So we want to talk about individualism

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

 

[Sunni Man]

.
.......................................................

 

[Montrovant]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

 

[IM2]

Fail!

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person

Fail, IM2 mah niqqa!

Nah it doesn't fail. You just don't want to read the whole thing.

And you can stop using that word nigga.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

 

[MarathonMike]

<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.

The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.

 

[IM2]

<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.

The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.

I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.

 

[Dale Smith]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

 

[MarathonMike]

<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.

The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.

I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.

If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.

 

[usmbguest5318]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented

Emboldened text:
Lord, I wish I knew. The phenomenon is not limited to verbal exchanges. I know only that many are the posts I've written on USMB whereof someone responds to me as though "this or that" statement (or linked content) in it just wasn't there. I see those remarks and wonder, as does DeAngelo: WTF?...are "you" ignorant, illiterate, full-on stupid, or willfully being obtuse/boorish. I suspect in some cases it's a combination of some or all of those traits.

why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence “answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life?

Amen!

Not everything can be discussed, explained, understood and/or resolved in the space of a "tweet." Yet that often enough is all the "grey matter" many people seem willing to devote to "anything" these days.

So what was Sue and Bill's point?

Who the hell knows? I suspect they "Bill" and "Sue" might, yet I'm not 100% certain they know. Even if they know, what's obvious is that they and others like them rarely, if ever, articulate it, that is, where "it" is a point (more aptly, a case, conclusion/inference or argument) that is completely sound and, in the case of points that are solely expositive accurate.

For my part, I think white racists in the U.S. realize that reductions or the end of racism means they'll need to compete on a level playing field in every way with non-whites. Understandably, if one has privilege of some sort, one is trepidacious about losing it, so trepidacious that they don't cotton to anything that might diminish whatever advantage it be they get for nothing other than the happenstance of having been born of a given race. While most whites realize that the end of racism necessarily means they'd have to be better in "whatever" way, few are willing to openly acknowledge that is so and that they don't like it.

I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups....The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized.

I agree with that assertion because most people take the argument, its implications, and actionable axioms too far. If one has a sound argument and makes it, all is well. If one overextends otherwise sound inferences derived from a sound argument, one moves from having a sound argument to arguing via reductio ad absurdum.

Humans are social beings. Membership in a group is innate to our being, as is our individuality. How one manages one's group membership and interactions with members of other groups is every bit as important as how one manages oneself, without regard to group membership, as an individual. Accordingly, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with individualism, but there's plenty amiss with individualism taken too far.

My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered?

That may be so for many or most white Americans. It's rarely so in the U.S. so for most or many non-whites.

It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us.

The divisions existed long before there became a national conversation about them, their causes and their effects. The divisions won't wane merely because they are "swept under the rug" of silence.

 

[LOIE]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

In the last pages of "Separate Pasts, Growing Up White in the Segregated South," Melton McLaurin shares his visit with an older Black gentleman he had known while growing up.

He asked him about how Wade's white folks liked Black men serving on the town council. "There are some who aren't happy with the situation, but they can't do nothing about it. For the most part, we get along. There's people of my race I don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that you don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that I'd rather be with than some of my race. But the racism is still there."

He pauses a beat in his response, glancing away, as if searching for just the right words to capture the way in which race and racism continue to impact the community. He faces me again and speaks slowly, forcefully, the words coming from deep within him. "It's in you, and it's in me, and that's the truth, down there inside us. That's just the way it it."

I get in the car and am filled with a deep, sorrowful anger. It does not diminish as I drive from Wade to Wilmington to continue to struggle with the difficult necessity of confronting our separate pasts."

I believe that since individuals form communities, those individuals must come together to honestly confront and deal with the racism that has been so ingrained in us. As Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

 

[Montrovant]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

Is the answer to that to push the idea of looking at people based on race? Perhaps we are not at the point where people are judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin, but this article seems to be almost celebrating that idea; to say that whites need to judge other whites by the color of their skin.

I still don't see why only whites are able to see others as individuals, while non-whites apparently only see others as members of a group, according to the author.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Fail!

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person

Fail, IM2 mah niqqa!

Nah it doesn't fail. You just don't want to read the whole thing.

And you can stop using that word nigga.

That's mighty magnamimous of you to inform me of that.

However, bitch, unless you're around my hood, and wanna tell me that to my face, things will go on just as they have for 30 years plus, ok?

I hear "nigga" 5x a day. Don't even try to get on no high horse with me.

A) You're a yankee, on that note alone, you can GFY.

B) You're a prejudice myopic turd. Again, GFY.

You know what them girls told me when there were civil rights marches on 9th street?

"Oh, stay away from there today, they busin' niggas in from up North to stir up trouble"

They were actually full-grown women, but truer words have never been spoken, baby. I loved them women, went to one of their funerals. We were like family.

Save that for whatever hood you say you live in. I don't want tp hear it. I don't use the word and I damn sure don't want no white boy calling me one.

Okay, yankee faggot racist black boy. Make you feel better?

You wish you was a real nigga.

You're a sad sack. Where I come from, there's a lotta Crackas, and a lotta niggas too.


Somehow we ain't got some kinda shit-ton of hate for each other. In fact, just the opposite.

What are they putting in the water where you live?

OT:
So much for taking the high road. Both of you.

 

[IM2]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

 

[ptbw forever]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.

You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.

 

[Natural Citizen]

It's funny how whites...

eht eht eht. How are you gonna talk about Individualism if you immediately start off collectivizing? Jiminy crickets.

Gosh, IM2. I'm sorry, I didn't read any further than that. I couldn't. Ya killin me, man. Ya killin me.

Do you know why we can't talk about Individualism in an intellectually honest way? I'll tell you why. It's because somebody...who I won't say...ahem, ahem, starts a thread with the first four words being ''It's funny how whites...."

As I've told you several times elsewhere, racism is just an ugly form of collectivism. Again, collectivism is the mindset that views humans as members of groups rather than Individuals. So why start a dicussion about Individualism in such an ugly collectivist way. You're being intellectually dishonest and collectivist from the start. Either that or you're just ignorant to the fact, I'm sorry.

Sigh. Collectivists gonna collectivize. lolol.

 

[IM2]

<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.

The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.

I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.

If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.

I've met plenty of people. And I say what I do because that is what I have seen And I've seen pretty much all 50 states and most major cities, The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference. And like I have said, I don't see whites saying that only some blacks commit crimes. or that there are some black unwed mothers, so until that is consistently done by whites no one wants to be lectured by someone white about seeing whites as individuals. Institutional racism is still plenty prevalent. You don't get to post make believe like its true.

This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
By Mia Mercado
Mar 15 2017

The roots of racism run deep. They permeate our culture beyond the existence of racial slurs and persist regardless of our first black president. To see examples of systemic racism, you don’t even need to look far. If you have gone to school, lived in a house, had a job, or been to the doctor, you’ve likely been hurt or helped by institutional racism at some point in your life.

Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is defined as the pattern of social and political systems discriminating against a group of people based on race. If you’re wondering how a school or a bank or any “thing” or “system” can be racist, ask yourself who runs those “things” and “systems.” A government or any other institution is created and run by human beings. While a building or a document cannot itself hold prejudice or beliefs (on account of...they’re made of bricks and/or paper), human beings are more than capable of holding prejudicial beliefs, and in turn, creating systems that reflect those beliefs.

My “But slavery was abolished and hate crimes are illegal” senses are tingling; this is usually the part in the conversation where laws established or struck down are used as examples of why institutional racism can’t exist. If Equal Employment Opportunity Laws make it federally illegal, how can job discrimination based on race persist? Oh, sweet, naive, hypothetical question. Making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If that were the case, murders would never happen and even if they did, they would all be solved and the victim brought justice. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unsolved murders still very much exist. Like, there are whole basic cable channels dedicated to them.

Institution racism is real. Systemic bias exists. Here are just seven examples of how our systems treat people of color differently — and how it shows that institutional racism is still a very real problem.

This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem

This is an article written 8 months ago. I don't think institutional racism ended in the past 8 months. Some of us need to quit lying to ourselves about this and others need to quit calling people who tell the truth about how such things exist racists. So you look throughout our history, whites have always been looked at as individuals. Whites have been the ones with the problem recognizing the individuality of others. This argument about individualism is bogus because that is not the intent of the argument. The current argument is used to try forcing others to shut up about the consistent racism that is in our society today.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.

You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.

No it has not been debunked and you have been described this system over and over and over in your lifetime.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

eht eht eht. How are you gonna talk about Individualism if you immediately start off collectivizing? Jiminy crickets.

Gosh, IM2. I'm sorry, I didn't read any farther than that. I couldn't. Ya killin me, man. Ya killin me.

That's because you are a coward. This nation was built on and those like you maintain the very system you claim to be against.

Like I said, it's funny how whites want to talk about individualism ONLY when white racism is being shown to them. After all fool, liberal is a collective term and you use that frequently to classify people. That's why I say you are a fucking fake.

 

[IM2]

Nah it doesn't fail. You just don't want to read the whole thing.

And you can stop using that word nigga.

That's mighty magnamimous of you to inform me of that.

However, bitch, unless you're around my hood, and wanna tell me that to my face, things will go on just as they have for 30 years plus, ok?

I hear "nigga" 5x a day. Don't even try to get on no high horse with me.

A) You're a yankee, on that note alone, you can GFY.

B) You're a prejudice myopic turd. Again, GFY.

You know what them girls told me when there were civil rights marches on 9th street?

"Oh, stay away from there today, they busin' niggas in from up North to stir up trouble"

They were actually full-grown women, but truer words have never been spoken, baby. I loved them women, went to one of their funerals. We were like family.

Save that for whatever hood you say you live in. I don't want tp hear it. I don't use the word and I damn sure don't want no white boy calling me one.

Okay, yankee faggot racist black boy. Make you feel better?

You wish you was a real nigga.

You're a sad sack. Where I come from, there's a lotta Crackas, and a lotta niggas too.


Somehow we ain't got some kinda shit-ton of hate for each other. In fact, just the opposite.

What are they putting in the water where you live?

OT:
So much for taking the high road. Both of you.

Bah! I'm from the real world down south.

He's some yankee racist nigga, fuck him! He don't make ary a one of our worlds go 'round 'round heanh.

No sir he does not! We do quite well for ourselves, thank you.

If you think a southern nigga would give ary a fuck about the bullshit you spew here, you would definitely be mistaken.

I have relatives living in the south. I know you are quite incorrect.