Socialism is No Longer a Dirty Word

[Diuretic]

Spreading the Wealth at Plymouth Plantation

Also, try googling Pilgrims and socialism or simular phrases.

Edit: BTW, I think they called it "collective agriculture" or "collectivism" back in the day.

Collectivism is as old as humanity, but you'd hardly call it an economic theory.

Claude Henri de Rouvroy, comte de Saint-Simon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Xenophon]

Tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no, rich no more...

 

[Red Dawn]

Obviously, we need to deregulate the market even more, remove rules and restrictions, remove oversight, and unleash the magic and power of free markets.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Because it wasn't invented until a couple of hundred years later?

No, collective ownership was actually the norm during the middle ages. Moreso than feudalism, actually. The basic concepts of socialism are ancient, thus there is nothing "progressive" about progressivism. It is a reactionary throwback to Europe's dismal past.

As the Romans converted to Christianity in the 4th century A.D., they gave up the use of money and suffered a horrible economic decline. We are taught that the medieval economic system was feudalism. But this is a deliberate lie by modern historians. The system that emerged as Rome fell and the Middle Ages took its place was a dual system. One-third of the land was feudal (meaning that it was let as a favor by the feudal lord), and two-thirds of the land was communist (meaning that it was farmed collectively by the whole community with the product distributed via local politics).

Communism was abolished gradually in the Anglo-Saxon world by the Calvinists (and their predecessors the Lollards). Indeed, Communism was abolished in Plymouth Colony in 1623, and the First Thanksgiving was proclaimed to mark the successful harvest which resulted from the new system of private property. Private property was introduced into France in 1793 and spread across Europe during the 19th century.

As we turn the pages of the history of the Middle Ages, we find groups who took literally the teachings of Jesus. These groups were pacifist and communist and preached love. The 16th century Anabaptists (whose descendants are the Pennsylvania Amish) are one such group. The connection of these groups both with religious Christianity and with modern left-wing politics is very obvious. The division between Christian theology and left-wing politics occurred in the 19th century and is mostly due to Karl Marx. For 18½ centuries, the two were one.

The Gold Bug

Yes I can be serious. Free markets aren't useful in ensuring the best use of dwindling natural resources.

Umm the nations with the most economic freedom have the fewest shortages. When things become scarce, prices quickly go up, people conserve, and more producers come out of the woodwork with new supplies and new alternatives.

 

[NOBama]

Collectivism is as old as humanity, but you'd hardly call it an economic theory.

Collectivism/Socialism = same, IMO.

 

[chloe]

socialism produces mediocracy, people are for it because they get to steal other peoples money and spend it without feeling guilty. it is a dirty word.

 

[no1tovote4]

The Newspeak is working. Make sure nobody can even think an offensive thought by simply removing all 'offensive' words from the language, then repeat and repeat until people get used to other ideas. The best way to engineer the perfect 'socialist' model is to have socialists take over the schools and start making curriculum based in Newspeak.

Remove from their thoughts all 'offensive' ideas. Ensure they never even think to make a finger gun and say 'bang'...

 

[chloe]

The Newspeak is working. Make sure nobody can even think an offensive thought by simply removing all 'offensive' words from the language, then repeat and repeat until people get used to other ideas. The best way to engineer the perfect 'socialist' model is to have socialists take over the schools and start making curriculum based in Newspeak.

Remove from their thoughts all 'offensive' ideas. Ensure they never even think to make a finger gun and say 'bang'...

Pretty scary

 

[Diuretic]

No, collective ownership was actually the norm during the middle ages. Moreso than feudalism, actually. The basic concepts of socialism are ancient, thus there is nothing "progressive" about progressivism. It is a reactionary throwback to Europe's dismal past.



The Gold Bug



Umm the nations with the most economic freedom have the fewest shortages. When things become scarce, prices quickly go up, people conserve, and more producers come out of the woodwork with new supplies and new alternatives.

It's not about "progressivism", I was making the point that socialism is an economic theory and while it might have conceptual roots in the past it stands by itself as a mature economic theory with a particular pedigree.

I'm aware of the twin laws of demand and supply Baron, I was actually thinking more along the lines of shortage of natural resources on intranational and international lines. Free market theory is fine when there's plenty of stuff around to be in private hands. When there's not much stuff then the allocation of what's there can't be left in private hands. I can be accused of thinking of dystopia and I'll be prepared to wear that, but that's what I was thinking about.

 

[Diuretic]

Collectivism/Socialism = same, IMO.

If it's your opion then nothing I can say about it. But getting away from your opinion the fact is that they're different.

 

[Diuretic]

The Newspeak is working. Make sure nobody can even think an offensive thought by simply removing all 'offensive' words from the language, then repeat and repeat until people get used to other ideas. The best way to engineer the perfect 'socialist' model is to have socialists take over the schools and start making curriculum based in Newspeak.

Remove from their thoughts all 'offensive' ideas. Ensure they never even think to make a finger gun and say 'bang'...

I'm struggling to find the relevance of introducing Newspeak into the discussion of socialism. But if you could explain it I'd be appreciative.

 

[Diuretic]

Pretty scary

Newspeak has been around for many, many years.

"I misspoke" translated is, "I got it wrong" but more likely, "I lied"

 

[chloe]

The idea of having no freedom to speak, write, think or express individualism seems to me to be nullified in socialist and communist societies. If you want to be a commie/socialist move to china.

 

[Bern80]

Because it wasn't invented until a couple of hundred years later?

No, William Bradford tried socialism when he first arrived here (we're talking pilgrim times here well before the founding fathers. And as I said do to human nature it failed miserably and many ended up starving to death over the winter. They learned the hard way and quickly that socialism was not the way to go.

 

[Diuretic]

The idea of having no freedom to speak, write, think or express individualism seems to me to be nullified in socialist and communist societies. If you want to be a commie/socialist move to china.

You know there's no linkage between tyranny and socialism don't you?

 

[Diuretic]

No, William Bradford tried socialism when he first arrived here (we're talking pilgrim times here well before the founding fathers. And as I said do to human nature it failed miserably and many ended up starving to death over the winter. They learned the hard way and quickly that socialism was not the way to go.

I know nothing about William Bradford but I appreciate the reference because I can try and correct that situation (one of the great things about the internet isn't it?)

 

[Diuretic]

I read a few sources. Interesting. But socialism didn't do it. I'll give you an alternative - it was a mix of ignorance, religious fatalism and negligence. Since neither socialism nor capitalism were invented when the Plymouth Plantation was in existence then neither can be the cause. Is that reasonable?

 

[CSM]

You know there's no linkage between tyranny and socialism don't you?

Really???

I bet an argument could be made that one leads to the other.....

 

[NOBama]

I read a few sources. Interesting. But socialism didn't do it. I'll give you an alternative - it was a mix of ignorance, religious fatalism and negligence. Since neither socialism nor capitalism were invented when the Plymouth Plantation was in existence then neither can be the cause. Is that reasonable?

Sorry mate, it was a form of socialism regardless of the religious ideologies that brought them to it.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

You're not the only Socialist on this board, I'm right there with you. But in the right's eyes we're "dirty" people.

Or maybe thats because we're black socialists

Glad to hear I'm not alone my brother.