Socialism is No Longer a Dirty Word

[PubliusInfinitum]

John McCain's desperate attempts to smear Obama as a socialist during the last weeks of the campaign because of his defense of progressive income taxes are well behind us.

The notion that McCain bad mouthed Hussein is absurd on its face and a myth snatched from the leftist ether... McCain did everything but offer to BLOW Hussein... McCain's official ad chronically espoused view of Hussein is that he is a great 'honorable' guy who is well qualified to run the country.



Socialism is only accepted by those who are not capable of understanding that socialism stifles the creation of wealth and absent the creation of wealth... the PROMISES OF SOCIALISM ARE AN ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY!

Thus socialism is doomed due to its inherent catastrophic flaws; and as a result those would-be deomocratic cultures which are so foolish as to embrace socialism are likewise... DOOMED; with their catastrophic flaw being that a sufficient majority of their population are IMBECILES who have willfully, albeit erroneously, voted to enslave themselves.

 

[Agnapostate]

No, that was not any error that I have made. My position is that most people have absolutely no business in the decisions of any variety of work.

In that case, you are quite mistaken. Workers' self-management has revitalized businesses and enterprises, most notably in Argentina, where the Brukman Factory and Hotel Bauen of Buenos Aires, and the Fabrica Sin Patrones in Neuquen Province have thrived after the establishment of workers' self-management, a fundamental aspect of libertarian socialism. There is an involvement of about 15,000 workers in 200 democratically managed workplaces in Argentina taken over after the 2001 economic crisis.

It is a myth that socialism has ever worked in any large scale.. socialistic concepts can and will work in the small scale in areas such as hippie communes.. but it will never work in a large scale society that is based on freedoms... a socialist system will only "work" in a large scale with totalitarian controls. Free people will never embrace it as a society.

That is false. The libertarian socialist collectives of the Spanish Revolution are a clear refutation of that claim. The Spanish anarchist collectives are probably the greatest example of the widespread benefits of libertarian socialism, specifically anarchism, in action. The author Sam Dolgoff estimated that about eight million people were directly or indirectly impacted by the Spanish Revolution and the anarchist collectives, and about two million workers directly participated in the collectivization process. According to Antony Beevor, an author on the Spanish Revolution, "The total for the whole of Republican territory was nearly 800,000 on the land and a little more than a million in industry. In Barcelona workers' committees took over all the services, the oil monopoly, the shipping companies, heavy engineering firms such as Volcano, the Ford motor company, chemical companies, the textile industry and a host of smaller enterprises. . . Services such as water, gas and electricity were working under new management within hours of the storming of the Atarazanas barracks . . .a conversion of appropriate factories to war production meant that metallurgical concerns had started to produce armed cars by 22 July . . . The industrial workers of Catalonia were the most skilled in Spain . . . One of the most impressive feats of those early days was the resurrection of the public transport system at a time when the streets were still littered and barricaded."

Another author, Jose Peirats, writes that, "Preoccupation with cultural and pedagogical innovations was an event without precedent in rural Spain. The Amposta collectivists organised classes for semi-literates, kindergartens, and even a school of arts and professions. The Seros schools were free to all neighbours, collectivists or not. Grau installed a school named after its most illustrious citizen, Joaquin Costa. The Calanda collective (pop. only 4,500) schooled 1,233 children. The best students were sent to the Lyceum in Caspe, with all expenses paid by the collective. The Alcoriza (pop. 4,000) school was attended by 600 children. Many of the schools were installed in abandoned convents. In Granadella (pop. 2,000), classes were conducted in the abandoned barracks of the Civil Guards. Graus organised a print library and a school of arts and professions, attended by 60 pupils. The same building housed a school of fine arts and high grade museum. In some villages a cinema was installed for the first time. The Penalba cinema was installed in a church. Viladecana built an experimental agricultural laboratory.

The collectives voluntarily contributed enormous stocks of provisions and other supplies to the fighting troops. Utiel sent 1,490 litres of oil and 300 bushels of potatoes to the Madrid front (in addition to huge stocks of beans, rice, buckwheat, etc.). Porales de Tujana sent great quantities of bread, oil, flour, and potatoes to the front, and eggs, meat, and milk to the military hospital.

The efforts of the collectives take on added significance when we take into account that their youngest and most vigorous workers were fighting in the trenches. 200 members of the little collective of Vilaboi were at the front; from Viledecans, 60; Amposta, 300; and Calande, 500."

It is estimated that eight to ten million people were directly or indirectly affected by the Spanish anarchist collectives. Author Leval has estimated 1,700 agrarian collectives, with 400 for Aragon, (although other estimates have been above 500), 900 for Levant, 300 for Castile , 30 for Estremadura, 40 for Catalonia, and an unknown number for Andalusia. He estimates that all industries and transportation were collectivized in the urban areas of Catalonia, (and indeed, 75% of all of Catalonia was estimated to have been collectivized in some way), 70% of all industries in Levant, and an unknown percentage in Castile.

The victories and social and economic benefits promoted in the Spanish Revolution through the implementation of libertarian socialist ideals, such as the establishment of syndicalism, voluntary association, and workers self-management strongly suggests that anarchist and libertarian socialist theories and practices are of a practical nature.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

In my eyes, socialism per se has nothing directly to do with Tyranny.

LOL... it is hysterical that you can make that statement and in your next breath recognize the only potential ramification of socialism...

However, it can lead to tyranny via the following way:

{emphasis added}

Wrong... Socialism MUST LEAD TO TYRANNY... it cannot lead to anything BUT tyranny; no exceptions, no potenial for an alternative; because...

In a democratic socialist society, the "political class" would control both the gouverment and the (to a large part) economy. This could {WILL} lead to an enourmous concentration of power, and power corrupts{absolutely}.

 

[Tech_Esq]

That is false. The libertarian socialist collectives of the Spanish Revolution are a clear refutation of that claim. The Spanish anarchist collectives are probably the greatest example of the widespread benefits of libertarian socialism, specifically anarchism, in action. The author Sam Dolgoff estimated that about eight million people were directly or indirectly impacted by the Spanish Revolution and the anarchist collectives, and about two million workers directly participated in the collectivization process. According to Antony Beevor, an author on the Spanish Revolution, "The total for the whole of Republican territory was nearly 800,000 on the land and a little more than a million in industry. In Barcelona workers' committees took over all the services, the oil monopoly, the shipping companies, heavy engineering firms such as Volcano, the Ford motor company, chemical companies, the textile industry and a host of smaller enterprises. . . Services such as water, gas and electricity were working under new management within hours of the storming of the Atarazanas barracks . . .a conversion of appropriate factories to war production meant that metallurgical concerns had started to produce armed cars by 22 July . . . The industrial workers of Catalonia were the most skilled in Spain . . . One of the most impressive feats of those early days was the resurrection of the public transport system at a time when the streets were still littered and barricaded."

Another author, Jose Peirats, writes that, "Preoccupation with cultural and pedagogical innovations was an event without precedent in rural Spain. The Amposta collectivists organised classes for semi-literates, kindergartens, and even a school of arts and professions. The Seros schools were free to all neighbours, collectivists or not. Grau installed a school named after its most illustrious citizen, Joaquin Costa. The Calanda collective (pop. only 4,500) schooled 1,233 children. The best students were sent to the Lyceum in Caspe, with all expenses paid by the collective. The Alcoriza (pop. 4,000) school was attended by 600 children. Many of the schools were installed in abandoned convents. In Granadella (pop. 2,000), classes were conducted in the abandoned barracks of the Civil Guards. Graus organised a print library and a school of arts and professions, attended by 60 pupils. The same building housed a school of fine arts and high grade museum. In some villages a cinema was installed for the first time. The Penalba cinema was installed in a church. Viladecana built an experimental agricultural laboratory.

The collectives voluntarily contributed enormous stocks of provisions and other supplies to the fighting troops. Utiel sent 1,490 litres of oil and 300 bushels of potatoes to the Madrid front (in addition to huge stocks of beans, rice, buckwheat, etc.). Porales de Tujana sent great quantities of bread, oil, flour, and potatoes to the front, and eggs, meat, and milk to the military hospital.

The efforts of the collectives take on added significance when we take into account that their youngest and most vigorous workers were fighting in the trenches. 200 members of the little collective of Vilaboi were at the front; from Viledecans, 60; Amposta, 300; and Calande, 500."

It is estimated that eight to ten million people were directly or indirectly affected by the Spanish anarchist collectives. Author Leval has estimated 1,700 agrarian collectives, with 400 for Aragon, (although other estimates have been above 500), 900 for Levant, 300 for Castile , 30 for Estremadura, 40 for Catalonia, and an unknown number for Andalusia. He estimates that all industries and transportation were collectivized in the urban areas of Catalonia, (and indeed, 75% of all of Catalonia was estimated to have been collectivized in some way), 70% of all industries in Levant, and an unknown percentage in Castile.

The victories and social and economic benefits promoted in the Spanish Revolution through the implementation of libertarian socialist ideals, such as the establishment of syndicalism, voluntary association, and workers self-management strongly suggests that anarchist and libertarian socialist theories and practices are of a practical nature.

I hate to break it to you but Spain, not really big. USSR, China = Big. Spain...not so big. At any rate if the comparison is being made for application to the US....if it's purely academic....have it as you like it.

 

[Agnapostate]

I hate to break it to you but Spain, not really big. USSR, China = Big. Spain...not so big. At any rate if the comparison is being made for application to the US....if it's purely academic....have it as you like it.

USSR, China = state capitalist.

The population issue is not relevant because libertarian socialism is of a decentralized and grassroots nature.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Socialism is STILL indeed a dirty word

It is a system, bound for failure, for it forces mediocrity... It can only work with severe government controls... It removes the incentive for achievement and success... It rewards sloth by ensuring the basics to underperformers and those who fail.... It fails to accept that people wish to gain from their efforts and better their own families and own self before being forced to support others thru their efforts and earnings

It is a myth that socialism has ever worked in any large scale.. socialistic concepts can and will work in the small scale in areas such as hippie communes.. but it will never work in a large scale society that is based on freedoms... a socialist system will only "work" in a large scale with totalitarian controls. Free people will never embrace it as a society.

The trouble with socialism is summed up in the old Soviet worker's lament: They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work.

 

[Tech_Esq]

USSR, China = state capitalist.

The population issue is not relevant because libertarian socialism is of a decentralized and grassroots nature.

Stalin disagrees with your characterization of the USSR.

 

[Agnapostate]

Stalin disagrees with your characterization of the USSR.

Stalin is wrong, and is himself a state capitalist. As is Lenin. The Soviet Union was state capitalist rather than socialist because socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production. Thus, any legitimate version of socialism necessitates democratic management of it. The means of production are not collectively "owned" if control of them is consolidated in the hands of party and Politburo officials, as it was in the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union was hostile to libertarian socialism, as evidenced by the outlawing of anarchism, the suppression of the Kronstadt Rebellion, the betrayal of Nestor Makhno and the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine, and the funding of the authoritarian socialist groups among the Popular Front that sabotaged anarchist militias in Spain.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

... libertarian socialism...

ROFLMNAO... CLASSIC oxymoron. Employee owned business is nothing even REMOTELY SOCIALISTIC. CO-OPS are not socialistic... Now this is based upon the simple fact that SOCIALISM is founded upon the strict control of the production of LABOR BY THE GOVERNMENT... This idiocy where you people want to lean on the pedantic letter that socialism is production controlled by 'the people' is absurd.

It's analogous to the theory that an aircraft which is designed and constructed in the general design profile of a rock will be controlled by its pilot... when in reality practice the controlling element will be the force which propels it and GRAVITY; the pilot will amount to little more than a passenger which will be subjected to the certainty that once it is set in motion, it has little control except to wait and witness the impact...

 

[DiamondDave]

In that case, you are quite mistaken. Workers' self-management has revitalized businesses and enterprises, most notably in Argentina, where the Brukman Factory and Hotel Bauen of Buenos Aires, and the Fabrica Sin Patrones in Neuquen Province have thrived after the establishment of workers' self-management, a fundamental aspect of libertarian socialism. There is an involvement of about 15,000 workers in 200 democratically managed workplaces in Argentina taken over after the 2001 economic crisis.



That is false. The libertarian socialist collectives of the Spanish Revolution are a clear refutation of that claim. The Spanish anarchist collectives are probably the greatest example of the widespread benefits of libertarian socialism, specifically anarchism, in action. The author Sam Dolgoff estimated that about eight million people were directly or indirectly impacted by the Spanish Revolution and the anarchist collectives, and about two million workers directly participated in the collectivization process. According to Antony Beevor, an author on the Spanish Revolution, "The total for the whole of Republican territory was nearly 800,000 on the land and a little more than a million in industry. In Barcelona workers' committees took over all the services, the oil monopoly, the shipping companies, heavy engineering firms such as Volcano, the Ford motor company, chemical companies, the textile industry and a host of smaller enterprises. . . Services such as water, gas and electricity were working under new management within hours of the storming of the Atarazanas barracks . . .a conversion of appropriate factories to war production meant that metallurgical concerns had started to produce armed cars by 22 July . . . The industrial workers of Catalonia were the most skilled in Spain . . . One of the most impressive feats of those early days was the resurrection of the public transport system at a time when the streets were still littered and barricaded."

Another author, Jose Peirats, writes that, "Preoccupation with cultural and pedagogical innovations was an event without precedent in rural Spain. The Amposta collectivists organised classes for semi-literates, kindergartens, and even a school of arts and professions. The Seros schools were free to all neighbours, collectivists or not. Grau installed a school named after its most illustrious citizen, Joaquin Costa. The Calanda collective (pop. only 4,500) schooled 1,233 children. The best students were sent to the Lyceum in Caspe, with all expenses paid by the collective. The Alcoriza (pop. 4,000) school was attended by 600 children. Many of the schools were installed in abandoned convents. In Granadella (pop. 2,000), classes were conducted in the abandoned barracks of the Civil Guards. Graus organised a print library and a school of arts and professions, attended by 60 pupils. The same building housed a school of fine arts and high grade museum. In some villages a cinema was installed for the first time. The Penalba cinema was installed in a church. Viladecana built an experimental agricultural laboratory.

The collectives voluntarily contributed enormous stocks of provisions and other supplies to the fighting troops. Utiel sent 1,490 litres of oil and 300 bushels of potatoes to the Madrid front (in addition to huge stocks of beans, rice, buckwheat, etc.). Porales de Tujana sent great quantities of bread, oil, flour, and potatoes to the front, and eggs, meat, and milk to the military hospital.

The efforts of the collectives take on added significance when we take into account that their youngest and most vigorous workers were fighting in the trenches. 200 members of the little collective of Vilaboi were at the front; from Viledecans, 60; Amposta, 300; and Calande, 500."

It is estimated that eight to ten million people were directly or indirectly affected by the Spanish anarchist collectives. Author Leval has estimated 1,700 agrarian collectives, with 400 for Aragon, (although other estimates have been above 500), 900 for Levant, 300 for Castile , 30 for Estremadura, 40 for Catalonia, and an unknown number for Andalusia. He estimates that all industries and transportation were collectivized in the urban areas of Catalonia, (and indeed, 75% of all of Catalonia was estimated to have been collectivized in some way), 70% of all industries in Levant, and an unknown percentage in Castile.

The victories and social and economic benefits promoted in the Spanish Revolution through the implementation of libertarian socialist ideals, such as the establishment of syndicalism, voluntary association, and workers self-management strongly suggests that anarchist and libertarian socialist theories and practices are of a practical nature.

Ahh... and a supporter of anarchism (another system that will not work in large scale), lecturing on socialism...

I can find authors that support that communism is a workable system as well.. and I have seen inane authors touting everything from anarchism to complete authoritarianism...

the facts are the facts... it is an unworkable social system unless there are extreme controls enforced by a ruling elite... and that, in itself, is against anything remotely close to a free society based on laws, equality, and personal freedoms

 

[NO!bama08]

"John McCain's desperate attempts to smear Obama as a socialist during the last weeks of the campaign because of his defense of progressive income taxes are well behind us. Now that Obama's economic team has been named, primarily from the center-right, the question is more likely to be whether he is still a left-wing Democrat. But the attacks were a sign of how far right the Republicans had gone in questioning a policy"

McCain is far right? LOL. He's just to the left of center at best. 8th choice of the original 8 for me.

 

[Agnapostate]

ROFLMNAO... CLASSIC oxymoron. Employee owned business is nothing even REMOTELY SOCIALISTIC. CO-OPS are not socialistic... Now this is based upon the simple fact that SOCIALISM is founded upon the strict control of the production of LABOR BY THE GOVERNMENT... This idiocy where you people want to lean on the pedantic letter that socialism is production controlled by 'the people' is absurd.

Libertarian socialism is redundant. Libertarianism originated as a leftist and egalitarian philosophy, and is still identified as such around the world. The perverted American form that masquerades as "libertarianism" is capitalism's trojan horse, and not a legitimate form of libertarianism. You are unfamiliar with any legitimate conception of socialism, having been led to believe the myth that the Soviet Union and its satellite states were "socialistic" in any legitimate sense of the word. This is false.

It's analogous to the theory that an aircraft which is designed and constructed in the general design profile of a rock will be controlled by its pilot... when in reality practice the controlling element will be the force which propels it and GRAVITY; the pilot will amount to little more than a passenger which will be subjected to the certainty that once it is set in motion, it has little control except to wait and witness the impact...

It is not analogous to any such theory, and that is utterly absurd. If you seek a fitting analogy, consider the most commonly used one to illustrate the parallels between state and capitalist tyranny.

Suppose a man were to directly tackle and assault you and rip your valuables out of your pockets. We would honestly call this robbery. But suppose that instead of this direct assault, a man were to point a gun at you and demand that you hand over your valuables. We would honestly call this robbery also. The first case was one of direct brutality, but in the second case, you technically "consented" to hand over your valuables. You had no viable alternative, because your alternative was to be shot, at which point you would be injured or dead. The first example is analagous to state tyranny: brutal and effective. The second example is analagous to capitalist tyranny: You technically "consent" to subordinate yourself to an employer and work for a wage, but as with the analogy, you have no viable alternative.

Ahh... and a supporter of anarchism (another system that will not work in large scale), lecturing on socialism...

All legitimate anarchists are socialists.

I can find authors that support that communism is a workable system as well.. and I have seen inane authors touting everything from anarchism to complete authoritarianism...

You can indeed find authors that make such claims, but what you will NOT find is results of the nature that I have illustrated. What you will NOT find are industries that are legitimately democratically managed by the workers involved in them of the nature that existed during the Spanish Revolution.

the facts are the facts... it is an unworkable social system unless there are extreme controls enforced by a ruling elite... and that, in itself, is against anything remotely close to a free society based on laws, equality, and personal freedoms

Such a system is indeed opposed to those things. Such a system as existed in the Spanish Revolution, the Free Territory of Ukraine, and continues to exist in the parts of Chiapas controlled by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation is the most potent form of support for those things that has existed.

So yes, the facts are the facts, despite you having ignored them.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

USSR, China = state capitalist.

The population issue is not relevant because libertarian socialism is of a decentralized and grassroots nature.

There is no such thing as libertarian socialism... libertarianism and socialism are antithetical concepts.

 

[XVZ]

In that case, you are quite mistaken. Workers' self-management has revitalized businesses and enterprises, most notably in Argentina, where the Brukman Factory and Hotel Bauen of Buenos Aires, and the Fabrica Sin Patrones in Neuquen Province have thrived after the establishment of workers' self-management, a fundamental aspect of libertarian socialism. There is an involvement of about 15,000 workers in 200 democratically managed workplaces in Argentina taken over after the 2001 economic crisis.

I am not mistaken. Most people are clueless when it comes to what is best for a company. Their decisions will largely revolve around 'what is in it for me me me'? As is the case of the UAW, you know, a business that is highly competitive and requires well paid skilled workers such as engineering and designers and not overpaid labor fucks.

 

[Agnapostate]

There is no such thing as libertarian socialism... libertarianism and socialism are antithetical concepts.

Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Libertarian socialism is the original school of libertarianism that existed and the term "libertarianism" has only been corrupted in the past century in the United States by figures such as Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard.

So on the contrary, there is no such thing as "libertarian capitalism" because libertarianism and capitalism are antithetical concepts, as such figures as Pierre Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, and Peter Kropotkin have noted.

I am not mistaken. Most people are clueless when it comes to what is best for a company. Their decisions will largely revolve around 'what is in it for me me me'? As is the case of the UAW, you know, a business that is highly competitive and requires well paid skilled workers such as engineering and designers and not overpaid labor fucks.

You are indeed mistaken. Thanks for blatantly ignoring the examples that I cited.

 

[XVZ]

You are indeed mistaken. Thanks for blatantly ignoring the examples that I cited.

You mean like the way you ignore an example that is applicable and more relevant as it exists within the USA?

 

[Agnapostate]

You mean like the way you ignore an example that is applicable and more relevant as it exists within the USA?

That is not an example of anything but the failures of a capitalist economy.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Stalin is wrong, and is himself a state capitalist. As is Lenin. The Soviet Union was state capitalist rather than socialist because socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production. Thus, any legitimate version of socialism necessitates democratic management of it. The means of production are not collectively "owned" if control of them is consolidated in the hands of party and Politburo officials, as it was in the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union was hostile to libertarian socialism, as evidenced by the outlawing of anarchism, the suppression of the Kronstadt Rebellion, the betrayal of Nestor Makhno and the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine, and the funding of the authoritarian socialist groups among the Popular Front that sabotaged anarchist militias in Spain.

ROFLMNAO...

It's always the same with these nimrods... The SOCIALIST PLAYERS of HISTORY were 'wrong,' but the academic theorists who have never actually applied Socialism to a state, there's no potential for them being wrong... NOoooooo.

The Soviet Union was hostile to that which challenged its AUTHORITY... Socialism cannot exist outside of a centralized AUTHORITY; this because, for example, I would tell you and your Socialist effort to kiss my capitalist ASS... I would resist ANY AND ALL EFFORTS TO CONFISCATE THE PRODUCT OF MY LABOR... thus without a centralized authority; where I existed, Socialism would not exist; what's more, where I had contact with others, I would undermine such authority at every given opportunity... thus it would be necessary for the Socialist system to crush me and my constantly growing movement which existed purely to shine the light of reason on the tyrannical lies which are socialism, promoting FREEDOM, a concept which those struggling under the burden of socialism cannot RESIST.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

That is not an example of anything but the failures of a capitalist economy.

It is an absolute impossibility for capitalism to fail...

 

[Agnapostate]

ROFLMNAO...

It's always the same with these nimrods... The SOCIALIST PLAYERS of HISTORY were 'wrong,' but the academic theorists who have never actually applied Socialism to a state, there's no potential for them being wrong... NOoooooo.

The Soviet Union was hostile to that which challenged its AUTHORITY... Socialism cannot exist outside of a centralized AUTHORITY; this because, for example, I would tell you and your Socialist effort to kiss my capitalist ASS... I would resist ANY AND ALL EFFORTS TO CONFISCATE THE PRODUCT OF MY LABOR... thus without a centralized authority; where I existed, Socialism would not exist; what's more, where I had contact with others, I would undermine such authority at every given opportunity... thus it would be necessary for the Socialist system to crush me and my constantly growing movement which existed purely to shine the light of reason on the tyrannical lies which are socialism, promoting FREEDOM, a concept which those struggling under the burden of socialism cannot RESIST.

That is blatantly false. There would be no "authority to undermine" because there would be no hierarchical authority and no state.

You continue to ignore the examples of the Spanish Revolution, the Free Territory, etc. that I have cited, ignorancewhich provides a fertile ground for your baseless assertions.