So we end NAFTA, and then what? What is it right wingers think will happen?

[Care4all]

does the oil we buy from mexico become more expensive without the NAFTA agreement? Will our oil companies get hit with tariffs for pumping oil there and shipping it here?

 

[Moonglow]

The oil from Pemex is current market value price indexing..No tariffs are imposed..Mexico's oil reserves are controlled by the nation owned and operated petroleum company Pemex..

 

[Care4all]

The oil from Pemex is current market value price indexing..No tariffs are imposed..Mexico's oil reserves are controlled by the nation owned and operated petroleum company Pemex..

so, does NAFTA affect the importing of oil? If it goes away, can tariffs be imposed?

 

[Moonglow]

The oil from Pemex is current market value price indexing..No tariffs are imposed..Mexico's oil reserves are controlled by the nation owned and operated petroleum company Pemex..

so, does NAFTA affect the importing of oil? If it goes away, can tariffs be imposed?

The agreement does not allow tariffs without penalties being imposed or jurisprudence action..

 

[Andylusion]

What's sad is NAFTA is probably one of the better trade agreements..... labor price in Canada is equal or more expensive than here and Mexico is less than us but probably getting paid 2 to 3 times more than labor in China, Taiwan, VietNam and most of Asia....

btw, what in the world do we import from Mexico? Food? Tequila? Cars? or is OIL our biggest import from Mexico?

I just don't see many things that say ''made in mexico'' on the label, while near everything says ''made in china''....

We do get molta from Mexico...

i had to look that up in the urban dictionary

But that's the black market, and it's doin' just fine with or without a treaty!

I'll give you a more informative answer.

Products that the United States imports from Mexico (2014)

According to the OEC, which is an MIT project (I wager collecting millions in government grants).....

We import roughly $290 Billion in products from Mexico.

The largest single portion of which, as you guessed.... is Crude oil, at $26 Billion. So while it is the single largest import... it's still only 9% of the products we get from Mexico.

The rest are various goods ranging from fully built cars (namely the VW Jetta, and some Honda models), to food products, medical supplies, and even precious metals.

The largest section of imports is equipment, which ranges from computers, to telephones, to refrigerators, air pumps and street lights.

The primary reason you generally don't see "made in Mexico" on much, is because the products we import from Mexico, tend to either be large expensive things, like Tractor Trailers, Delivery Vans, industrial electrical transformers, and industrial furnaces.... or they tend to be items that are used to make other products. For example, Mexico sold to us, almost $7 Billion dollars in seats. Seats in busses, seats in aircraft, seats put into your car. You could be putting your butt on a Mexican imported seat every time you drive.

Equally we tend to export to Mexico, tons of refined oil products, and many built goods, and additionally we sell tons of production equipment. For example, metal molds, chemical compounds, control systems, and so on.

What you will notice though, is that many of the exact same things are both imported and exported to, and from, the exact same countries.

All the same things listed that we import from Mexico, we also export to Mexico.

For example, VW has their assembly plant in Mexico, but the Engine plant is located in the US.
At the same time, Ford's diesel engine is built in Mexico, but assembled into a car, here in the US.

So when you see Mexico is importing car engines, and exporting car engines at the same time... it seems to defy logic. In reality, we export computers to Mexico, and import computers from Mexico. We export chemicals to Mexico, and import chemicals from Mexico.

Same with cars. We import cars from Mexico. We also export billions of dollars worth of cars to Mexico. Manufacturers who have cars they can't sell, can often export them to Mexico and recoup some of the loss. And of course millions of used cars are shipped south as well.

This is why, no matter what limitation on free-trade we put in place, it will hurt US, the most. Protectionism will always harm the country engaging in it, the most.

Nearly all of the jobs I've had, used imported goods to build their products. The job I'm at right now, does this. Most of those jobs would cease to exist, if protectionism was implemented, and free-trade was repealed.

 

[Andylusion]

The oil from Pemex is current market value price indexing..No tariffs are imposed..Mexico's oil reserves are controlled by the nation owned and operated petroleum company Pemex..

so, does NAFTA affect the importing of oil? If it goes away, can tariffs be imposed?

The agreement does not allow tariffs without penalties being imposed or jurisprudence action..

Huh? She asked if NAFTA goes away.... can tariffs be imposed.

The answer to that question is yes.

We can leave the agreement... if we want to. I think that's a bad plan, but we could if we wanted to, and jack up tariffs on the oil. Of course Mexico will jack up tariffs on all US goods. And we would likely then jack up tariffs on all Mexican goods.

And then millions on millions of Americans would be out of jobs, at the same time that the cost of most of the goods on the market would go up.

Mexico on the other hand, which cheap labor, plenty of willing employees, and free-trade with the rest of the world, would gain investment elsewhere.

We on the other hand, would likely end up in a depression.

 

[KissMy]

What's sad is NAFTA is probably one of the better trade agreements..... labor price in Canada is equal or more expensive than here and Mexico is less than us but probably getting paid 2 to 3 times more than labor in China, Taiwan, VietNam and most of Asia....and Indonesia.

btw, what in the world do we import from Mexico? Food? Tequila? Cars? or is OIL our biggest import from Mexico?

I just don't see many things that say ''made in mexico'' on the label, while near everything says ''made in china''....

We do get auto parts & appliances from Mexico. Sadly they are now inferior to the Chinese parts.

Gaining more trade partners is a great thing. Having tax laws subsidizing the rich & big business who eliminate & export jobs wile increasing payroll taxes & inflation on US workers is stupid. Small business create nearly all jobs. Small businesses are created by poor & middle class workers. Those are the ones who should be subsidized by cutting payroll taxes & increasing taxes on the rich who don't create jobs or invent new innovative products that advance the economy or civilization.

 

[anotherlife]

There have been many, many posts on this site about NAFTA and employment.

It's true, Ohio has lost 300,000 jobs since NAFTA was signed. The country has lost millions of jobs since NAFTA. But if the US is losing so many jobs to Mexico, and even China, then why are China and Mexico also losing jobs?

It's called Technology and automation. And you can't ban those. We have no trade agreement with Technology and Automation.

The only thing you can do is get an education and join. Or support. But support will generally be low paying jobs. And that's it. That's all you can do. One or the other.

Can you do it with education? Ever since this was realized, a new national student loan scheme was invented that guarantees that you pay out all your future earnings before you earn it even if you get a job after your education.

Also the technology and automation based worldwide job reduction affects every job, including all educated jobs too.

 

[Fueri]

We supply a huge medical device manufacturer with components for imaging systems. They have just completed the relocation of the manufacture of those products to Mexico. Our first shipment to Monterey went out wednesday.

The assertions that these aren't real jobs or that there is a skills gap or that robots are doing these jobs are utter bullshit, at least in this case.

Hundreds of people in Milwaukee and Madison that used to have decent paying jobs don't any longer all the way on up to engineering, which was sent to india. Labor cost was the primary driver. Yeah, nafta!

Watching good paying jobs sucked out of this country while people stand and watch, or argue that this is actually good for us, or that its just robots, or that the skills just arent here, is one the the most patently insane things I've seen in my lifetime. Total fucking nonsense. It's about the bottom line and nothing else.

 

[Disir]

What is the point of getting an education that you cannot pay back because those jobs have been outsourced? Too bad you weren't having a knipshit when R&D was outsourced, huh?

That would be a good question if it were true.

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

I didn't say education is bullshit. There is no jobskills gap, asshat. None. You continuously perpetuate this myth which is one of the most harmful lies to have come about.

Remember this?
The 'Skills Gap' Myth | The Progressive

 

[rdean]

What's sad is NAFTA is probably one of the better trade agreements..... labor price in Canada is equal or more expensive than here and Mexico is less than us but probably getting paid 2 to 3 times more than labor in China, Taiwan, VietNam and most of Asia....

btw, what in the world do we import from Mexico? Food? Tequila? Cars? or is OIL our biggest import from Mexico?

I just don't see many things that say ''made in mexico'' on the label, while near everything says ''made in china''....

We do get molta from Mexico...

And Taco Trucks on every corner.

 

[rdean]

That would be a good question if it were true.

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

I didn't say education is bullshit. There is no jobskills gap, asshat. None. You continuously perpetuate this myth which is one of the most harmful lies to have come about.

Remember this?
The 'Skills Gap' Myth | The Progressive

It's an opinion piece. Notice no mention of automation anywhere in the article. And if China and Mexico are losing jobs, then where are they going? I'm a progressive and I know bullshit when I read it. Even if someone ignorantly labels busllshit progressive, it's still bullshit.
When farmers moved into cities at the beginning of the industrial revolution, was there a skills gap then? Of course there was. Now that we have robots and programming, of course we have a skills gap now. You don't just know how to program a CNC machine. And now most have 3d capabilities. It takes practice, study and experience.

All those employers looking for qualified workers and you say there is no jobskills gap. What do you do for a living? Eat candy? Even begging takes skills. Funny, the same skills Donald Trump has. Getting other people's money.

 

[Care4all]

We supply a huge medical device manufacturer with components for imaging systems. They have just completed the relocation of the manufacture of those products to Mexico. Our first shipment to Monterey went out wednesday.

The assertions that these aren't real jobs or that there is a skills gap or that robots are doing these jobs are utter bullshit, at least in this case.

Hundreds of people in Milwaukee and Madison that used to have decent paying jobs don't any longer all the way on up to engineering, which was sent to india. Labor cost was the primary driver. Yeah, nafta!

Watching good paying jobs sucked out of this country while people stand and watch, or argue that this is actually good for us, or that its just robots, or that the skills just arent here, is one the the most patently insane things I've seen in my lifetime. Total fucking nonsense. It's about the bottom line and nothing else.

FYI-


NAFTA is only the trade agreement between Mexico Canada and the USA, NORTH American Trade Agreement....

so if those Wisconsin jobs went to India as you mentioned, it was not NAFTA that made that happen but some other trade agreement.

 

[beagle9]

What is the point of getting an education that you cannot pay back because those jobs have been outsourced? Too bad you weren't having a knipshit when R&D was outsourced, huh?

That would be a good question if it were true.

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

. If you think that everything hinges on a college education in this nation now, then you are an idiot. Sorry.

 

[Care4all]

That would be a good question if it were true.

America has near record 5.8 million job openings

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

. If you think that everything hinges on a college education in this nation now, then you are an idiot. Sorry.

it doesn't yet, but it it seems like it will... at least for better paying jobs...

 

[beagle9]

What's sad is NAFTA is probably one of the better trade agreements..... labor price in Canada is equal or more expensive than here and Mexico is less than us but probably getting paid 2 to 3 times more than labor in China, Taiwan, VietNam and most of Asia....and Indonesia.

btw, what in the world do we import from Mexico? Food? Tequila? Cars? or is OIL our biggest import from Mexico?

I just don't see many things that say ''made in mexico'' on the label, while near everything says ''made in china''....

. Nothing fair or good about any of it, and it's killing our jobs here. The effects on society over time is how we should gauge this stuff, but undoubtedly we are being fooled or we are fools now, so which is it ? It's one or the other, because there is no other answer by what we have seen. The answer by government is to expand entitlements until what maybe 75% of us are dependent on freebies ? Is this what we wanted for this nation as a result of globalism? Sick situation.

 

[beagle9]

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

. If you think that everything hinges on a college education in this nation now, then you are an idiot. Sorry.

it doesn't yet, but it it seems like it will... at least for better paying jobs...

. What are we going to do, start devaluing college educations, and start passing out diploma's like food stamps in order to save everyone ? That was Bernie dummy Sanders & Hillary dipstick Clintons idea with making college free. I bet the colleges are sitting back thinking bring on the subsidizing just like the corporate health insurance companies did. How dang foolish can this nation be ????

 

[guno]

There have been many, many posts on this site about NAFTA and employment.

It's true, Ohio has lost 300,000 jobs since NAFTA was signed. The country has lost millions of jobs since NAFTA. But if the US is losing so many jobs to Mexico, and even China, then why are China and Mexico also losing jobs?

It's called Technology and automation. And you can't ban those. We have no trade agreement with Technology and Automation.

The only thing you can do is get an education and join. Or support. But support will generally be low paying jobs. And that's it. That's all you can do. One or the other.

They think cletus's shoelace factory will come streaming back to flyover country, trump is lying to these people

 

[Disir]

The job skills gap is a major reason why there are still high levels of part-time workers and underemployment in the U.S. economy today. It's why many Americans feel disgruntled about the economy.

Try again. Now, you know why Democrats are considered pieces of shit.

Uh, HELLOOOOOOOOO. Knock Knock dumbass. Why do you think education is such a major part of the Democratic Party Platform? Huh Einstein? Can't figure that out?

The lazy ass GOP base is being promised unskilled high paying jobs by the worlds biggest con artist Donald Trump. And they are swallowing his bullshit hook, line and sinker.

The dumb motherfucker here is you. Fuck you. You are the one swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker or worse. You know better and you are lying through your teeth. The Democrats are just filthy pieces of shit.

You just keep believing that education is bullshit and has nothing to do with good paying jobs.
Pity you can't get overtime working that street corner. Takes a looot of crumpled singles to pay rent, doesn't it?

I didn't say education is bullshit. There is no jobskills gap, asshat. None. You continuously perpetuate this myth which is one of the most harmful lies to have come about.

Remember this?
The 'Skills Gap' Myth | The Progressive

It's an opinion piece. Notice no mention of automation anywhere in the article. And if China and Mexico are losing jobs, then where are they going? I'm a progressive and I know bullshit when I read it. Even if someone ignorantly labels busllshit progressive, it's still bullshit.
When farmers moved into cities at the beginning of the industrial revolution, was there a skills gap then? Of course there was. Now that we have robots and programming, of course we have a skills gap now. You don't just know how to program a CNC machine. And now most have 3d capabilities. It takes practice, study and experience.

All those employers looking for qualified workers and you say there is no jobskills gap. What do you do for a living? Eat candy? Even begging takes skills. Funny, the same skills Donald Trump has. Getting other people's money.

That's right, no mention of automation anywhere in the article. What does that tell you? Automation does not play the part you wish it did. Sure there will be an impact by automation but not at the level you are trying to hide behind. How the fuck do you manage to sleep at night or look in the mirror?

Let me introduce you to this:
O-1 Visa: Individuals with Extraordinary Ability or Achievement

A phony STEM shortage and the scandal of engineering visas -- how American jobs get outsourced

https://thinkprogress.org/clinton-c...high-skill-visas-6260d388751f?gi=4a011763eec1

http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2016/03/displaced-american-stem-workers-spur-senate-hearing

Outsourcing the law to India | Need to Know | PBS

TD Bank to outsource 35 Lewiston jobs - The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

http://www.self.com/story/outsourcing-radiology-dangers

University of California hires India-based IT outsourcer, lays off tech workers

outsourcing Search Results

The North American Free Trade Agreement (NATFA) was the door through which American workers were shoved into the neoliberal global labor market.

By establishing the principle that U.S. corporations could relocate production elsewhere and sell back into the United States, NAFTA undercut the bargaining power of American workers, which had driven the expansion of the middle class since the end of World War II. The result has been 20 years of stagnant wages and the upward redistribution of income, wealth and political power.

NAFTA affected U.S. workers in four principal ways. First, it caused the loss of some 700,000 jobs as production moved to Mexico. Most of these losses came in California, Texas, Michigan, and other states where manufacturing is concentrated. To be sure, there were some job gains along the border in service and retail sectors resulting from increased trucking activity, but these gains are small in relation to the loses, and are in lower paying occupations. The vast majority of workers who lost jobs from NAFTA suffered a permanent loss of income.


Second, NAFTA strengthened the ability of U.S. employers to force workers to accept lower wages and benefits. As soon as NAFTA became law, corporate managers began telling their workers that their companies intended to move to Mexico unless the workers lowered the cost of their labor. In the midst of collective bargaining negotiations with unions, some companies would even start loading machinery into trucks that they said were bound for Mexico. The same threats were used to fight union organizing efforts. The message was: “If you vote in a union, we will move south of the border.” With NAFTA, corporations also could more easily blackmail local governments into giving them tax reductions and other subsidies.

Third, the destructive effect of NAFTA on the Mexican agricultural and small business sectors dislocated several million Mexican workers and their families, and was a major cause in the dramatic increase in undocumented workers flowing into the U.S. labor market. This put further downward pressure on U.S. wages, especially in the already lower paying market for less skilled labor.

Fourth, and ultimately most important, NAFTA was the template for rules of the emerging global economy, in which the benefits would flow to capital and the costs to labor. The U.S. governing class—in alliance with the financial elites of its trading partners—applied NAFTA’s principles to the World Trade Organization, to the policies of the World Bank and IMF, and to the deal under which employers of China’s huge supply of low-wage workers were allowed access to U.S. markets in exchange for allowing American multinational corporations the right to invest there.
NAFTA’s Impact on U.S. Workers


I am a liberal. I recognize bullshit when I read it especially if it's being spewed from an alleged liberal. There is no job skills gap. None. You are a neoliberal asshole.

 

[Fueri]

We supply a huge medical device manufacturer with components for imaging systems. They have just completed the relocation of the manufacture of those products to Mexico. Our first shipment to Monterey went out wednesday.

The assertions that these aren't real jobs or that there is a skills gap or that robots are doing these jobs are utter bullshit, at least in this case.

Hundreds of people in Milwaukee and Madison that used to have decent paying jobs don't any longer all the way on up to engineering, which was sent to india. Labor cost was the primary driver. Yeah, nafta!

Watching good paying jobs sucked out of this country while people stand and watch, or argue that this is actually good for us, or that its just robots, or that the skills just arent here, is one the the most patently insane things I've seen in my lifetime. Total fucking nonsense. It's about the bottom line and nothing else.

FYI-


NAFTA is only the trade agreement between Mexico Canada and the USA, NORTH American Trade Agreement....

so if those Wisconsin jobs went to India as you mentioned, it was not NAFTA that made that happen but some other trade agreement.

I am aware of the countries party to nafta. See the first paragraph of my post.

Engineering went to India. The rest went to mexico. Engineering, not quality or process engineering, but development, which is what was referring to, was 5-6 guys. I know, as they were my direct counterparts at times. The rest of the 350+ jobs are now in mexico.

And the larger point is that this is still happening. Want to write off those jobs already gone? Whatever, but that's not even the whole issue.

Change the incentives, change the math, change the outcome. There are things we can do, despite all of these claims to the contrary.