protesters and the counter-protesters who decry their ideals and demands.

From where I sit, it'd certainly be small consolation in the aftermath of such of the calamity to learn that more Americans courageously took upon themselves the burden of literally standing and being counted as amongst those who oppose white nationalism than felt obliged to advance white supremacy's odious notions.

Of course that's the case. But like any "good crisis" it will be hijacked for political interpretation. The talking points were already out there by noon. To conflate EVERY Repub, Trump Supporter or Trump himself and every American that OPPOSES purging historical monuments and symbols ----- as being Nazis, White Supremacists or "alt-right"..

It's GOOD that's you're NOT doing that. But be aware that a lot of folks are using this anarchy and death for political advantage by EXAGGERATING the support for radical right. And including rational citizens that don't want to live in a country that purges history....

All this ----- over a statue... When the nation is already in chaos and danger. WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes? I think I know the answer to that....

WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes?

I think people exaggerate the verity of pretty much anything for a variety of reasons, mostly these: naivete, intellectual sloth, disingenuousness or willful dissimulation. Legitimate cases do not need appeals to extremes.

purging historical monuments and symbols

I won't shrink from thinking that that "preserving history" argument for maintaining monuments to the icons and iconography of the Confederacy is a crock of sh*t. Yesterday, I here shared my thoughts to that effect.

I disagree. There are already people sanitizing the Holocaust and some of the survivors of the Holocaust are still alive. This purge has to be done but done correctly. The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy. We shouldn't look at this with 2017 eyes but with 2057 eyes. Point out that the confederacy was glorified and it's generals considered hero's until now at which time there was a new purge to put such things in their proper place. This is part of the evolution of this country and will be looked upon much like we now look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Civil war itself. It's important and yesterdays protest will become part of it's fabric much as stories like Mississippi Burning and the numerous civil rights marches. We need to keep it even if we don't like it, lets just put stuff like this in proper venues.

The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy.

I'm fine with that for it's consistent with presenting history. It's bit more graphically melodramatic than what one typically comes by when visiting historic battlefields and the like, but that's okay. If someone were to, say, take all the statues of Jefferson Davis, R. E. Lee, et al and put them in myriad battlefields and so on like set pieces on a chessboard, I have no problem with that.

The tack you've suggested doesn't put those luminaries in places of honor, which is what I find objectionable. Rather, your suggestion puts them in fitting places and in perspective, as you aptly note. My objection is the regaling of Confederates and the Confederacy's ideals by ensconcing them and the memory of them and what they stood for in city parks, bridges, state-owned buildings and so on.

At Gettysburg there are many monuments paying homage to the fallen. Lee is there also and I never took it as offensive because the monument was in proper context. The thing that strikes you the most is the size of the battle field and the knowledge that 150 years ago this huge expanse was covered in bodies and blood. When put in these places how they are seen is up to us. Yes there will always be people who idolize the confederacy. from what you've seen yesterday and I've heard over the years on message boards that's a long way off from changing. The best thing to do is continue to direct properly the future generations on how to view these images and the war and remind people how truly awful slavery was. It's taken 150+ years just to get this far so it's going to take longer still to get it to an acceptable standard because the Confederate attitude is engraved on the South.

True Story:My sisters ex husbands family was from the south. She's down there on vacation at a family picnic when one of her husbands family members regales her with the story of how during Sherman's March they had to hide the family silver by burying it. This was no doubt done simply because she's a Yankee and the're still pissed at Yankee's My sisters listening to this and thinking how people were enslaved,beaten,killed and endured horrible conditions and these idiots were still going on about some fucking 150 year old silver flatware? I'm surprised my sister held her tongue; but this is how ingrained this BS is in the south. Southerners still hate Yankee's not because of any ancestral connection to the Civil War but simply from being raised Southern. I'll bet a good portion of Southerns who hate Yankee's didn't even have family in this country until the late 1800's and early 1900's well after the war ended and yet they spout their crap for no other reason than because it's how they were raised to think. We need to change this thinking while keeping our history. Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

 

[Tresha91203]

If you think it was really all over just a statue your wrong:
Meet the man in the middle of the 'Unite the Right' rally

What a piece of filth. He should be arrested and charged with inciting to riot.

That movement is antithetical to everything that this nation stands for. Every time they show their idiocy, there should be people showing by their presence that this is not what America stands for.

What was an Indiana resident doing protesting in VA over a VA issue? Why can't the people of VA handle their own monuments as they see fit without outsider busybodies causing a ruckus? Those are my most pressing questions.

 

[flacaltenn]

I am curious to know what the numerical representation was among the "Unite the Right" protesters and the counter-protesters who decry their ideals and demands.

From where I sit, it'd certainly be small consolation in the aftermath of such of the calamity to learn that more Americans courageously took upon themselves the burden of literally standing and being counted as amongst those who oppose white nationalism than felt obliged to advance white supremacy's odious notions.

Of course that's the case. But like any "good crisis" it will be hijacked for political interpretation. The talking points were already out there by noon. To conflate EVERY Repub, Trump Supporter or Trump himself and every American that OPPOSES purging historical monuments and symbols ----- as being Nazis, White Supremacists or "alt-right"..

It's GOOD that's you're NOT doing that. But be aware that a lot of folks are using this anarchy and death for political advantage by EXAGGERATING the support for radical right. And including rational citizens that don't want to live in a country that purges history....

All this ----- over a statue... When the nation is already in chaos and danger. WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes? I think I know the answer to that....

WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes?

I think people exaggerate the verity of pretty much anything for a variety of reasons, mostly these: naivete, intellectual sloth, disingenuousness or willful dissimulation. Legitimate cases do not need appeals to extremes.

purging historical monuments and symbols

I won't shrink from thinking that that "preserving history" argument for maintaining monuments to the icons and iconography of the Confederacy is a crock of sh*t. Yesterday, I here shared my thoughts to that effect.

I disagree. There are already people sanitizing the Holocaust and some of the survivors of the Holocaust are still alive. This purge has to be done but done correctly. The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy. We shouldn't look at this with 2017 eyes but with 2057 eyes. Point out that the confederacy was glorified and it's generals considered hero's until now at which time there was a new purge to put such things in their proper place. This is part of the evolution of this country and will be looked upon much like we now look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Civil war itself. It's important and yesterdays protest will become part of it's fabric much as stories like Mississippi Burning and the numerous civil rights marches. We need to keep it even if we don't like it, lets just put stuff like this in proper venues.

Nope.. Not in Museums. It's a bad precedent that will be abused. The slippery slope is too dangerous to allow raging PARTISANS to control.. Best controlled by the people and communities.

How do you put THIS --- into a Museum???

That's the College of Washington and Lee. Still a valued school. Too much chance for witchhunts and Inquisitions by law and power of the State.

Just have the tolerance and the maturity to know the stories and accept them..

Oh look it's Calhoun College at Yale University ... I mean the former Calhoun College at Yale University. This is how you handle it.

Yale to change Calhoun College’s name to honor Grace Murray Hopper

John C. Calhoun - Wikipedia

Good for them. He hasn't contributed anything in over 150 years. Screw him.

 

[JimBowie1958]

True Story:My sisters ex husbands family was from the south. She's down there on vacation at a family picnic when one of her husbands family members regales her with the story of how during Sherman's March they had to hide the family silver by burying it. This was no doubt done simply because she's a Yankee and the're still pissed at Yankee's My sisters listening to this and thinking how people were enslaved,beaten,killed and endured horrible conditions and these idiots were still going on about some fucking 150 year old silver flatware? I'm surprised my sister held her tongue; but this is how ingrained this BS is in the south. Southerners still hate Yankee's not because of any ancestral connection to the Civil War but simply from being raised Southern. I'll bet a good portion of Southerns who hate Yankee's didn't even have family in this country until the late 1800's and early 1900's well after the war ended and yet they spout their crap for no other reason than because it's how they were raised to think. We need to change this thinking while keeping our history. Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

This is because when an invading army conducts scorched Earth tactics on a people they tend to not forget it, dear.

And my ancestors fought for the North to free the slaves and were from Indiana. They later migrated down to Texas.

And I still had no idea that 'damyankee' was two separate words until the third grade, I think it was.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

I think a really good start would be to just leave these people and their statues alone. Issues like this are best left for time to deal with. What valid purpose will be served by removing these statues and pissing off a lot of inveterate Southerners?

 

[JimBowie1958]

[...]

Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

I think a really good start would be to just leave these people and their statues alone. Issues like this are best left for time to deal with. What valid purpose will be served by removing these statues and pissing off a lot of inveterate Southerners?

The acrimony, violence and racial division IS WHAT THE BLM AND RACIST LEFT WANTS!

 

[EverCurious]

We honor the southern soldiers because at that time a majority of them fought to defend their homes or support their families - not for slavery. Yes, there were some who fought for slavery, not denying that, but those were mostly bought and paid for by the wealthy slave owners, or forced by politicians.

You lefties would leap to defend the criminals who "have no choice" yet you condemn the "criminals" of the past who were legitimately trying to feed their families, protect their property, save their wife and kids. You seem unable to see the reality the southern soldiers faced - there was no guarantee for them that the north wouldn't string them up as traitors, there was no promise of proper treatment upon capture, there was no security of "humane treatment" These southern soldiers fought for their lives, they believed they fought for their famlies lives, they fought bravely and with/for southern honor - regardless of if you agree with the "political" reasons for the war, these soldiers as a whole didn't fight for that. They should be seen more akin to rebellious children led astray, rather than "enemies."

Back then, after the war was won by the north, a general (damned if I can recall his name) made a speech, he plead with his northern soldiers to show lenience he argued that the war was won, the path was laid in stone, and the nation should unite and move past the hostilities. That the southern soldiers were not enemies; they were brothers, sisters, cousins, mothers and fathers, they were American's and "we ought lay aside our hostilities as by God this aweful war is over." I am amazed that the folks "of that time" were able to lay aside their hostilities and yet modern lefties cannot even function to see a confederate flag without pissing themselves and getting "offended" by a war, a social ideal, that /lost/ and was /squashed/ in this nation 150 years ago. You lefties are absolutely pathetic...

 

[MindWars]

Of course that's the case. But like any "good crisis" it will be hijacked for political interpretation. The talking points were already out there by noon. To conflate EVERY Repub, Trump Supporter or Trump himself and every American that OPPOSES purging historical monuments and symbols ----- as being Nazis, White Supremacists or "alt-right"..

It's GOOD that's you're NOT doing that. But be aware that a lot of folks are using this anarchy and death for political advantage by EXAGGERATING the support for radical right. And including rational citizens that don't want to live in a country that purges history....

All this ----- over a statue... When the nation is already in chaos and danger. WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes? I think I know the answer to that....

WHY do you think the support is PURPOSELY being exaggerated to ridiculous extremes?

I think people exaggerate the verity of pretty much anything for a variety of reasons, mostly these: naivete, intellectual sloth, disingenuousness or willful dissimulation. Legitimate cases do not need appeals to extremes.

purging historical monuments and symbols

I won't shrink from thinking that that "preserving history" argument for maintaining monuments to the icons and iconography of the Confederacy is a crock of sh*t. Yesterday, I here shared my thoughts to that effect.

I disagree. There are already people sanitizing the Holocaust and some of the survivors of the Holocaust are still alive. This purge has to be done but done correctly. The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy. We shouldn't look at this with 2017 eyes but with 2057 eyes. Point out that the confederacy was glorified and it's generals considered hero's until now at which time there was a new purge to put such things in their proper place. This is part of the evolution of this country and will be looked upon much like we now look at the Civil Rights Movement and the Civil war itself. It's important and yesterdays protest will become part of it's fabric much as stories like Mississippi Burning and the numerous civil rights marches. We need to keep it even if we don't like it, lets just put stuff like this in proper venues.

The statues need to be removed and either place on battle sites or place in Museums for future generations to see with plaques made up putting the monument into a proper perspective that reflects todays values while keeping it's historical accuracy.

I'm fine with that for it's consistent with presenting history. It's bit more graphically melodramatic than what one typically comes by when visiting historic battlefields and the like, but that's okay. If someone were to, say, take all the statues of Jefferson Davis, R. E. Lee, et al and put them in myriad battlefields and so on like set pieces on a chessboard, I have no problem with that.

The tack you've suggested doesn't put those luminaries in places of honor, which is what I find objectionable. Rather, your suggestion puts them in fitting places and in perspective, as you aptly note. My objection is the regaling of Confederates and the Confederacy's ideals by ensconcing them and the memory of them and what they stood for in city parks, bridges, state-owned buildings and so on.

So because the GOVT owns the land they stand on -- they are allowed to censor history?

In Berlin -- if you take a tour bus -- it whizzes right by the Nazi monuments. Including Hitler's "non bunker" home -- without a comment or announcement. What does that accomplish? Several times there's been efforts to RAZE his home. No discussion of Nazi history and Hitler means ignoring the past.

That's not healthy. What you gonna do about Washington and Lee University? Shutter it? Force a name change? Why? Dig him up and move him to an undisclosed location? That's just juvenile and for folks who can't just accept the stories and history..

So because the GOVT owns the land they stand on -- they are allowed to censor history?

History is neither altered nor censored by dint of a statute not appearing on government property.

Knowing our own history, or the history of our culture, is important because it helps us to know who we are while molding the future. Being familiar with past events gives us the ability not only to learn from past mistakes but also from the successes. History is a general term, which includes many specialized studies such as military history, music history and film history.

The Facts
According to Edmund Burke, “People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors.”


The Importance of Knowing History | Synonym

 

[Marianne]

True Story:My sisters ex husbands family was from the south. She's down there on vacation at a family picnic when one of her husbands family members regales her with the story of how during Sherman's March they had to hide the family silver by burying it. This was no doubt done simply because she's a Yankee and the're still pissed at Yankee's My sisters listening to this and thinking how people were enslaved,beaten,killed and endured horrible conditions and these idiots were still going on about some fucking 150 year old silver flatware? I'm surprised my sister held her tongue; but this is how ingrained this BS is in the south. Southerners still hate Yankee's not because of any ancestral connection to the Civil War but simply from being raised Southern. I'll bet a good portion of Southerns who hate Yankee's didn't even have family in this country until the late 1800's and early 1900's well after the war ended and yet they spout their crap for no other reason than because it's how they were raised to think. We need to change this thinking while keeping our history. Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

This is because when an invading army conducts scorched Earth tactics on a people they tend to not forget it, dear.

And my ancestors fought for the North to free the slaves and were from Indiana. They later migrated down to Texas.

And I still had no idea that 'damyankee' was two separate words until the third grade, I think it was.

Scorched earth tactics = Karma is a bitch. Compared to the centuries of enslavement and torture on fellow human beings in order to become greedily wealthy,I have no sympathy for the victims of Sherman's march. Burning raping a pillaging is no better than the torture, forced labor,selling off of ones family and rape going on for centuries at the hand of slave masters. Maybe the south should remember when you do centuries of damage like that the equivalent of scorched earth tactic's, the black community tend not to forget also. They sure as hell don't want to see statues idolizing the idiots who tried to keep them enslaved. Would you? Yes you can argue that's not all the war was about and you'd be correct, but put yourself in their shoes. To the black community that's what these statues represent. Lets put these images of the past in proper context and move on. If private institutions want to continue or even buy these images and display them than that's their prerogative. Yale chose not to because it impacted their bottom line. These images should not be displayed on public land as hero's. They should be displayed on public land to teach about the evils of slavery and to keep alive American history for future generations.

BTW I'm sure that my sister's ex's family dug up the family silverware as soon as Sherman left. Sadly the ex in-laws probably have no Idea how pathetically stupid they sound in their century old complaint.

 

[flacaltenn]

True Story:My sisters ex husbands family was from the south. She's down there on vacation at a family picnic when one of her husbands family members regales her with the story of how during Sherman's March they had to hide the family silver by burying it. This was no doubt done simply because she's a Yankee and the're still pissed at Yankee's My sisters listening to this and thinking how people were enslaved,beaten,killed and endured horrible conditions and these idiots were still going on about some fucking 150 year old silver flatware? I'm surprised my sister held her tongue; but this is how ingrained this BS is in the south. Southerners still hate Yankee's not because of any ancestral connection to the Civil War but simply from being raised Southern. I'll bet a good portion of Southerns who hate Yankee's didn't even have family in this country until the late 1800's and early 1900's well after the war ended and yet they spout their crap for no other reason than because it's how they were raised to think. We need to change this thinking while keeping our history. Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

This is because when an invading army conducts scorched Earth tactics on a people they tend to not forget it, dear.

And my ancestors fought for the North to free the slaves and were from Indiana. They later migrated down to Texas.

And I still had no idea that 'damyankee' was two separate words until the third grade, I think it was.

Scorched earth tactics = Karma is a bitch. Compared to the centuries of enslavement and torture on fellow human beings in order to become greedily wealthy,I have no sympathy for the victims of Sherman's march. Burning raping a pillaging is no better than the torture, forced labor,selling off of ones family and rape going on for centuries at the hand of slave masters. Maybe the south should remember when you do centuries of damage like that the equivalent of scorched earth tactic's, the black community tend not to forget also. They sure as hell don't want to see statues idolizing the idiots who tried to keep them enslaved. Would you? Yes you can argue that's not all the war was about and you'd be correct, but put yourself in their shoes. To the black community that's what these statues represent. Lets put these images of the past in proper context and move on. If private institutions want to continue or even buy these images and display them than that's their prerogative. Yale chose not to because it impacted their bottom line. These images should not be displayed on public land as hero's. They should be displayed on public land to teach about the evils of slavery and to keep alive American history for future generations.

BTW I'm sure that my sister's ex's family dug up the family silverware as soon as Sherman left. Sadly the ex in-laws probably have no Idea how pathetically stupid they sound in their century old complaint.

When you embarrass or threaten Institutions with boycotts and demonstrations to deny their origins and heritage --- you're not "winning" a damn thing. You're just stripping them of that legacy. And then everyone forgets WHY the Civil Rights movement and Reconstruction and the Civil War happened.

This was a conflict WITHIN FAMILIES. Brothers killing brothers. Not about the North and the South. It's far more complex than that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Scorched earth tactics = Karma is a bitch.

Yep, and you need to remember that, as well, bitch.

 

[Slash]

We honor the southern soldiers because at that time a majority of them fought to defend their homes or support their families - not for slavery. Yes, there were some who fought for slavery, not denying that, but those were mostly bought and paid for by the wealthy slave owners, or forced by politicians.

You lefties would leap to defend the criminals who "have no choice" yet you condemn the "criminals" of the past who were legitimately trying to feed their families, protect their property, save their wife and kids. You seem unable to see the reality the southern soldiers faced - there was no guarantee for them that the north wouldn't string them up as traitors, there was no promise of proper treatment upon capture, there was no security of "humane treatment" These southern soldiers fought for their lives, they believed they fought for their famlies lives, they fought bravely and with/for southern honor - regardless of if you agree with the "political" reasons for the war, these soldiers as a whole didn't fight for that. They should be seen more akin to rebellious children led astray, rather than "enemies."

Back then, after the war was won by the north, a general (damned if I can recall his name) made a speech, he plead with his northern soldiers to show lenience he argued that the war was won, the path was laid in stone, and the nation should unite and move past the hostilities. That the southern soldiers were not enemies; they were brothers, sisters, cousins, mothers and fathers, they were American's and "we ought lay aside our hostilities as by God this aweful war is over." I am amazed that the folks "of that time" were able to lay aside their hostilities and yet modern lefties cannot even function to see a confederate flag without pissing themselves and getting "offended" by a war, a social ideal, that /lost/ and was /squashed/ in this nation 150 years ago. You lefties are absolutely pathetic...

Not sure what this has to do with left or right. I mean both the left and the right have decried these groups as hate groups and these actions again as terrorist actions. So it's more American and evil hate groups as the two sides here. I'll side on the American side, rather than the "we don't give our terrorist hate groups the nice safe space they deserve" side.

But back to history...

That's fine to honor the southern soldiers. I fully honor them.

But to honor the leaders, the ones who created that war based on their desire to keep the institution of slavery alive. I don't honor that group.

To honor the fire eaters (really hateful pro-slavery group) who created that confederate battle flag when troops were losing faith in what the fight was about to try and rally those troops to kill more American's... I don't honor them.



Likewise, I'd be fine honoring those who were pulled in to fight WWII on all sides. But as for Hitler and Himmler and those that stood up for the reasons to kill, I am ok NOT honoring them. You can do fine honoring those that died honorably without tattooing a swastika on your forehead and building a statue to Hitler.

You are right that leaders on both sides after the war stressed putting that in the past. General Lee and Sherman Davis both asked that the confederate iconography and flags be put away forever. KKK and dixiecrats kinda walked over their graves when they made it part of their politics though.

 

[Marianne]

True Story:My sisters ex husbands family was from the south. She's down there on vacation at a family picnic when one of her husbands family members regales her with the story of how during Sherman's March they had to hide the family silver by burying it. This was no doubt done simply because she's a Yankee and the're still pissed at Yankee's My sisters listening to this and thinking how people were enslaved,beaten,killed and endured horrible conditions and these idiots were still going on about some fucking 150 year old silver flatware? I'm surprised my sister held her tongue; but this is how ingrained this BS is in the south. Southerners still hate Yankee's not because of any ancestral connection to the Civil War but simply from being raised Southern. I'll bet a good portion of Southerns who hate Yankee's didn't even have family in this country until the late 1800's and early 1900's well after the war ended and yet they spout their crap for no other reason than because it's how they were raised to think. We need to change this thinking while keeping our history. Removing the statues and putting them in proper places is a good start.

This is because when an invading army conducts scorched Earth tactics on a people they tend to not forget it, dear.

And my ancestors fought for the North to free the slaves and were from Indiana. They later migrated down to Texas.

And I still had no idea that 'damyankee' was two separate words until the third grade, I think it was.

Scorched earth tactics = Karma is a bitch. Compared to the centuries of enslavement and torture on fellow human beings in order to become greedily wealthy,I have no sympathy for the victims of Sherman's march. Burning raping a pillaging is no better than the torture, forced labor,selling off of ones family and rape going on for centuries at the hand of slave masters. Maybe the south should remember when you do centuries of damage like that the equivalent of scorched earth tactic's, the black community tend not to forget also. They sure as hell don't want to see statues idolizing the idiots who tried to keep them enslaved. Would you? Yes you can argue that's not all the war was about and you'd be correct, but put yourself in their shoes. To the black community that's what these statues represent. Lets put these images of the past in proper context and move on. If private institutions want to continue or even buy these images and display them than that's their prerogative. Yale chose not to because it impacted their bottom line. These images should not be displayed on public land as hero's. They should be displayed on public land to teach about the evils of slavery and to keep alive American history for future generations.

BTW I'm sure that my sister's ex's family dug up the family silverware as soon as Sherman left. Sadly the ex in-laws probably have no Idea how pathetically stupid they sound in their century old complaint.

When you embarrass or threaten Institutions with boycotts and demonstrations to deny their origins and heritage --- you're not "winning" a damn thing. You're just stripping them of that legacy. And then everyone forgets WHY the Civil Rights movement and Reconstruction and the Civil War happened.

This was a conflict WITHIN FAMILIES. Brothers killing brothers. Not about the North and the South. It's far more complex than that.

I think it should be taken on a case to case basis. I.E. in the case of Yale's Calhoun college VP Calhoun was a vocal supporter of slavery. In the college there were stained glass windows depicting slaves picking cotton apparently in praise of Calhoun's beliefs. There was a black worker who was so annoyed with looking at those windows every day that he smashed one. Yale fired him but quickly buckled to public pressure and re-hired him. The question then becomes how do we balance keeping history without making a hostile environment? IMHO Yale should not have re-hired them employee who broke the window because he could have made Yale aware of his feelings and had them taken down. If they declined then he could go to the NAACP and the MSM and complain and they most certainly would have done something.

I have to admit I was appalled that this ever existed in the first place. Yale being in CT, a northern state and the college being founded in 1933, they couldn't have come up with something better Calhoun did to put on the window? The guy must have done something important that was worth while. I think the name should have stayed and the offending window or windows removed to another part of the college,perhaps a section dedicated to the history of Calhoun college to note Calhoun's unfortunate views on slavery without creating such a hostile environment.

The same goes for statues of Lee. These statues were clearly made to blow smoke in the face of northerners and blacks and have been doing so for far too long and creating a hostile environment and should be moved to a more suitable location IMHO. Now Lee was a brilliant general and should be admired for that but I seriously doubt that was the intention of the statue when it was first created.

Now in the case of the CT whipping post that I though should have stayed right where it was. Until some Librarian decided to have a demonstration of how it was used to whip slaves nobody knew what it was. For years people hung advertisements on the post thinking that's what it was for. The post wasn't just used on slaves it was also used to whip people who didn't pay their taxes AKA whites, but of course blacks made it all about them. After meeting with local black leaders the post was removed in the middle of the night and will be put in a museum across the street. Now considering it wasn't offensive to anybody for a couple of century's until the librarian's demonstration, It should have stayed. Perhaps with a plaque explaining what it was and what it was used for and pointing out that both blacks and whites were whipped. I'm glad it wasn't destroyed but in a way it was because it's no longer where it was erected 200+ years ago because of some thin skinned folks. It loses something in the move because you lose the location. If you are on the green you get a better perspective of the posts intention. It was not just meant for physical punishment but for humiliation and scare tactic's. It wasn't placed behind jail walls it was placed in a central spot for all to see so the person would be embarrassed and all who viewed them would take note not to make that mistake themselves. When they removed it they weakened the impact of the meaning of the device.

It's a hard subject to figure out and unfortunately not much thought of these objects historical meaning is being given whether it's Lee or the whipping post. Political officials are caving quickly to the screaming left so they don't lose votes instead of giving this the consideration it deserves.

 

[Marianne]

Scorched earth tactics = Karma is a bitch.

Yep, and you need to remember that, as well, bitch.

Wow's what that mean? The south will rise again? Hey just seems funny to me that people who put other people thought hell, ruined their lives, destroyed their families and took little consideration of their fellow man should complain when it's done to them on a much smaller scale. Is it awful? Yes, but maybe being on the receiving end for once gave them a better perspective of the atrocities they were committing personally in the name of money. Or maybe it didn't because they are still pining away for the good ole days and bitching about flatware that they no doubt recovered. 150 years later they are still pissed their slaves were't around to wash that flatware when they dug it out. Kind of shows you where their heads are at. Won't matter 100 years from now anyway because the way folks are interbreeding the USA will just be one big brown country. Then everyone will be offended equally and racists will find something else to hate.